.375 should be banned from buffalo hunts!

[Andrew62]

When I hunted buffalo in Australia my guide carried a 30.06 and his rental gun was a 30.06. I used my own .375H&H, shot 2 buffaloes, they both dropped at the shot. I have to imagine with your logic you're thinking 'they'd have dropped quicker with a 416 Rigby!'

 

[Red Leg]

What I am saying is that the buffaloes that injured or killed someone after being shot with a 375 would not have been as many if they had been shot with a 416. In other words, fewer people would have been harmed.

The majority of wounded buffalo that manage to hurt or kill people do so because the client failed in his only real responsibility - placing the first shot in exactly the right spot. A 400 gr .416 is no more lethal in the wrong spot than a 300 gr .375. I would further argue that on an in-bound buffalo, neither the .375 nor the .416 represent stopping rifles. That buffalo will have to be either brained or spined in the neck with either. It is one of the arguments made by one of the most experienced PH's I know in Moz whose "back-up" rifle is a .375 (rather like that Don Heath fellow and his 9.3x62).

The average DG hunter going to Africa will hunt one buffalo. A few will hunt a couple. A very small minority will hunt multiple ones. I would suggest that first time client is best armed with the rifle and sighting system that is the easiest and most natural transition from the deer rifle he or she uses at home. I do not believe anything beats a scoped .375 for that job - unless perhaps a 9.3. In other words, with a .375 a client is more likely to do his one job successfully than with something else.

If we then consider client accuracy and confidence in his first shot, that makes an apples and oranges comparison of the .375 and .416 and any "obvious" conclusions rather suspect.

One other point. I have owned a number of forties. I currently own a .404, 500/416, .450, and a .470. I shoot them all very accurately. When traveling internationally on 10-14 day hunt, the last thing I want to do is schlep multiple rifles. In my experience to date, nothing does it all better than a .375.

Finally, you chose your avatar. I assume you expected a reaction. You have had a couple. It looks like someone trying to express their inner Mark Sullivan. Sorry if I drew the wrong conclusion. Nós somos quem fingimos ser. (Kurt Vonnegut)

 

[375er]

Are your arguments so weak that you resort to ridiculing an avatar photo? Where have the good manners and the exchange of real experiences gone? And I thought people here were serious...

Aqui tá cheio de filhos da puta como em qualquer outro lugar! e corno também, muitos deles!!!

Not really sure where you are going with this. Piles upon piles of buffalo have been stacked up with the .375. Can bigger calibers be more effective, sure I won't argue that, but......most people do not shoot guns with more recoil than a .375 very well and a poorly place shot is as useless as using a .22 rim fire. There are far to many factors involved to always say "bigger is better".

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

When I hunted buffalo in Australia my guide carried a 30.06 and his rental gun was a 30.06. I used my own .375H&H, shot 2 buffaloes, they both dropped at the shot. I have to imagine with your logic you're thinking 'they'd have dropped quicker with a 416 Rigby!'

I did the same thing many times with an old .308, open sights, a horrible, poorly assembled military Mauser using FMJ ammunition diverted from the army. And when I did it, I was just a 17-year-old kid completely inexperienced when it came to dangerous game. It worked several times, until the day it didn't! I was saved by a miracle! It's not when the first shot lands well that we should be observing the performance of small calibers. It's when the first shot lands poorly and you know the rest won't be enough to save you! We only have one life, never do the shit I did, level things up... Buffalo hunting is pure statistics, one of them will go all out, and you don't know if it will be the first or the last. Always level up, use at least a .416.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

The majority of wounded buffalo that manage to hurt or kill people do so because the client failed in his only real responsibility - placing the first shot in exactly the right spot. A 400 gr .416 is no more lethal in the wrong spot than a 300 gr .375. I would further argue that on an in-bound buffalo, neither the .375 nor the .416 represent stopping rifles. That buffalo will have to be either brained or spined in the neck with either. It is one of the arguments made by one of the most experienced PH's I know in Moz whose "back-up" rifle is a .375 (rather like that Don Heath fellow and his 9.3x62).

