nope, for my dream Pelican
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The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise
- Thread starter SStomcat
- Start date
skydiver386
AH legend
As others have eluded to, but not stated outright is the shooters skill level with a rifle.
Let's look at 2 actual examples.
There are a number of prospective Hunters that go to Africa every year, but have never fired a rifle of any kind at anything. They've dreamed of the adventure, but aren't hunters.
One PH in ZA told me a client showed up with a rifle new in the box, that is, still in the factory box unfired. The scope and mounts were still in the factory packaging. When the client was asked if he had fired the rifle, he replied that he had never fired ANY rifle. He assumed the PH would be happy to see a new rifle and scope, rather than something old and worn.
The PH proceeded to assemble the rifle and teach a few shooting fundamentals. The hunting went about as you would expect.
Contrast this with a hunter that has shot dozens of Deer, and other big game in his home Country. He shoots year round in rifle competition of some sort, and has attended various shooting schools and long range rifle courses.
He shows up to hunt with a 505 Gibbs bolt rifle and ammo he has handloaded.
Which of these two hunters would you prefer show up in your Safari camp? Which of these do you think can put the first round on the money with a Dangerous Game Rifle?
My money would be on the second hunter.
I'd trust the experienced hunter and trained rifle shooter with the 505 Gibbs over the hunter with little or no experience with a 375 H&H. To assume that most people can't possibly shoot accurately with a large caliber rifle is just that, an assumption. Training and experience are far more important than selecting a lighter recoiling caliber.
Let's look at 2 actual examples.
There are a number of prospective Hunters that go to Africa every year, but have never fired a rifle of any kind at anything. They've dreamed of the adventure, but aren't hunters.
One PH in ZA told me a client showed up with a rifle new in the box, that is, still in the factory box unfired. The scope and mounts were still in the factory packaging. When the client was asked if he had fired the rifle, he replied that he had never fired ANY rifle. He assumed the PH would be happy to see a new rifle and scope, rather than something old and worn.
The PH proceeded to assemble the rifle and teach a few shooting fundamentals. The hunting went about as you would expect.
Contrast this with a hunter that has shot dozens of Deer, and other big game in his home Country. He shoots year round in rifle competition of some sort, and has attended various shooting schools and long range rifle courses.
He shows up to hunt with a 505 Gibbs bolt rifle and ammo he has handloaded.
Which of these two hunters would you prefer show up in your Safari camp? Which of these do you think can put the first round on the money with a Dangerous Game Rifle?
My money would be on the second hunter.
I'd trust the experienced hunter and trained rifle shooter with the 505 Gibbs over the hunter with little or no experience with a 375 H&H. To assume that most people can't possibly shoot accurately with a large caliber rifle is just that, an assumption. Training and experience are far more important than selecting a lighter recoiling caliber.
I know more about defense type shooting than buff and elephant hunting.
I have heard people say in defense use I use a 22 lr and plan to just shoot them in the head the 22 will work as good as any thing in the head,
( your 9.3 cns)
My question to them is how do you know you will get a brain shot?
When shit gets bloody there are no guarantees of what you will get and that very much is including A brain shot
nope, for my dream Pelican
You need to dream a little bigger
Fair point.
No it doesnt, the question is - do you trade in your big bore safety net for a laser like placement of a smaller 375 calibre?
I'm trying but it still haunts.
Ontario Hunter
AH ambassador
No surprise. Limbsaver slipon = putting a birthday balloon between the gun's butt and your shoulder. Get yourself a Pachmayer Decelerator. A real recoil pad. You'll notice a BIG difference.
You are funny.
Gomer
AH enthusiast
Obviously the first, any doubts?
If yours is original, you can do what I did and get a McMillan stock.
skydiver386
AH legend
One Day...
AH legend
Last attempt...
If you can shoot the big bores well, there is no trade to make, shoot accurately with a higher safety margin (although never a certainty).
If you cannot shoot the big bores well, shoot what you can shoot well. Here too, there is no trade to make, "a man's got to know his limitations".
That is the entire point, shoot well, because it is the most critical factor, and frankly it is not all that complicated.
By the way, I did read every post, yours as well as other's. You seem to be captive of your paradigm...
