The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

BryceM said:

The whole theory of a stopping rifle is one that can turn a buffalo, elephant, hippo, or rhino, even if the shot isn't perfect. Most likely, a .30-06 with FMJs will perfectly kill any of these from a frontal or side brain shot. Miss by a little, and the .30-06 will likely have little effect.

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But the .45+ is likely to have considerable effect, or at least a lot more than the .30-06.

Note that I too write "likely" because, indeed, when it comes to hunting DG, especially wounded DG, nothing is certain.

MHYOUNG 375 said:

Folks,

I've put more than a few hunters on their first DG safari. When they ask about what to bring for rifles I tell them to bring a scoped 375 of some ilk. A 375 will do it all. I think starting off with a 375 is great and if then you want to move up the ladder fine but don't do it just because Johnny that's been on one buffalo hunt used a cannon.

I had a safari newbie and his Dad book a safari. The son asked me about what he shoud bring admitting he had little expereince with recoil. He and his Dad had never shot anything other than 308s. I told him to get a 375 and have a muzzle break installed. he said that would be "too gay". He ended up taking a straight out of the box CZ in 416 Rigby. He wounded and lost 3 buffalo. The Dad never got to shoot as he wanted the son to kill a buffalo first and they just ran out of time. Of course with that result there were a litany of complaints ranging from the camp location not being scenic to the lack of buffalo.

Mark

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1000% agreed! Going back to previous post Bottom line #2: on DG, shoot as big a gun as you can shoot reliably.

Or in other words, as discussed in above post, answer the real question: where is my personal recoil control threshold? And feel free to add, how often do I practice with it?

Which leads to probably a Bottom Line #6 I should have included in my previous post:

Bottom Line #6: do not confuse PH and client. They do not have the same job, they do not have the same level of practice, and they do not need the same rifle. One must kill with the first shot, the other must carry the rifle that give him/her the highest probability -- implied: within his/her own shooting abilities -- to stop the wounded DG in case things turn nasty after the first one screwed up. Notice: highest probability, not certainty...

Flbt said:

Yes but that’s only one part of it.
You have to know the anatomy you have to have the nerve to be that cool under pressure and you have to have the natural ability.
One with out the ability to do the rest is usless.

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True, but once you get into the groove, and you see the results, you invariably get used to it. Lets say, you have a big bore, do you think that you could be uncool and still be able to shoot well?
Being cool applies to all situations and it matters, but then it comes with practice and experience.

BryceM said:

The whole theory of a stopping rifle is one that can turn a buffalo, elephant, hippo, or rhino, even if the shot isn't perfect. Most likely, a .30-06 with FMJs will perfectly kill any of these from a frontal or side brain shot. Miss by a little, and the .30-06 will likely have little effect.

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There are also documented instances of missing the heart/lung/spine shots by inches by big bores that have led to a long chase and or a charge. So shot placement trumps over caliber?

This is fun. Everyone grab something to eat

MHYOUNG 375 said:

Folks,

I've put more than a few hunters on their first DG safari. When they ask about what to bring for rifles I tell them to bring a scoped 375 of some ilk. A 375 will do it all. I think starting off with a 375 is great and if then you want to move up the ladder fine but don't do it just because Johnny that's been on one buffalo hunt used a cannon.

I had a safari newbie and his Dad book a safari. The son asked me about what he shoud bring admitting he had little expereince with recoil. He and his Dad had never shot anything other than 308s. I told him to get a 375 and have a muzzle break installed. he said that would be "too gay". He ended up taking a straight out of the box CZ in 416 Rigby. He wounded and lost 3 buffalo. The Dad never got to shoot as he wanted the son to kill a buffalo first and they just ran out of time. Of course with that result there were a litany of complaints ranging from the camp location not being scenic to the lack of buffalo.

Mark

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With that attitude and lack of practice I have no reason to believe the results would have been any different with a 375.

Not every wounded buffalo shot with a caliber above 375 is the fault of higher recoil. Lack of practice is mostly to blame in my opinion. Recoil could be a reason for lack of practice and that is where you need to be honest with yourself about what you can handle. Most people, especially new hunters, just don't practice enough and they don't practice properly.

