400 Whelen

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well, there IS a guy on another forum who is likely running 270 Win to modern belted mag pressure claiming 2250 (and i have no reason to doubt him) experimenting with some more modern 223 powders. Most of the guys running 400's are using 4895. I really need to buy QL and play with some powder options.

Milehighshooter
Just ran some numbers thru load from a disc, the best I could come up with was a,400 grain @ 2,000 fps and that was at 52,000 cup or about 60,000 psi. That's with modern powders as well including cfe223 that was only 1800 fps loaded at 100%. Older powders like 3031 did better. Looked at about 8 different powders and 4 different bullets.
Cheers mate Bob
Sorry to rain on your parade but 400 grains at 2,000fps will still get the job done
I could be wrong

 

[Milehighshooter]

Cheers Bob! I may very well hit you up for some load ideas. Although really, I just need to suck it up (and take a break from buying guns) and invest in QuickLoad

 

[35400Whelen]

I bought a 400 Whelen last year. I was doing some looking just today to send some info to some one and found this. Read through it and had to join.

As to all the comparison of the 400 Whelen to the 450/400, from my loads I have worked up and with data I have found the 400W. falls between the 450/400 and the 404 Jeffrey. Yes if the 450/400 is in a strong action it may very well do more than loading manual list, as with many old cartridges. But what firearm they are in is not the only limitation, the cartridge case is. I do not know how strong the 450/400 case is. The 45-70 has three levels of loading based on the firearm it is to be used in because it is a strong case and can handle hotter loads than rifles it was originally offered in. Maybe the 450/400 is same.

I found some load info on Ammo Guide and have posted my loads on there. I also got a lot of help from two guys on another site . One is from Alaska and has did a lot load development with the 400 Whelen, having well over 1500 rounds fire in load testing plus caribou and moose.

The other gentleman has used his in Africa on a number of game up to and including cap buffalo. His load is CFE223 with a 400 gr. Woodleigh at 2255. I do not know his powder charge and forget his over all cartridge length (it is longer than mine). He told me to start with 63gr.

My loads I feel are near max to max in my rifle, I worked them up over my Caldwell chronograph. I will not list my powder charge here but will give bullets and velocity. I used CFE223 powder in all loads.
Hornady 300gr. flat point 2430 fps.
Swift 350gr. A-Frame 2327 fps.
Hornady 400gr. DGX 2150 fps.
Swift 400gr. A-Frame 2177 fps.

I hope this info is helpful.

 

[crs]

IMHO, (and that of a gun maker/450/400 shooter friend) any good 400 grain .411 bullet at or around 2100 fps will do for Cape Buffalo. The 400 Whelen does meet that requirement. Speeds above 2100 fps should be as good or even better with the proper bullets. With increased velocity, increased recoil may be noticed.

Even my old fashioned Wimchester 1895 .405 pushing a .411 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore at just under 2100 fps falls into the magic 450/400 performance range and terminates large critters effectively. It does the same on water buffalo with 300 grain NF FPS at 2250 fps. You will not be under gunned with the 400 Whelen.
Good hunting!

 

[crs]

Bob Nelson said
"Sorry to rain on your parade but 400 grains at 2,000fps will still get the job done
I could be wrong."

Bob is not wrong - he is correct!

 

[35400Whelen]

The 40 calibers are all pretty darn good cartridges, it's just all in witch one you like or prefer.
No rain, no argument about 2000fps, at that speed a 400gr. bullets is still a thumper.
I am just able to get a little more with no pressure signs and the recoil is not bad, an the accuracy is very good.
It's all good and fun, good bullets and most important is shot placement.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I once did an article for Gun World doing just that. Was able to safely match .450/400 velocities with 400 gr bullets in a Ruger No.1. The .405 case holds just slightly more than the .400 Whelen according to the Manual of Cartridge Conversions.
SAAMI pressures mostly apply to factory ammunition as 99 percent of handloaders have no access to pressure testing equipment. Sort of moot really.
That SAAMI gives numbers to follow does not mean that most rounds cannot be loaded to similar pressures, especially like the .270/'06 comparison. It mostly depends on the platform in use. Pressures for the .405 Win were developed for primarily lever actions, like the Win 1895, (for which it was developed) which is a pretty strong action, but the same round in a stronger rifle can be run up somewhat more in performance. Its uncharted territory for some, but careful attention to pressure signs can usually keep most out of trouble.
400 grs at 2150 in a Ruger No.1 .405 Win gets your attention.