The average DG hunter going to Africa will hunt one buffalo. A few will hunt a couple. A very small minority will hunt multiple ones. I would suggest that first time client is best armed with the rifle and sighting system that is the easiest and most natural transition from the deer rifle he or she uses at home. I do not believe anything beats a scoped .375 for that job - unless perhaps a 9.3. In other words, with a .375 a client is more likely to do his one job successfully than with something else.

If we then consider client accuracy and confidence in his first shot, that makes an apples and oranges comparison of the .375 and .416 and any "obvious" conclusions rather suspect.

One other point. I have owned a number of forties. I currently own a .404, 500/416, .450, and a .470. I shoot them all very accurately. When traveling internationally on 10-14 day hunt, the last thing I want to do is schlep multiple rifles. In my experience to date, nothing does it all better than a .375.

Finally, you chose your avatar. I assume you expected a reaction. You have had a couple. It looks like someone trying to express their inner Mark Sullivan. Sorry if I drew the wrong conclusion. Nós somos quem fingimos ser. (Kurt Vonnegut)

Although I disagree with your technical and well-founded opinion, I accept different points of view. I don't know what you've lived, what you've hunted, what experiences you've had; I don't know you. Everyone forms their own opinions based on their own stories. I know it doesn't interest you, but I assure you that my convictions are based on pure and simple practice. The only thing I've done in my life was hunt, all over South America, Africa, and some European countries.

Today I'm 49, but I've lived about 100 years, almost all of it spent in the bush, but in the bush as a poor man sleeping on the ground by the fire. One day, with luck, we'll sit down and talk about hunting.

Regarding the criticism of the avatar photo that you unfairly ridiculed, without knowing who it belonged to, it's been there for years; it was simply something that was easy to upload when I registered here. The people I look up to don't do TV shows; they live in jungles like the Amazon and hunt monkeys with blowguns. They also live in the hot forests of the Zambezi Delta and the banks of the Rouma River in northern Mozambique. They are the real hunters with whom I've had the privilege of traveling extensively and learning a lot.

Hugs, no hard feelings.

PH Cristinao Furtado, the avatar guy!

 

[BourbonTrail]

The majority of wounded buffalo that manage to hurt or kill people do so because the client failed in his only real responsibility - placing the first shot in exactly the right spot. A 400 gr .416 is no more lethal in the wrong spot than a 300 gr .375. I would further argue that on an in-bound buffalo, neither the .375 nor the .416 represent stopping rifles. That buffalo will have to be either brained or spined in the neck with either. It is one of the arguments made by one of the most experienced PH's I know in Moz whose "back-up" rifle is a .375 (rather like that Don Heath fellow and his 9.3x62).

The average DG hunter going to Africa will hunt one buffalo. A few will hunt a couple. A very small minority will hunt multiple ones. I would suggest that first time client is best armed with the rifle and sighting system that is the easiest and most natural transition from the deer rifle he or she uses at home. I do not believe anything beats a scoped .375 for that job - unless perhaps a 9.3. In other words, with a .375 a client is more likely to do his one job successfully than with something else.

If we then consider client accuracy and confidence in his first shot, that makes an apples and oranges comparison of the .375 and .416 and any "obvious" conclusions rather suspect.

One other point. I have owned a number of forties. I currently own a .404, 500/416, .450, and a .470. I shoot them all very accurately. When traveling internationally on 10-14 day hunt, the last thing I want to do is schlep multiple rifles. In my experience to date, nothing does it all better than a .375.

Finally, you chose your avatar. I assume you expected a reaction. You have had a couple. It looks like someone trying to express their inner Mark Sullivan. Sorry if I drew the wrong conclusion. Nós somos quem fingimos ser. (Kurt Vonnegut)

I laughed at your quote, there’s too much truth there. I love a 416, but I can’t fault you for mastering your 375 and being consistent in your admiration of it.

As with all the eye poke threads….

