The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

If I'm correct I beleive you have a Heym Double, probably in 450/400, if so, and out of sheer curiosity did you switch to a 500 J for DG ? If I'm guessing right can you please elaborateor you like to have choices now?
I had a Heym 450/400 and killed a buffalo bull with it very well (one shot down and one insurance and it was finished, but I put in two more anyway.) on a subsequent hunt where a group I was with hunted three buffalo some serious inadequacies materialised:
1. The first bull was put down with a 375 H&H side triangle shot, but got up. Then another shot, same 375, didn't go down. Then the hunter used the 450/400, it went down but tried to get up. In total it took 7 shots of 375 and 450/400 to kill that bull. There was no danger and it wasn't going anywhere, it just took an awful lot to kill it.
2. Next a facing cow took what looked like a perfectly central 375H&H hit to the chest and took off. She lay down many times and there was profuse bleeding. However she seemed to revive and was lost.
3. The third was a bull facing, but hit off centre. He took off and we luckily found a little blood spoor at last light. The followup next day resulted in a charge from 12 paces where the 375 fired once, the 450/400 fired twice and a Blaser R8 500j fired three times and all were in agreement that it was the Blaser that was the decisive rifle stopping that bull. It was almost on top of them. I wasn't present, but arrived soon afterwards.

I made the decision there and then to upgrade my DG arsenal to a Blaser R8 500j and to swap out the Heym 450/400 double for a Heym 470 double. Both were accomplished in a few months and I now feel far more confident to face buffalo decisively.
 
I had a Heym 450/400 and killed a buffalo bull with it very well (one shot down and one insurance and it was finished, but I put in two more anyway.) on a subsequent hunt where a group I was with hunted three buffalo some serious inadequacies materialised:
1. The first bull was put down with a 375 H&H side triangle shot, but got up. Then another shot, same 375, didn't go down. Then the hunter used the 450/400, it went down but tried to get up. In total it took 7 shots of 375 and 450/400 to kill that bull. There was no danger and it wasn't going anywhere, it just took an awful lot to kill it.
2. Next a facing cow took what looked like a perfectly central 375H&H hit to the chest and took off. She lay down many times and there was profuse bleeding. However she seemed to revive and was lost.
3. The third was a bull facing, but hit off centre. He took off and we luckily found a little blood spoor at last light. The followup next day resulted in a charge from 12 paces where the 375 fired once, the 450/400 fired twice and a Blaser R8 500j fired three times and all were in agreement that it was the Blaser that was the decisive rifle stopping that bull. It was almost on top of them. I wasn't present, but arrived soon afterwards.

I made the decision there and then to upgrade my DG arsenal to a Blaser R8 500j and to swap out the Heym 450/400 double for a Heym 470 double. Both were accomplished in a few months and I now feel far more confident to face buffalo decisively.
Excellent summary,
and thank you for sharing that experience. It certainly gives one food for thought, and I can understand how those encounters influenced your decision to move to the .500 Jeffery and .470 NE.
May I ask, purely out of interest and with no intention of second-guessing anyone, what bullets were being used in the .375 H&H, .450/400 and .500 Jeffery? I’m also curious about the shot placement and angles, particularly in the last encounter, where the shots were apparently made at fairly close range.

I ask because it would be interesting to understand how much of the outcome might have been attributable to bullet construction and penetration, shot angle and placement, or simply the circumstances of each encounter. These situations can offer valuable lessons, and I suspect there may be more to them.
I appreciate that you weren’t present for the final encounter, so some of those details may not be available. In any case, thank you for relating the experience.
 
Close quarter draw is a vital technique, but it does assume that you let an assailant get within arm's reach of you. That should be nearly impossible in Condition Yellow. Mide''s drawstroke is a bit different than a classic Speed Rock. I like the Guard and circling technique.

____
On another forum, the 9mm Boyz were giving this "Fudd" a bunch of crap because I prefer the 10x25mm. What produced <crickets> from them was a video by the respected "GarandThumb1" testing the 10mm. He was blown away by its terminal ballistics:



The 10mm really needs a 5" barrel (the Glock 29 was effectively reduced to a .40), so concealment can be an issue. I wear mine at 3 o'clock in a duty holster (sometimes IWB), underneath a vest or jacket.

In a suit, I'll IWB a slim single-column mag .40.


There are no "safe" neighborhoods. Perhaps safer ones, but nothing is 100% safe.

A home invasion can be very sudden because the occupants are in Condition White (that's what being at home is all about). Although I have guns throughout the house, if I weren't wearing one it'd take me time to decide which gun to choose and then getting there. I'm at risk of not grabbing it in time. I certainly always have a belt gun when I walk outside on my property.