Sestoppelman
That's why I get the velocity I do out of my 35 Whelen. Instead of loading it to the old 46 to 48,000 cup of old I load it closer to 270 and 25 ought 6 pressures. The 280 and 06 greatly benefit d o ing the same thing. As you said if done correctly it can be done safely.
Bob

 

[Milehighshooter]

35400Whelen,

That thread on the other sight is what got me to do mine (I'm on that thread towards the later 1/3) and a member there is who built my gun.

Im about to start trimming all my QC brass down so I can start necking and fireforming this weekend.

Im also curious about that cfe load, as its slower than 4895, and mart has issues with anything slower than RL15. Of course cfe is a balk powder IIRC.

 

[35bore]

Got my gun back from the smith! My first big bore (ok big-medium)

Dpcd (Tom Jackson) on AccRel, did the work. Its his custom contour, which is based on the "Duke of Marlborough" contour (very similar to a Brit stalker/Rigby highlander). Douglas .410 bbl 1:14 twist. This is the Petrov/G&H/ Original Whelen correct chamber, not the copy cat chamber that got the bad rep for head space issues.

M70 Classic 24" Douglas bbl. It is going to be sent out for cerakote here shortly after I sella few more items.

Dies are in the way. This should throw a 400 gr bullet around 2125-2160, but I think i'll try to find a good load with a North Fork 360 gr bullet, which has an SD of .301 and should easily hit 2250+ for +4000 ft-lbs. Do believe that'll knock a buff down. Those are the same numbers as the 450/400 with the same bullet.

Right now it's wearing a Zeiss Terra 3X 2-7x32 for test fitment and pictures. May move my Leupold 1-4x20 over from my 375 or buy a FX-II 3x20 or Weaver Classic V 1-3×20. Heck may even try out a Weaver Classic 4x32 Ive got sitting around.

View attachment 262206 View attachment 262207 View attachment 262208 View attachment 262209 View attachment 262210

Definitely at the top top of my dream cartridges. I dont reload , so i would have find someone for "Custom reloads) but that's beside the point. Super congratulations on one spectacular build!

 

[35400Whelen]

35400Whelen,

That thread on the other sight is what got me to do mine (I'm on that thread towards the later 1/3) and a member there is who built my gun.

Im about to start trimming all my QC brass down so I can start necking and fireforming this weekend.

Im also curious about that cfe load, as its slower than 4895, and mart has issues with anything slower than RL15. Of course cfe is a balk powder IIRC.

Mart is very knowledgeable with the 400 Whelen. Gunner500 is too, he is the one that uses cfe223, an that load is what he used in Africa. Mart looked at the burn rate and said it look like cfe223 would be a good chose. Both said my loads looked good. I use QC brass, it has been working grate, get your die set right and your good to go.

 

[Milehighshooter]

@35400Whelen

Im going to play around with a few in that range that I haven't seen much testing on like Ramshot and maybe Hunter and TAC and maybe one of the enduron powders from IMR. The more we all test the more info we can all share!

What dies did you go with?

 

[Milehighshooter]

Ramshot Big Game not hunter*

 

[Rick Cox]

Going to be a sweetheart! I’ve got a 375 Whelen AI and love it.
+1 on Glenrock Blue, they do wonderful work and a short drive up from Denver.
Cheers,
Cody

That sounds interesting as well. What kind of velocities does it get?