Enjoy "your" thread
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Well a 375 h&h is not exactly like Bell 7x57
The 375 would fall into appropriate especially if you have ph back up.
But if you can shoot a 404 or 400 why not? If you have one
I knew a bear guide that said he would rather you show up with your 243 deer rifle than you knew vs a brand new 338 win mag.
But he loved seeing a well used 338 showing up that you knew how to use
But he loved seeing a well used 338 showing up that you knew how to use
pc3
AH enthusiast
If Buff are on the menu I think the caliber needs to be .4XX
My planning and trim down of the collection to "go terminal" with wont include a .375, I think its neither fish nor fowl (at least my thinking currently) I'd opt, and have, for a 9.3, .338 or .358 bore of some description and it needs more than that, it needs more than a .375 H&H.
I also think if your a handloader the .4XX cal's offer as much if not more versatility than the .375 and hit harder while still having manageable recoil.
I'd go as far to say that a .416 Rigby and a .500 NE pairing would be fine for Africa, especially if you load your .416 with a 300 gr tsx or 340gr Woodleigh protected point, its virtually 30/06 trajectory.
Iven shot quite a few small targets with the .416 such as foxes...my thoughts do change for the Eastern Cape. the shots were aways out there.
My planning and trim down of the collection to "go terminal" with wont include a .375, I think its neither fish nor fowl (at least my thinking currently) I'd opt, and have, for a 9.3, .338 or .358 bore of some description and it needs more than that, it needs more than a .375 H&H.
I also think if your a handloader the .4XX cal's offer as much if not more versatility than the .375 and hit harder while still having manageable recoil.
I'd go as far to say that a .416 Rigby and a .500 NE pairing would be fine for Africa, especially if you load your .416 with a 300 gr tsx or 340gr Woodleigh protected point, its virtually 30/06 trajectory.
Iven shot quite a few small targets with the .416 such as foxes...my thoughts do change for the Eastern Cape. the shots were aways out there.
Well, that certainly was the last attempt. I’m relieved we finally have closure.Last attempt...
If you can shoot the big bores well, there is no trade to make, shoot accurately with a higher safety margin (although never a certainty).
If you cannot shoot the big bores well, shoot what you can shoot well. Here too, there is no trade to make, "a man's got to know his limitations".
That is the entire point, shoot well, because it is the most critical factor, and frankly it is not all that complicated.
By the way, I did read every post, yours as well as other's. You seem to be captive of your paradigm...
Enjoy "your" thread
I don’t think anyone here is disputing that shooting well matters. That’s hardly a revolutionary proposition
As for being “captive of my paradigm,” I’ll happily remain captive. It seems considerably more comfortable than being held hostage by someone else’s.
And yes, it is my thread. I’ll try to enjoy it responsibly.
Rapier or broadsword - both are absolutely lethal in the right hands and for some reason that seems to irritate the broadsword fraternity a lot more than those who prefer a rapier. A couple of observations from my experience for whatever it is worth. A forty something is not an iota more lethal in the wrong spot than a .375, and a .375 in the right place is just as lethal as any forty something. To stop an inbound buffalo or elephant it needs to be brained, or in the case of the buff, perhaps have its neck broken. That is true whether carrying a .375 or forty something. One of the most experienced PHs I know in Mozambique carries a .375 and hordes 300 gr Hydros with which to load it. With the exception of perhaps one or two people in this discussion he has a killed more elephant and buffalo than most of us will ever see.
I have mentioned several times with regard to this ever remerging subject of discussion, I own a .470, 500/416. 450, and a .404. I shoot them all extremely well. Yet, when I go to Africa, it is the .375 that accompanies me. It is simply the most versatile choice in the gunroom, and is just as lethal as any of its rack mates.
Were I in the business of guiding clients and stopping animals made problems by the clients miserable first shots, I likely would use a .500. But as the client, or were I transported back to a time where I was hunting without a PH, I would carry a .375.
I have mentioned several times with regard to this ever remerging subject of discussion, I own a .470, 500/416. 450, and a .404. I shoot them all extremely well. Yet, when I go to Africa, it is the .375 that accompanies me. It is simply the most versatile choice in the gunroom, and is just as lethal as any of its rack mates.