Regarding calibers, a hot 9mm with great bullets will probably suffice. Don't lose any sleep over it.
I just prefer larger and more powerful rounds. Bad Guys are the ultimate dangerous game....

I love the 10 mm, and I agree with your assessment re. barrel length. I put a Lone Wolf 6" barrel on my Glock 20. This is my open carry outdoors pistol. Incredibly versatile with typical ammo, deadly on deer-size game, and bear stopper with 200 gr hard cast Underwood. Oh, minor detail: and 15+1 rounds on board...

For home defense, the one 'in my night stand' is a .45 Glock 21 with light/laser combo. Did we mention stopping power in this thread? ;)

For carry, I thought I would like the .45 Glock 30, and I did, and still do, but I spent a fair number of years needing to work in suits, and it was just too big and too heavy. I tried the Glock 19, same story. The Glock 42 that is now my wife's purse-gun did not exist then.

Based on the fact that the gun you carry is better than the gun you do not carry, I settled on a .32 Seecamp in a wallet holster that you can wear from the board room in 3 piece suit to the beach in shorts and bare chest, without anyone ever knowing. Besides, the Seecamp was for the longest time the gold standard of cops backup gun, and the .32 Win Silver Tip had an enviable record (one-shot stop percentage 60% to 72%) in the street-shooting statistical studies compiled by Evan Marshall and Ed Sanowin. I know that I date myself saying that, but it used to be The Bible of deep concealed carry...

There is no arguing that a 9mm, a 10mm or a .45 etc. will be infinitely more effective, but again, when you will drop the jacket in the meeting and the only thing that can print is the wallet in your back pocket, the .32 beats hands down carrying nothing at all...

1792265249714.png

When nothing can print but a wallet in the back pocket: .32 Seecamp.

That also lines up well with Altitude sickness perspective, although I am glad to admit I would rather not have to try...
You are better off, mumbling and acting like you’re overwhelmed as you slowly draw your pistol when telling him you’re getting your wallet.


A few pistols.jpg

Why the laptop with AH recent post in the backdrop? Because sometimes to follow Tanks example, "if there is no picture it does not exist" in a blogging world full of pretenders who have often never even touched guns they pretend to own ;)

Hmmm, in IPSC and its US equivalent USPSA .40 and 9mm are in different categories for the most part. I shoot limited in .40S&W with a 2011. Also, scoring is different in that a hit in the A zone is 5 points for Limited shooters and 4 points for production gun shooters (9 mm).

Recoil is actually less than 9mm due to heavier gun. Here is a video from a while back.


Good moves, good rhythm, good reload, good shooting Tanks. You rock! As my son who is a combat instructor Staff Sergeant in the US Marine Corps recently told me: "pretty good for an old man" :E Rofl:(I am only a few short years behind you).

My own iron for IPSC was a .45 Les Baer. I still own it and shoot it, but I say "was" because I moved to rural Arizona, where there is no such things as IPSC, IDPA, USPSA club, convening or competition. The closest thing is in Phoenix, and I am not driving 3 hours each way for that.

There was a time, back East in Connecticut, when I shot so much that I ended up building a .22 trainer with a Colt Ace conversion kit. It is the one under the Les Baer in the pic. Same ergonomics, same controls, same weight, same trigger, fully reliable with 40 gr Thunderbolt, and yes, countless hours of practice and untold numbers of 5,000 rounds bricks did translate very well to the .45.

I also did a little bit of IDPA, initially with my old trusted Glock 17, for a while a Glock 17 L (resold to a friend who drooled over it during the period when the gun was impossible to find in the US), and later with a Glock 34, but that too ended with the move from CT to AZ.

Interestingly, now that club comp is impractical for me, my preferred pistol shooting these last couple years, has been going out with my two boys and letting them shoot the pistols they are dreaming to inherit: P08, P38, 1911 A1, C96, GP35, MAC 50, MAB PA15, etc.

Yep, since discovering the Austrian P80 (i.e. Glock 17) as a young army officer in the 1908's, when France still had the MAC50 and Germany still had the P1 (i.e. P38), I have been a Glock fan, but I still love the classics :)
 
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“There was a time, back East in Connecticut, when I shot so much that I ended up building a .22 trainer with a Colt Ace conversion kit. “

I was using an Advantage Arms Glock conversion kit for a while. .22LR

Converts your Glock carry gun into a .22 with a dedicated slide and magazines. I have the mags for sale here in the classifieds. Traded the slide away.
 
“There was a time, back East in Connecticut, when I shot so much that I ended up building a .22 trainer with a Colt Ace conversion kit. “

I was using an Advantage Arms Glock conversion kit for a while. .22LR

Converts your Glock carry gun into a .22 with a dedicated slide and magazines. I have the mags for sale here in the classifieds. Traded the slide away.

