20 vs 28 gauge

[Challer]

True, 3/4 out of 12/16/20/28 will largely shoot the same. But if you look for example at the Federal Upland catalog:

3/4 - 28 only
1 - 20 only
1-1/8 - 12/16
1-1/4 - 12/20
1-3/8 - 12 only
1-5/8 - 12 only

So if you run a plantation/preserve, restricting gauge is just a matter of ensuring people are shooting smaller charges so a not to pillow the birds. It' not a snotty sort of thing.

Dress is a choice. I own no camo except boxers. I personally feel tweed/wool far surpasses any synthetic or camo in every situation. But you probably don't and that's fine. On my lease, people shoot just about everything and wear whatever they want. No one cares. But paint someone with your auto barrel and your off the lease no matter what

 

[WAB]

True, 3/4 out of 12/16/20/28 will largely shoot the same. But if you look for example at the Federal Upland catalog:

3/4 - 28 only
1 - 20 only
1-1/8 - 12/16
1-1/4 - 12/20
1-3/8 - 12 only
1-5/8 - 12 only

So if you run a plantation/preserve, restricting gauge is just a matter of ensuring people are shooting smaller charges so a not to pillow the birds. It' not a snotty sort of thing.

Dress is a choice. I own no camo except boxers. I personally feel tweed/wool far surpasses any synthetic or camo in every situation. But you probably don't and that's fine. On my lease, people shoot just about everything and wear whatever they want. No one cares. But paint someone with your auto barrel and your off the lease no matter what

Check the RST website and you will see a very different story regarding 12 ga shot charges. Reloading offers even more flexibility. I have been reloading 3/4 oz 12 ga loads for roughly 30 years.

 

[mdwest]

Dress is a choice. I own no camo except boxers. I personally feel tweed/wool far surpasses any synthetic or camo in every situation. But you probably don't and that's fine. On my lease, people shoot just about everything and wear whatever they want. No one cares. But paint someone with your auto barrel and your off the lease no matter what

Completely concur...

For the first 40+ years of my life I pretty much wore blue jeans, t-shirts, and tennis shoes when bird hunting.. the birds never seemed to care... same thing squirrel or rabbit hunting, etc..

Honestly, when hunting with my more "common man" type friends, I still do.. in fact, in Texas its still pretty hot when dove season opens, and most years it remains on the warm side for the first few months of quail season... its not unheard of for me to show up in shorts rather than blue jeans.. I hate sweating through my clothes and would rather take a chance on being cold than hot.. the first month or so of deer season Im usually decked out in a pair of jeans or some ratty old cargo pants and a t-shirt while sitting in my blind trying to figure out how to stay cool...

That said, I also maintain a bit of a wardrobe of "proper" hunting clothes for times that I am running around in different social circles.. I dont go as far as tweed/wool (again, in the Southern US, Southwestern US, etc.. you'd sweat your butt off until probably January).. but I do have a handful of Orvis "upland" shirts, that are nice and light, thin, comfortable, and easy to move around in that I'll pair with some earth toned hunting trousers, a nice set of field boots, etc...

Its simply a matter of knowing your audience..

The same applies pretty much everywhere.. and with almost anything..

For example.. I know that when I am having a business meeting with people external to my company to shave, wear a shirt with a collar, etc.. but if Im going to Wal-Mart its perfectly acceptable to do so in pajama pants, a vintage t-shirt, and flip flops...

 

[Challer]

Sure, preservations can inspect all rounds it they wanted. You should suggest that. And they can audit reloads. Clearly I knew all this before I posted. Now go run a preserve and tell us how you will be sure everyone is shooting 3/4 or 1 oz. It's just easier to reduce gauge and preclude reloads.

I find it odd that otherwise very practical successful people see this as a personal insult rather than the business matter that it is. I am certain

 

[Nevada Mike]

True, 3/4 out of 12/16/20/28 will largely shoot the same. But if you look for example at the Federal Upland catalog:

3/4 - 28 only
1 - 20 only
1-1/8 - 12/16
1-1/4 - 12/20
1-3/8 - 12 only
1-5/8 - 12 only

So if you run a plantation/preserve, restricting gauge is just a matter of ensuring people are shooting smaller charges so a not to pillow the birds. It' not a snotty sort of thing.

Dress is a choice. I own no camo except boxers. I personally feel tweed/wool far surpasses any synthetic or camo in every situation. But you probably don't and that's fine. On my lease, people shoot just about everything and wear whatever they want. No one cares. But paint someone with your auto barrel and your off the lease no matter what

You actually BUY cartridges? I load for every occasion... 20 ga 7/8 oz. dove loads, quail loads, prairie grouse loads, etc. Same for my 16's both 2-3/4" and 2-1/2" like 1 oz. of no 7s for wild chukars. For my 2-1/2" 12 I loads I loads short, low pressure loads (from 3/4 oz. to 1-1/16 oz.). I enjoy reloading and I am fully retired, unmarried, and shot what and where I want.