 

[375Fox]

This is not necessary, the intention was not to be controversial, it was just to provoke a good debate. I remain firm in my convictions, but I also accepted the opinion that a client who does not feel comfortable shooting with a 416, can be more accurate and kill buffalo with a 375... It was already worth it, the debate already added something to me, it was already useful to me.

If you wanted a professional debate I’d suggest writing your initial post differently next time. It appears more an attempt to be a troll than have a serious debate.

You said buffalo hunting is statistics. Here they are written professionally from a different outfitter.

Thread 'Is Bigger Always Better?'

Dec 7, 2020

I thought this group may enjoy this article I wrote in the latest African Gazette.
A link to that particular issue (of which Divan Labuschagne, one of our great PHs, also took the cover picture):

Let me know your thoughts....

• ndumo HUNTING SAFARIS
• Replies: 62
• Forum: Articles

• 

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

In honor of two bosses here on the forum, I updated my avatar picture! I'm no longer a follower of Mark Sulivan, find another reason!

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Not really sure where you are going with this. Piles upon piles of buffalo have been stacked up with the .375. Can bigger calibers be more effective, sure I won't argue that, but......most people do not shoot guns with more recoil than a .375 very well and a poorly place shot is as useless as using a .22 rim fire. There are far to many factors involved to always say "bigger is better".

I don't want to go anywhere, I just said and defend that based on everything I did, saw and experienced in real life... if I could choose I would never shoot a buffalo again with anything smaller than a 416 Rigby!!! I don't want to influence anyone, I just left my opinion, everyone hunts with what they think is most effective! Calm down! No caliber has killed more buffalo in Africa than the 375, but because it is the most used, in real practice itself... the difference between it and a 416v, both placed in vital points... is huge in favor of the 416!

 

[Spearhead]

I wish Jerome would do a preorder for AH hats. Did I get off topic?

 

[375er]

I don't want to go anywhere, I just said and defend that based on everything I did, saw and experienced in real life... if I could choose I would never shoot a buffalo again with anything smaller than a 416 Rigby!!! I don't want to influence anyone, I just left my opinion, everyone hunts with what they think is most effective! Calm down! No caliber has killed more buffalo in Africa than the 375, but because it is the most used, in real practice itself... the difference between it and a 416v, both placed in vital points... is huge in favor of the 416!

I am not worked up at all. Shoot what you want. You came on here with a post worded for controversy. I gave a response to your opinion. Have a good night.

 

[mrpoindexter]

I would agree with your assessment generally that 375 is bare minimum and possibly even inadequate for buffalo, then I see buffalo dead as yesterday, by a few other caliber
Like 9.3 , 45-70 , 35whelen, I even have a pansy ass bow hunting buddy who killed one with his bow and arrow.
I lean toward a .416 or a.404 Jeffrey on shoulder shooting buffalo , but alas my 375Ruger with 300gr TSX @ 2625fps will have to make do till then!
I know shot placement is absolutely crucial and wouldn’t feel naked at all standing against a buffalo with a 9.3x62 especially if the person’s more recoil sensitive,
1st shot counts the most !

I have taken 3 Cape buffalo with archery gear. I agree that the first shot is the one that counts the most. Luckily for me, I have taken all three with a single arrow each. The first was an 81# draw weight and 844 grain arrow. Second was a 70# bow and 650 grain arrow. Third was with an 82# draw weight and 965 grain arrow.

First shot placement is also crucial with archery. Shoot the wrong place and there is no amount of draw weight that will make the shot lethal. We often do not get the luxury of a follow up shot. I certainly wouldn't want to try and track a wounded buffalo with a bow, although I have done it on water buffalo.

When I hunted buffalo in Australia my guide carried a 30.06 and his rental gun was a 30.06. I used my own .375H&H, shot 2 buffaloes, they both dropped at the shot. I have to imagine with your logic you're thinking 'they'd have dropped quicker with a 416 Rigby!'

Taking an archery variant and my experience above, a lighter arrow can and will do it, but there isn't as much room for error if you hit a bone. The right show, the animal goes down and goes down quick, but if the arrow is in the wrong place, no amount of extra draw weight and arrow mass is likely to help.