Agreed! I actually have 3 of them: for the G19, G17 and G20, and they DO work!

Which cannot be said for the P226-look-alike SIG Mosquito (n) Mine is a POS

Admittedly, the Advantage Arms conversions will have the occasional hiccup with the Thunderbolt, or even the CCI Tactical, but this is rare enough that it does not distract from the immense training value (and family fun) of shooting unlimited numbers of virtually free ammo.

This is not an irrelevant argument when we have the 2 sons and 3 daughters at home, each with their spouse, all 10 taking turns at the plates, each with their favorite pistol - from my safe of course - (one of them still prefers an original Ruger Mk II) and gobbling ammo - paid by me of course - by the thousands, brick after brick :cool:

By the way, I found out that 1/2" thick aluminum plates are perfect for .22 LR. They fall cleanly off the rack when hit squarely.

What was critical for me building that .22 LR Colt Ace conversion to train for the IPSC .45 Les Baer, was the form factor. The same applied when I used the Advantage Arms conversion on the Glock 17 frame to train for IDPA.

But we should really create another thread if we want to discuss all that, as I doubt that this thread will attract many pistol shooters, or anyone at all by now...
 
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I’m shocked more beginners and instructors don’t use the conversion kits
Train with the same pistol but much cheaper
 
I’m wondering what caliber Buzz is shooting- probably a 500. Shikari. The client seems to be a little surprised
 
I would need to change my underwear after that, well, when the adrenaline had dropped to an acceptable level
Gumpy
:D u bet. I guess the client was too stunned to react. The second shot drops the ele, first hits but does not stop the charge.
The efficacy of a double is at show.
 
I’ve only shot two buff so far, one with a 50 cal muzzleloader and one with a 375 H&H.

I’m hoping to put together a hunt next year and in that case I’m aiming to take my 9.3x62 using woodleigh hydro’s.
 
This carry inside the home intrigues me, I live in a safe neighbourhood, I do have a loaded gun within reach somewhere hidden. So, I'd like to know why would you advise to all time carry-in the house?
and
what benefits does a 40, 10 have for self protection over a 9mm? BTW all I have are 9mm's.
For me the idea of carry at home
The gun is all ways in one place and others don’t have access to it like guns hidden around the home.

I don’t like the 40 it to me never gave enough extra ammo over a 45 to go with it ( at least what I had the ability to use in the early 90s)
I did like the 10 with full power loads not the 10 light fbi loads that gave birth to the 40.
I don’t like the 9mm that much but was ok with it using the federal 9bple 115 gr Leo ammo and the 124 gr hydro shok +p+ Leo ammo

Today I just normally carry a 44 snubby 5 shot
 
my general disagreement with USPCA type drills is their obsessive focus on Speed above most else, which inculcate bad habits, for example:
— dumping the mag before grabbing a new one— no Tap/Tug with mag insertion (really important when slide is in battery)— using the slide lock as a slide release, instead of racking the slide— unrealistic drills that reward speed instead of optimal gun handling/street tactics/troubleshooting
Properly changing mags with above Steps #1-3 will certainly add a half-second, but it's time well worth spending in a gunfight since you'll know that 1) you've a spare mag, 2) it's fully inserted, and 3) your slide forward is more assured with a coarser movement which is also cross platformed (vs. different sizes and placements of slide locks of Glocks, 1911s, etc.).
Well, I think it would add more than half a second for sure. When visualizing the course of fire one tries to do mag change on the move to reduce dead time but not always possible. So, we practice it a lot, the video below is one I had from a while back. Since then I have optimized it to cut down a couple of tenths of second.

 
There is a huge difference in a tactical reload and reloading while still engaged.

If you are still flinging lead trying to get to cover, concealment or a long gun. Then I would run the mag dry, drop it while grabbing another mag.

If you are behind cover then you have time to do a tactical reload, (keeping the partially full mag) and inserting a full mag.

Most forms of competition morph into different versions of the original purpose.

Playing Polo horseback in Persia and the orient was originally a way for their Calvary to practice combat.

No one would argue that polo and real combat horseback are still 100% alike.
 
Here are some pics taken from video of a reload while moving. This is my first training session with an Army trainer. ( I personally believe the best trainers are Green Berets) and I’m a Navy guy :cool: John was a Ranger, Green Beret then was Delta during the GWOT
IMG_4692.jpeg

You can see the mag drop


IMG_4693.jpeg
Here you can see he corrects my pistol position as being too far away from my face.


IMG_4694.jpeg
The circle and dot is wear he moved my reload to. It’s much faster closer to the body.
 

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