Everyone here has heard it said many times that there has been more buffalo killed with a 375 than all other calibers combined. If we are expected to accept that as fact then we also have to accept as fact that the 375 has wounded more buffalo than all other calibers combined.

Why would anyone wound an animal with a 375 if the recoil is not the problem. If recoil is the issue then are those who can't handle a 375 going to be relegated to a plains game only restricted license.

Lack of preparation, nerves, adrenaline all play their part in poorly placed shots regardless of the caliber used.

SStomcat said:

There are also documented instances of missing the heart/lung/spine shots by inches by big bores that have led to a long chase and or a charge. So shot placement trumps over caliber?

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Surviving a charge is the realm and "raison d'être" of the stopping caliber. There is no other consideration. Bringing the animal to bag is another matter, and doing that relies on appropriate marksmanship. Hopefully, after you've knocked it to it's knees, that should be a little easier.

I'm a firm believer that for hunters, shot placement is paramount. Most hunters overestimate their recoil tolerance, but even more significantly their abilities with a rifle in a stressful field situation. You're missing the point though. If you want to hunt dangerous game with a PH who is using a trusty .308 as a backup weapon, go right ahead. I'm sure he's pretty accurate with it........

One Day... said:

The right question...

I do not want to come across as rude, and I am really not, but you are not asking the right question, and your two options are not mutually exclusive, unless the entire thread is click bait, in which case I have zero interest...

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You are not rude, but stating it is a 100 year old discussion without understanding my thought process and question is wrong. I do beleive my two options are mutually excluse.
I do not click bait, I've nothing to gain from it. I'm after knowledge and I know there is always something to learn from many erudite and astute hunters in this forum.Please refrain from posting in my thread if you so wish and start a new thread with your supposedly correct question.

One Day... said:

The right question...
The real question is not what do you choose between -- I am going to make it short -- killing or stopping? recoil or accuracy? The real question on DG is: "what is the biggest gun you can shoot reliably?"

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For you probably, not for me.

Because to those who shoot the .458 well, (they have generally learned proper shooting form; proper recoil control; proper practice; and proper DG rifle weight), the .458, even Lott, is not punishing and can absolutely place shots "laser-like"...

No one is questioning this aspect.My question is simple - here it is again -Are you trading the heavy "safety net" of a punishing .458 for the laser-like placement of a manageable .375?



Unnesaary flex, but I guess it is OK

.458 Lott 500 gr 100 yard group (from a Blaser R8) standing from the sticks (bench groups serve no purpose past sighting, there are darn few benches in the jesse).

Unwanted thought, irrerelavant to my post.

"Laser-like" enough for me around 1 MOA, at least the same killing power, and certainly a whole lot more stopping power than a .375.
Achieved through proper rifle weight, learning recoil control, and years of practice.

So be it. Not everyone is one day


PS: do not assume that every hunter or PH of fame was/is comfortable with the big calibers, or could/can afford one. I know a number of today's PHs would cannot afford to shoot anything bigger than a CZ .375, and I know a few honest enough to say that they can't shoot the .458 or even the .416. Guess what, all of the above "choose" the .375

You clearly did not read my previous posts.

PS 2: most folks who can shoot well the .40+ and .45+ started by learning to shoot the .375 well. This is generally not something to be ignored
No, many start with .22 LR, I started with a British Paradox gun and a 30-06

One Day... said:

But the .45+ is likely to have considerable effect, or at least a lot more than the .30-06.

Note that I too write "likely" because, indeed, when it comes to hunting DG, especially wounded DG, nothing is certain.

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Do you think a shot to the rumen of a charging bull from your 458 Lott or whatever caliber will stop the charge in its tracks?
I know that a well placed CNS shot from my 9.3 definitely will.

Shoot the biggest gun you can handle is my philosophy as to how much you can handle that’s will vary per person.

One Day... said:

Which leads to probably a Bottom Line #6 I should have included in my previous post:

Bottom Line #6: do not confuse PH and client. They do not have the same job, they do not have the same level of practice, and they do not need the same rifle. One must kill with the first shot, the other must carry the rifle that give him/her the highest probability -- implied: within his/her own shooting abilities -- to stop the wounded DG in case things turn nasty after the first one screwed up. Notice: highest probability, not certainty...

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No one is confused except perhaps yourself.

