Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

Newboomer · Sunday at 11:02 AM

Muntjacer23 said:
Having now caught up on the whole thread. It does now sound like the PH’s ethics go above and beyond the legal requirement for lion hunting. And whilst that on its own isn’t a problem and is arguably admirable that they are so committed to conservation, it sounds like it wasn’t communicated to the client prior to booking, which makes it a problem.

And has now left the client to feel like any legal lion sighted might not be deemed suitable by the ph.

I will also add I have never hunted lions so I don’t have the same experience as many on this thread, but these are just my thoughts from what I’ve read

Something to be said about attending shows and talking face to face with a prospective outfitter/PH. You can get a feeling about him and his operation. If he is legit he will usually have a list of clients and be willing to share that info. Check references. I did considerable research on outfitters before I committed and lucked out. I hunted with him all three of my safaris with complete satisfaction.

Hank2211 · Sunday at 11:08 AM

Muntjacer23 said:
Having now caught up on the whole thread. It does now sound like the PH’s ethics go above and beyond the legal requirement for lion hunting. And whilst that on its own isn’t a problem and is arguably admirable that they are so committed to conservation, it sounds like it wasn’t communicated to the client prior to booking, which makes it a problem.

And has now left the client to feel like any legal lion sighted might not be deemed suitable by the ph.

I will also add I have never hunted lions so I don’t have the same experience as many on this thread, but these are just my thoughts from what I’ve read

The other thing to take into account is the cost of a lion hunt (of the non-captive bred variety).

While my ethics aren't impacted by money (or at least I hope not), the fact that this is a six-figure expenditure has to figure into the conclusion, as does the fact that lion hunts have to be explicitly booked as such (hence the high day rates and trophy fees), so this isn't one animal out of many in a plains game hunt.

As a result, the lack of advance communication was in my view inexcusable.

hwr239 · Sunday at 11:12 AM

LimbNoMo said:
Nothing is preventing him from weighing in here.

Other than he's in the field hunting, not delving into internet drama.

375Fox · Sunday at 11:26 AM

hwr239 said:
Other than he's in the field hunting, not delving into internet drama.

He’s made the post on Instagram and has the time to delete dissenting opinions.

Scott CWO · Sunday at 11:27 AM

I know the lion hunter and am familiar with the PH and safari company involved. I have also successfully hunted lion and am booked to go again in 2028 and am going as an observer on a lion safari in 2027. That said, I would never hunt with Morgan after hearing about this hunt. He clearly has too little of an understanding about the pricing and expense of these types of hunts from a client perspective. As an outfitter myself, I have been on both sides many times. His overreaching about pride males is unrealistic. Perhaps he should spend $100k+ and see if his PH telling him some BS about urine stains would fly?! What’s next - the lion was part of a pride last year so we turn him down this year because he might get his pride back? Ridiculous and I would be ten kinds of pissed if this happened to me.

The only mistake I know of made by the hunter in this case is leaving early. That takes away the bargaining power in your argument with the outfitter later on to fix this catastrophe. I understand why the hunter left early but I would not have done that in an effort to preserve my argument with the outfitter for another trip.

LivingTheDream · Sunday at 1:43 PM

hwr239 said:
Other than he's in the field hunting, not delving into internet drama.

Has plenty of time to post photos on the gram and do podcasts.

Want to see how quick he responses if I ask about booking a hunt?

Mtn_Infantry · Sunday at 2:13 PM

Scott CWO said:
The only mistake I know of made by the hunter in this case is leaving early. That takes away the bargaining power in your argument with the outfitter later on to fix this catastrophe. I understand why the hunter left early but I would not have done that in an effort to preserve my argument with the outfitter for another trip.

This is a great piece of advice and one I wouldn't have thought about.
I would have thought it to be the opposite - you don't eat your entire meal then complain it wasn't what you ordered or cooked incorrectly.

You might think about making a thread with advice from an outfitter's perspective on what a client should do if their hunt is going wrong (in their opinion). I think #1 would be address issues with the outfitter and allow time for correction.

Scott CWO · Sunday at 2:33 PM

Mtn_Infantry said:
This is a great piece of advice and one I wouldn't have thought about.
I would have thought it to be the opposite - you don't eat your entire meal then complain it wasn't what you ordered or cooked incorrectly.