 

[Challer]

You actually BUY cartridges? I load for every occasion... 20 ga 7/8 oz. dove loads, quail loads, prairie grouse loads, etc. Same for my 16's both 2-3/4" and 2-1/2" like 1 oz. of no 7s for wild chukars. For my 2-1/2" 12 I loads I loads short, low pressure loads (from 3/4 oz. to 1-1/16 oz.). I enjoy reloading and I am fully retired, unmarried, and shot what and where I want.

Truth be told, I like Federal Paper but can only get them in 12/20. I reload some, mostly 375, 9x25, 22 Hornet. That said I am very well stocked in every caliber I shoot. I may never run out.

 

[Red Leg]

True, 3/4 out of 12/16/20/28 will largely shoot the same. But if you look for example at the Federal Upland catalog:

3/4 - 28 only
1 - 20 only
1-1/8 - 12/16
1-1/4 - 12/20
1-3/8 - 12 only
1-5/8 - 12 only

So if you run a plantation/preserve, restricting gauge is just a matter of ensuring people are shooting smaller charges so a not to pillow the birds. It' not a snotty sort of thing.

Dress is a choice. I own no camo except boxers. I personally feel tweed/wool far surpasses any synthetic or camo in every situation. But you probably don't and that's fine. On my lease, people shoot just about everything and wear whatever they want. No one cares. But paint someone with your auto barrel and your off the lease no matter what

Your data is simply incorrect. I shoot 1 ounce loads in my 12 bore game guns almost exclusively. The short shot string make them very effective. The load is also very common in the UK and is a very common choice for competitive shooters. I have flats of 1 ounce RST shells delivered to my front door. Federal loads a sporting load which I can also highly recommend.

 

[Challer]

Your data is simply incorrect. I shoot 1 ounce loads in my 12 bore game guns almost exclusively. The short shot string make them very effective. The load is also very common in the UK and is a very common choice for competitive shooters. I have flats of 1 ounce RST shells delivered to my front door. Federal loads a sporting load which I can also highly recommend.

You missed the point entirely and misread the post completely, which was smaller bores generally can't be loaded to the 1-1/2 game loads 12s can. And therefore smaller bores is just a way to ensure people don't use them a hunting preserve. Of you can buy 1-3/4 short shells. It's not how little can I load 12s, it that 20/28s generally can't be loaded "too much" for some preserves preference. I am sure someone will come back with their favorite 28 gauge 1-3/4.

RST are great shells. In 28 and 20 they don't exceed 1 oz. In 12s RST limits themselves to 1-1/16. But Federal 12s are up to 1-5/8. SO SMALLER GAUGES KEEPS THE 1-5/8s OFF THE PRESERVE IF THAT IS WHAT THE LAWYERS WANT.

 

[archer36]

I’m sorry but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Really? Absolutely? Just like another guy who criticized everyone's post about what they would have done in a certain situation and he was asked to give his opinion and he never responded. Why don't you be more specific. Why don't you educate us with your superior knowledge. Anyone can give a negative one sentence answer.

 

[Field28]

All the back and forth in the previous posts aside... I'm very fond of both.
I can remember my Dad taking me to the gunstore at the age of eight to buy my first shotgun. He asked the old grumpy old SOB behind the counter if he thought that a 410 or 28 would be best. The old fellow behind the counter replied, 410 will make him a pussy when it comes to recoil later on, here get him this...

We walked out with a single shot Harrington & Richardson in 20. Damned thing kicked like a mule at that young age, but recoil has never been a problem for me and I still have that shotgun... God bless that grumpy old, 1911 wearing, comb over having gun salesmans soul.

I've shot many dove, ducks, marshhens and quail with both. I have fond memories of shooting mistletoe out of the tops of trees for my Mom to make wreaths with at Christmas time with that old 20.

I grew fond of the 28 in the form of a 70's model 1100 in the dove field. If you reload or have a reliable source for shells then 28 is a blast for teal and wood ducks. Both gauges will sharpen your skills!

 

[WAB]

Really? Absolutely? Just like another guy who criticized everyone's post about what they would have done in a certain situation and he was asked to give his opinion and he never responded. Why don't you be more specific. Why don't you educate us with your superior knowledge. Anyone can give a negative one sentence answer.

The 28 ga has been around for 130+ years and you call it a fad??? You clearly don’t understand the meaning of the word.

 

[archer36]

The 28 ga has been around for 130+ years and you call it a fad??? You clearly don’t understand the meaning of the word.