Were I in the business of guiding clients and stopping animals made problems by the clients miserable first shots, I likely would use a .500. But as the client, or were I transported back to a time where I was hunting without a PH, I would carry a .375.
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My first "big bore" was a 375 RUM but mine weighs a bit over 10 lbs with the scope. I also use the muzzle break when sighting in and practicing so I was able to learn to shoot it accurately and avoid flinching. It was the rifle I took on my first aAfrican safari nearly 25 years ago. I believe this early indoctrination to "significant recoil" helped me later master shooting my doubles very accurately.
I am also fanatical about practicing with my rifles from field shooting positions with both my large bolt actions (338 win and 375 RUM) and my doubles (450/400, 470 and 500 NE)
One Day...
AH legend
Well stated, Red Leg, and as usual we are in complete agreement, all the way to the last paragraph, where, as you know, we have a slightly different approach and only partially agree.
The part we agree on is "Were I in the business of ... stopping animals made problems ... I likely would use a .500" Amen, and valid since you can shoot it well! Make it a Lott for me, same difference.
The part we have a different perspective on, as you know, is that even as a client, and because I shoot the Lott well enough, I want the ability to be able to handle wounded DG with the highest probability (not certainty!) of success. There are enough cases out there, all the way to 'today', of the PH getting hammered or running out of ammo, and the client saving the day. Rare? Yes. Unheard of? No. I want this last ditch ability, however remote the chance of using it, and I want the best tool I know how to use for it.
Where we agree again, is that a perfect .375 shot in the CNS will do it just as well as a 45+, but life is imperfect, and there is a reason why the vast majority of PH, not all, but the vast majority, choose a big hammer that can break bigger/more bones and make bigger holes. As apparently you would yourself
Yet another, likely unwanted, twist on this indeed "ever re-emerging subject of discussion"
By the way, I took a single 9.3x62 barrel for my R8 on my last trip to the dark continent and it was pure joy. How well I understand preferring that to a canon !!! But I was not hunting elephant this time...
The part we agree on is "Were I in the business of ... stopping animals made problems ... I likely would use a .500" Amen, and valid since you can shoot it well! Make it a Lott for me, same difference.
The part we have a different perspective on, as you know, is that even as a client, and because I shoot the Lott well enough, I want the ability to be able to handle wounded DG with the highest probability (not certainty!) of success. There are enough cases out there, all the way to 'today', of the PH getting hammered or running out of ammo, and the client saving the day. Rare? Yes. Unheard of? No. I want this last ditch ability, however remote the chance of using it, and I want the best tool I know how to use for it.
Where we agree again, is that a perfect .375 shot in the CNS will do it just as well as a 45+, but life is imperfect, and there is a reason why the vast majority of PH, not all, but the vast majority, choose a big hammer that can break bigger/more bones and make bigger holes. As apparently you would yourself
Yet another, likely unwanted, twist on this indeed "ever re-emerging subject of discussion"
By the way, I took a single 9.3x62 barrel for my R8 on my last trip to the dark continent and it was pure joy. How well I understand preferring that to a canon !!! But I was not hunting elephant this time...
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Doug Hamilton
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So what if it falls on you to stop the charge? If you start the crisis, you should be able to end it. That happened on my first safari. A "dead" buffalo got up and started for the PH at about ten feet. Due to a mechanical failure of his rifle, it just went "click." I broke that bulls neck with my .458 Win. On my last safari I used the same rifle to blow out the top of another bulls heart. He went about 20 yards and folded up never to move again.
I can't say that I really like the recoil of a .458, but I shoot my other rifles enough that a flinch has not been a problem. One is f those other rifles is a .300 Win the I have set up with an identical Timney trigger and fire controls. I just don't see the benefit of pushing the ultra small boundary into marginal performance.
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K_P wrote on Buckleyguy12's profile.
Good morning from Montana.
I'm looking at a post from 2018 where you were looking for a lefty Winchester in .375 H&H Magnum. I'm selling mine. My email is [redacted] in the event that you're still searching for a unicorn.
Best,
Kelly Palmer
I'm looking at a post from 2018 where you were looking for a lefty Winchester in .375 H&H Magnum. I'm selling mine. My email is [redacted] in the event that you're still searching for a unicorn.
Best,
Kelly Palmer
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