 

[Rick Cox]

That's interesting. So you are saying Whelen used a 458 WM as the parent cartridge? Or a cylinder parent case with the base body diameter of the 458 WM (standard mag base dia of .513") with or without a belt, necked it down and called it a 400 Whelen? Or what?- lost me I guess. In that case it is simply a 400-458 or something? ... then yes obviously no headspace issue.

When you say 458 shoulder- what does that mean? If it means .458" as the shoulder diameter, the official specs I have for the 400 Whelen using the 30-06 parent case show a shoulder diameter of .462" which provides even a greater shoulder than the .458". The neck diameter shown is .436" with a .405" bullet or .441" with a 410" bullet. No matter really as either shoulder (or bullet) simply doesn't provide sufficient shoulder for positive head spacing.

The specs I have for the 35 Whelen, 375 Whelen and 400 Whelen all use the same parent case- the 30-06. Is there a SAAMI chamber spec you could show for a reamer for a correct "400 Whelen" if one were to order such a custom rifle to be built? And exactly what brass is used if one were to build a correct "400 Whelen" rifle then load for it?

Don't get me wrong, I think, for example, if you wildcatted a 458 WM into a 400 cal (actually 410?), it'd be a good cartridge. But maybe a little too tight a niche given the 416 Taylor is close and already established.

You may find this useful:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.400_Whelen

 

[Milehighshooter]

That sounds interesting as well. What kind of velocities does it get?

That reminds me that I want a 375 Whelen too haha!! That'll be a rebored 1903, peep sights and a sporterized Type C stock

 

[35400Whelen]

@35400Whelen

Im going to play around with a few in that range that I haven't seen much testing on like Ramshot and maybe Hunter and TAC and maybe one of the enduron powders from IMR. The more we all test the more info we can all share!

What dies did you go with?

My dies are CH4D, I got them with the rifle and my first batch of Quality Cartridge brass. I was glade I was able to get it all together and from the guy that had it built, that way I felt I had a better chance of every thing being right, and it is. I love it. Dies work grate

 

[Bullthrower338]

You may find this useful:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.400_Whelen

To be honest I haven’t even got around to shooting it with the LabRadar yet. My best figuring though is around 2600 or so with a 250 game king. I get surprisingly good groups with it shooting it to fire form. I will shoot it in the next couple weeks and report back accurate data.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

35400Whelen,

That thread on the other sight is what got me to do mine (I'm on that thread towards the later 1/3) and a member there is who built my gun.

Im about to start trimming all my QC brass down so I can start necking and fireforming this weekend.

Im also curious about that cfe load, as its slower than 4895, and mart has issues with anything slower than RL15. Of course cfe is a balk powder IIRC.

Milehighshooter
CFE 223 sits between Varget/2208 and H4350/2209. Yes it is a ball powder, burn rate says it shouldn't work but it does and does it well in a whole host of cartridges.
Bob

 

[35400Whelen]

Milehighshooter
CFE 223 sits between Varget/2208 and H4350/2209. Yes it is a ball powder, burn rate says it shouldn't work but it does and does it well in a whole host of cartridges.
Bob

I have had good results with CFE223 in 30-30 Win. and 400 Whelen, I will be trying it in a number of other cartridges too. If I get good results in them I will have few powders to have to get. The only problem there may be getting enough of it.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have had good results with CFE223 in 30-30 Win. and 400 Whelen, I will be trying it in a number of other cartridges too. If I get good results in them I will have few powders to have to get. The only problem there may be getting enough of it.

Milehighshooter
I know the feeling my friend. Winchester stopped importing cfe223, Hogdon superformance and Winchester powders into Australia so once my stash is gone it's gone.
Fortunately I found out what was to happen so I stocked up on cfe223 to the tune of 5 kilos of it and 2 and a half kilo of superformance.
Cheers mate Bob