Read my post carefully. It may have been around but not used extensively till about 10 years ago and I satated the reason for the resurgence. I bet the 12 and 20 had 80% of the market for over 100 years. The 16 ga became popular for a while but lost interest. Why. Because it could not do anything a 12 or 20 could do. Same applies to the 28. People may say they like it because it's "lightweight". Do you really feel a difference of 8 ounces? If you are in a stationary hunting situation, does the 8 ounces matter? If you like a 28, I respect that. But don't present it as some magical piece of equipment that exceeds it's gauge. Most of what we discuss is "opinion". They can't be right or wrong. You shouldn't demean any one because their "opinions" don't coincide with yours.

 

[mdwest]

Read my post carefully. It may have been around but not used extensively till about 10 years ago and I satated the reason for the resurgence. I bet the 12 and 20 had 80% of the market for over 100 years. The 16 ga became popular for a while but lost interest. Why. Because it could not do anything a 12 or 20 could do. Same applies to the 28. People may say they like it because it's "lightweight". Do you really feel a difference of 8 ounces? If you are in a stationary hunting situation, does the 8 ounces matter? If you like a 28, I respect that. But don't present it as some magical piece of equipment that exceeds it's gauge. Most of what we discuss is "opinion". They can't be right or wrong. You shouldn't demean any one because their "opinions" don't coincide with yours.

Your post is factually untrue. You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

28 gauge sales, both guns, and ammo, have represented roughly 2% of the market for the last 4 decades. There has been no measurable increase or decrease. Prior to the 1980’s it represented about 3% of the market for most of its initial hundred years of existence.

12 and 20 combined actually represent about 94% of the total market now, and have represented over 90% together for more than a hundred years.

You may personally know more 28 shooters now than you did 10 years ago…

But Beretta, Winchester, Federal, benelli, Remington, etc do not….

Your statement in an earlier post about industry marketing is also factually untrue… there’s been no industry push.. which has resulted in no industry increase in sales…

You do get a gun rag writer occasionally publishing something about the virtues of the 28… but that’s nothing more than content creation and someone trying to present something different to talk about rather than publishing yet another 6.5 creedmore or 7mm prc article…

 

[archer36]

Your post is factually untrue. You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

28 gauge sales, both guns, and ammo, have represented roughly 2% of the market for the last 4 decades. There has been no measurable increase or decrease. Prior to the 1980’s it represented about 3% of the market for most of its initial hundred years of existence.

12 and 20 combined actually represent about 94% of the total market now, and have represented over 90% together for more than a hundred years.

You may personally know more 28 shooters now than you did 10 years ago…

But Beretta, Winchester, Federal, benelli, Remington, etc do not….

Your statement in an earlier post about industry marketing is also factually untrue… there’s been no industry push.. which has resulted in no industry increase in sales…

You do get a gun rag writer occasionally publishing something about the virtues of the 28… but that’s nothing more than content creation and someone trying to present something different to talk about rather than publishing yet another 6.5 creedmore or 7mm prc article…

Well, it appears that you basically agree with me but say what I post is "untrue". I'm not going to post about this ad nauseam. Shoot what you want for whatever reason you want if it makes you happy. I'm not going to split hairs.

 

[mdwest]

Perhaps you should read a little more carefully…

I don’t agree with you. Your posts are bullshit.

28 gauge has not gained popularity in 40 years. It actually lost about 1/3 of its market 40 years ago and hasn’t recovered.

It’s not a fad by any definition of the word. It’s been around 140 years and has been a constant for its duration, never owning more than 3% of the total market. It currently owns about 2%.

Your guess at 12 and 20 dominance was way off. The truth is they dominate together to the point that frankly no other shotgun cartridge in existence holds more than 2% currently, to include the other not fad, venerable caliber, .410

 

[BonUm16]

Bore, n. Shotgun enthusiast's synonym for "gauge" ; everybody else's synonym for "shotgun enthusiast." - Ed Zern

 

[mdwest]

Bore, n. Shotgun enthusiast's synonym for "gauge" ; everybody else's synonym for "shotgun enthusiast." - Ed Zern

My Labrador is named "gauge"....

we thought leaning out the back door and yelling "Bore!" when we wanted him to come inside would sound ridiculous...

 

[BonUm16]

My Labrador is named "gauge"....

we thought leaning out the back door and yelling "Bore!" when we wanted him to come inside would sound ridiculous...

Love Labs. “Bore” would have been an appropriate moniker only if he was a British Lab.

 

[skydiver386]

Others may disagree with this, but my experience training young shooters professionally leads me to believe that a 28 would be the best shotgun for a beginner.