You might think about making a thread with advice from an outfitter's perspective on what a client should do if their hunt is going wrong (in their opinion). I think #1 would be address issues with the outfitter and allow time for correction.

The outfitter in this case can now say that another lion could have come to bait in the last seven days or that one might have been seen while checking baits and hunting other species. My advice is to never leave a hunt early if you want a discounted hunt from the outfitter due to a problem with the guide. I can’t tell you how many animals we have taken in the last third of a hunt and even the last day but it is a ton. We just got a big moose last night on the second to last evening with a bowhunter who hadn’t even seen a mature bull yet. Zero to a hero is how tough hunts go. Contrary to some people’s theories about baited lion hunts, they are not guaranteed anywhere and require perseverance from everyone involved. Then in this case, you have a holier than thou PH with unrealistic pride male standards and it was a catastrophe.

Russ16 · Sunday at 2:39 PM

Like nearly everyone here I wasn’t in the camp. But I have talked to the camera crew that was. What makes me question the whole situation is the fact that very experienced camera guys who have seen more lions shot than many PHs were shocked that it was passed on. As were many PHs who were shown video and pictures. That tells me the PH is an outlier in opinion on the matter.

I also heard that he was very tone deaf to the clients frustration which wouldn’t help the situation at all. I believe he said something along the lines of “what a privilege to pass on such an animal” which seems to not be reading the room.

I agree with others here that the standard for taking any game should be clear before the hunt starts. If an elephant has to be above a certain size or below a certain size or if other game need to meet size or age criteria that should be well discussed. I would say even the the point of sharing pictures if go/no go animals so that everyone can be aligned before they get in a blind or set off on the track.

Betterinthebush · Sunday at 2:45 PM

Russ16 said:
“what a privilege to pass on such an animal”

That’s an unimaginably impossible statement to make under the circumstances.

“What a privilege it is to get cancer and survive.”

“What a privilege it is to see the summit of Everest only to turn back.”

“What a privilege it is to get married to the love of your life and divorce later.”

PerH · Sunday at 2:50 PM

Betterinthebush said:
A NGO in a hunting camp studying lions just before a lion hunt is like 6 teenagers breaking out an ouija board under a full moon on all hallows eve. Sounds like the script for a predictably bad horror flick.

I’m disheartened for you all over this whole affair.

I read in Natasha Illum Bergs book « Rivers of Red Soil».
She writes about ego and worse ngo that can get all the fancy equipment they wish too at free . Abd they also just drive into hers and others ph’s areas abd just shoot down a lot of wild game for fancy dinners . No compensation for the hunters , and they can’t do anything with it , diplomatic immunity poachers .

Betterinthebush · Sunday at 2:53 PM

PerH said:
I read in Natasha Illum Bergs book « Rivers of Red Soil».
She writes about ego and worse ngo that can get all the fancy equipment they wish too at free . Abd they also just drive into hers and others ph’s areas abd just shoot down a lot of wild game for fancy dinners . No compensation for the hunters , and they can’t do anything with it , diplomatic immunity poachers .

Not a surprise.

Tex .416 · Sunday at 3:02 PM

Scott CWO said:
…The only mistake I know of made by the hunter in this case is leaving early….

This is what is hard to understand.

The odds of success are better in the field still trying than sitting at home being upset. Never know what might happen.

Last year I shot a specific buck I was after the next to last day of the season. Back when I went on package hunts, more than once I connected on the last day of the scheduled hunt days. The times I did my end of the work being ready to go every morning at 4:30, but did not connect, the ranch onwer had me come back and hunt with him personally. Those make up hunts turned into lifelong wonderful memories and later working for him.

Quitters never win and winners never quit.

Mtn_Infantry · Sunday at 3:34 PM

Tex .416 said:
This is what is hard to understand.

The odds of success are better in the field still trying than sitting at home being upset. Never know what might happen.

Last year I shot a specific buck I was after the next to last day of the season. Back when I went on package hunts, more than once I connected on the last day of the scheduled hunt days. The times I did my end of the work being ready to go every morning at 4:30, but did not connect, the ranch onwer had me come back and hunt with him personally. Those make up hunts turned into lifelong wonderful memories and later working for him.