While a good shot will work just fine even with a relatively light bow (for CB), I would not set out for buffalo with a 70lb bow. The difference here vs the .375 though is that 70lbs on a bow is below the legal requirement for Cape buffalo. Just as lesser rounds have taken buffalo, it is generally accepted that you should not be hunting them with a 30-06.

 

[Flipper Dude]

I won’t say idiot. I’ll just say idiotic comment

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

If you wanted a professional debate I’d suggest writing your initial post differently next time. It appears more an attempt to be a troll than have a serious debate.

You said buffalo hunting is statistics. Here they are written professionally from a different outfitter.

Thread 'Is Bigger Always Better?'

Dec 7, 2020

I thought this group may enjoy this article I wrote in the latest African Gazette.
A link to that particular issue (of which Divan Labuschagne, one of our great PHs, also took the cover picture):

Let me know your thoughts....

• ndumo HUNTING SAFARIS
• Replies: 62
• Forum: Articles

• 

Your tip is noted, my commander. I apologize if I was provocative. That really wasn't my intention, so there's no need for such fury! Breathe, have a beer!

Regarding data, statistics, reports, films, stories, NONE of this replaces our own experiences. I really don't know how to say this without sounding presumptuous, without sounding like I'm bragging, because I'm not. The fact is, I've spent the last 33 years of my life hunting buffalo, months on end.

In Brazil, we don't pay for them; ranchers beg us to hunt them because the feral animals destroy everything, fences, animals kill people... I've hunted hundreds of them, several weighing over a ton, from the swamps to the Amazon rainforest... I could spend a whole night sending you photos of what I'm saying to prove the truth. I recognize a water buffalo hybrid (Carabaí, Marajoara, Murrah, Jafarabadi, or Mediterranean) by its smell and foot size.

They can withstand more punishment (gunshots) than any African buffalo you've ever seen, because they're born and raised in water. It's as if they've been in a gymnasium their entire lives. Their muscle fibers are powerful, and their lungs are much larger. One day I'll tell and show you the punishment they endured from a .505 Gibbs.I respect everyone's opinion, but no one on this planet will be able to change my mind about the superior killing power of the .416 over the .375 HH or any other .375, not after so many years using both calibers together, not after the number of buffalo and other things I've hunted with them.

 

[revturbo9967]

This is not necessary, the intention was not to be controversial, it was just to provoke a good debate. I remain firm in my convictions, but I also accepted the opinion that a client who does not feel comfortable shooting with a 416, can be more accurate and kill buffalo with a 375... It was already worth it, the debate already added something to me, it was already useful to me.

It’s still clickbait. Buffalo are wounded from poor shots, not the caliber. If you hit any buffalo in the vitals with a good quality bullet, it will die. That’s a fact.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

I won’t say idiot. I’ll just say idiotic comment

Maybe it's less idiotic than you think, the idiot responsible for the idiotic post invites you to read the constructive debates that the "unfortunate" post is generating.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

It’s still clickbait. Buffalo are wounded from poor shots, not the caliber. If you hit any buffalo in the vitals with a good quality bullet, it will die. That’s a fact.

Now we've reached an interesting point: killing even a .223 kills a buffalo. The time it takes to do so is what matters. How far will a buffalo hit in the lungs by a .375 go? And when it comes to us instead of going, what is it still capable of? Take 50 buffalo hit by .375 and 50 by .416! Do a statistical analysis, and you'll understand exactly what I'm talking about here!

 

[revturbo9967]

Now we've reached an interesting point: killing even a .223 kills a buffalo. The time it takes to do so is what matters. How far will a buffalo hit in the lungs by a .375 go? And when it comes to us instead of going, what is it still capable of? Take 50 buffalo hit by .375 and 50 by .416! Do a statistical analysis, and you'll understand exactly what I'm talking about here!

Thanks for the laugh

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Let us respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Let us respectfully agree to disagree.
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congratulations, did everyone get caught with a .375? I bet so, it's definitely a great caliber, it's just not (in my opinion) superior to the good old .416 kkkkkk!!!