My hunting started in the mid 1970's, and most of my friends were given a single shot H&R .410, a Savage .410/22LR combo, or something similar. I was 13 when a Winchester 12ga single shot found it's way under the Christmas tree . For the next few years we practiced with the cheap Department store bird throwers and hunted local rabbits, pheasants, ducks, squirrels, and sometimes deer with slugs.

The guys with the .410 guns weren't very successful, the few with 20's were a little better, and me with my 12 did fairly well. Problem was that 12ga single bit hard at both ends. It is physically painful to shoot with slugs or 3" shells. If I seem a bit goofy at times, it's from a combination of eating lead based paint chips as an infant, and shooting that 12 ga Winchester single shot when I was 13.

After I retired from my service in the Army, I got my NRA cert., and worked at a large indoor/outdoor gun store and range facility. I trained all ages in rifle, pistol, shotgun and archery classes and private instruction 1 on 1.

When we had summer youth camp classes, the manager mandated 12, 20 and occasionally.410 shotguns. The 28 gauge and .410 ammo were deemed to expensive, and the profit margin on the class was reduced. Every year I saw kids struggle with guns far to large and heavy for their frame and muscular strength, so I decided to do something.

On my own dime, I bought several 28ga singles, and a Remington 1100 Sporting 28. The singles were primarily for youth shooters and the 1100 for adults.

The number of broken birds easily doubled in the youth classes vs the ones shooting a .410, and female students returned asking specifically to shoot that Remington 1100 Sporting 28. I'm absolutely unshakable in my belief that the 28ga is the best gun for youth, ladies and beginners.

If we started kids, and ladies out right with a 28ga of decent quality, in a single or O/U, their initial success would be much greater and sales of 28ga guns and ammo would increase. Prices might drop and availability would go up.

As full grown adult men, asking "can you really feel the difference in 8 ounces?", is a fair question, and the answer for us is "not really". When you are asking the same question of a 12 year old boy, or a light framed woman with limited upper body strength, I can GUARANTEE they feel the difference.

My point in this long rant, is that the 28 should NOT be left to the dust bin of history, In my opinion, it should be the go to for a youths first shotgun, and for training new shooters. Not a 12, not a 20, and certainly not a .410.

 

[WAB]

Others may disagree with this, but my experience training young shooters professionally leads me to believe that a 28 would be the best shotgun for a beginner.

My hunting started in the mid 1970's, and most of my friends were given a single shot H&R .410, a Savage .410/22LR combo, or something similar. I was 13 when a Winchester 12ga single shot found it's way under the Christmas tree . For the next few years we practiced with the cheap Department store bird throwers and hunted local rabbits, pheasants, ducks, squirrels, and sometimes deer with slugs.

The guys with the .410 guns weren't very successful, the few with 20's were a little better, and me with my 12 did fairly well. Problem was that 12ga single bit hard at both ends. It is physically painful to shoot with slugs or 3" shells. If I seem a bit goofy at times, it's from a combination of eating lead based paint chips as an infant, and shooting that 12 ga Winchester single shot when I was 13.

After I retired from my service in the Army, I got my NRA cert., and worked at a large indoor/outdoor gun store and range facility. I trained all ages in rifle, pistol, shotgun and archery classes and private instruction 1 on 1.

When we had summer youth camp classes, the manager mandated 12, 20 and occasionally.410 shotguns. The 28 gauge and .410 ammo were deemed to expensive, and the profit margin on the class was reduced. Every year I saw kids struggle with guns far to large and heavy for their frame and muscular strength, so I decided to do something.

On my own dime, I bought several 28ga singles, and a Remington 1100 Sporting 28. The singles were primarily for youth shooters and the 1100 for adults.

The number of broken birds easily doubled in the youth classes vs the ones shooting a .410, and female students returned asking specifically to shoot that Remington 1100 Sporting 28. I'm absolutely unshakable in my belief that the 28ga is the best gun for youth, ladies and beginners.

If we started kids, and ladies out right with a 28ga of decent quality, in a single or O/U, their initial success would be much greater and sales of 28ga guns and ammo would increase. Prices might drop and availability would go up.

As full grown adult men, asking "can you really feel the difference in 8 ounces?", is a fair question, and the answer for us is "not really". When you are asking the same question of a 12 year old boy, or a light framed woman with limited upper body strength, I can GUARANTEE they feel the difference.

My point in this long rant, is that the 28 should NOT be left to the dust bin of history, In my opinion, it should be the go to for a youths first shotgun, and for training new shooters. Not a 12, not a 20, and certainly not a .410.

Agreed. The .410 is an experts gun and quickly discourages beginners. A Quick Look at the skeet classification tables will show you how small the difference in success is between a 28 and a 12 at skeet ranges (22 yards).