Quitters never win and winners never quit.

To add clarity from what I was told the lion was Day 14 of an 21 day Safari. My take away, was this was many issues leading up to it and this the straw that broke the camel’s back in terms of confidence in the PH and their ability.

Examples I heard from the hunter were passing on game that was “too small” only for @kpoynter or his son to shoot it and be record book caliber (the hunter was very happy for the other hunter and his son). Issues locating one’s own bait or blind. Consistently passing on mature animals despite the hunter likely/wanting them. Being told they couldn’t shoot multiples of some species despite them having multiple on the license.

My take-away from the conversation (happened real time) was he lost confidence in the PH to deliver the quality of hunt he booked and felt he deserved under his contract.

Betterinthebush · Sunday at 3:40 PM

Mtn_Infantry said:
To add clarity from what I was told the lion was Day 14 of an 21 day Safari. My take away, was this was many issues leading up to it and this the straw that broke the camel’s back in terms of confidence in the PH and their ability.

Examples I heard from the hunter were passing on game that was “too small” only for @kpoynter or his son to shoot it and be record book caliber (the hunter was very happy for the other hunter and his son). Issues locating one’s own bait or blind. Consistently passing on mature animals despite the hunter likely/wanting them. Being told they couldn’t shoot multiples of some species despite them having multiple on the license.

My take-away from the conversation (happened real time) was he lost confidence in the PH to deliver the quality of hunt he booked and felt he deserved under his contract.

Unreal.

This is a case study.

Incompetence at best. Professional malfeasance at worst.

TheGrayRider · Sunday at 3:40 PM

Is this the PH from the Robin Hurt Safaris website that was involved in this long saga? Just curious.

Good luck this season and happy hunting to all, TheGrayRider a/k/a Tom.

Tex .416 · Sunday at 3:52 PM

Mtn_Infantry said:
To add clarity from what I was told the lion was Day 14 of an 21 day Safari. My take away, was this was many issues leading up to it and this the straw that broke the camel’s back in terms of confidence in the PH and their ability.

Examples I heard from the hunter were passing on game that was “too small” only for @kpoynter or his son to shoot it and be record book caliber (the hunter was very happy for the other hunter and his son). Issues locating one’s own bait or blind. Consistently passing on mature animals despite the hunter likely/wanting them. Being told they couldn’t shoot multiples of some species despite them having multiple on the license.

My take-away from the conversation (happened real time) was he lost confidence in the PH to deliver the quality of hunt he booked and felt he deserved under his contract.

Thank you for adding those details, which definitely add important context.

Betterinthebush · Sunday at 3:59 PM

TheGrayRider said:
View attachment 797248

Is this the PH from the Robin Hurt Safaris website that was involved in this long saga? Just curious.

Good luck this season and happy hunting to all, TheGrayRider a/k/a Tom.

I hope he at least has the decency to reply to the current “hat” thread. On that subject I feel he’s more than qualified.

Hunt anything · Sunday at 4:27 PM

On a rainy day here in south Alabama I had nothing better to do so I went back and watched the “Meateater” episode with Potter as the PH. I had vaguely remembered something strange about the roan hunt.
Admittedly I have only hunted roan for about a week so my experience is extremely limited. The bull that ended up being shot was an extremely good bull but when judging the bull it went from “ it’s a female no it’s a young bull oh it’s a good bull” in my opinion it just seemed a little strange.

revturbo9967 · Sunday at 4:34 PM

After this lion situation, it’s easy to say this is Morgan’s style. He pushes the limits of the hunter’s expectations and keeps raising the bar, which can make for great TV. When MeatEater was filming there, they passed on several shooter sable because they were looking for “the one.” But what happens if they never find the one Steven ended up shooting? At some point, pushing the expectations higher can turn a great opportunity into going home empty handed, and costing the hunter an insane amount of money in the process.

Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

Newboomer

Hank2211

hwr239

375Fox

Scott CWO

LivingTheDream

Mtn_Infantry

Scott CWO

Russ16

Betterinthebush

PerH

Betterinthebush

Tex .416

Mtn_Infantry

Betterinthebush

TheGrayRider

Tex .416

Betterinthebush

Hunt anything

revturbo9967

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