You’re raising a pertinent point, but it’s completely irrelevant to the topic of my OP.

I’d suggest reading the OP again. If you have something relevant and valuable to add, by all means, please do. Otherwise, there’s really no need to throw the hammer down on a point that nobody is actually making.

thriller said:

Shoot the biggest gun you can handle is my philosophy as to how much you can handle that’s will vary per person.

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Agreed.

Mark458 said:

This is fun. Everyone grab something to eat

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Eat or drink? On my second peg of Bourbon.

SStomcat said:

Are you trading the heavy "safety net" of a punishing .458 for the laser-like placement of a manageable .375?

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I submit that, for DG, my .500 NE Shikari has laser-like placement and very manageable. It is not "punishing" at all.

Your mileage may vary. Heck, at camp a few weeks ago both of the guys were carrying .375s with muzzle break. PHs were complaining about it. Funny part was one of the guys had put a very high red dot and a 3X multiplier he had taken from his AR on his gun. The PH replaced it with one of his spare scopes right away.

SStomcat said:

Agreed.

Eat or drink? On my second peg of Bourbon.

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Just setting in for the evening session.

So far, the largest caliber rifle I own is my Custom Brno 458 Lott with a fiberglass McMillian stock. I feel comfortable shooting it with 500 grain bullets at 2300 FPS and am very accurate with it. I do try and limit my shooting sessions to 10 rounds. This may sound silly but I honestly cannot tell the difference between my 458 Lott and shooting my CZ 416 Rigby and my Heym 416 Rigby.

Like others I’ve graduated to larger calibers over time. My first experience shooting the big bores was 30 years ago, shooting Winchester M70’s in 458 Win Mag and 416 Rem Mag and back then it was brutal! That was before I learned to protect myself with a PAST recoil pad and only shoot off the bench to sight in.

Back then I also considered the 338 Win Mag and 375 H&H pretty heavy recoiling rifles. Honestly the hardest recoiling rifle that was just flat out painful to shoot and I also have a permanent scar between my eyes from a scope cut, was my Custom Shop Remington 375 RUM, weighing only 7 lbs and maybe 7 3/4 lbs with scope. Even with a PAST recoil pad it was brutal like getting punched in the shoulder by Tyson. Shooting a 10-11 lbs 458 Lott, 458 Win Mag, various 416’s was a walk in the park compared to that lightweight 375 RUM!

So rifle weight and fit play a huge role. With all that said, I wouldn’t hesitate to hunt DG with a 375 H&H or 375 Ruger anytime, anyplace. But like others here, I just like the larger calibers, no I love them! 416 Rigby and 458 Lott are my favorites. I can definitely handle recoil better at 61 than 31 but I have lots more experience now.

Shot placement is everything but hunting elephant, a larger caliber like 458 Lott, 450 Rigby, 500 Nitro, and 500 Jeffery can give you an advantage. A near miss on an elephants brain with these big bores mentioned will knock it down giving you time for another shot, not so with a near miss with a 375, the elephant will be off and running.

Shoot the biggest you can shoot accurately. For my wife, that's a downloaded 375 or a 9.3x62. For me, I draw the line at 404 Jeff.

SStomcat said:

That is news, I know inuits have hunted big animals with .22 or shot them and let them bleed out. I'm therefore unaware that people in the US are averse to recoil of a 30-06.

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Oh boy, go the the green and black forum. Or google “223 on bear, mountain goat, deer, and moose”. You will find a thread of 600 pages basically saying no one can actually shoot a 30-06 well.

Gomer said:

Oh boy, go the the green and black forum. Or google “223 on bear, mountain goat, deer, and moose”. You will find a thread of 600 pages basically saying no one can actually shoot a 30-06 well.

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That's the very reason I don't own a 30-06 I heard nobody could shoot it well. That's why I use a 338 win mag, I shoot it great. Hahaha

Gomer said:

Oh boy, go the the green and black forum. Or google “223 on bear, mountain goat, deer, and moose”. You will find a thread of 600 pages basically saying no one can actually shoot a 30-06 well.

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All I know is it is a controversial topic and illegal in many states.

Mark458 said:

That's the very reason I don't own a 30-06 I heard nobody could shoot it well. That's why I use a 338 win mag, I shoot it great. Hahaha

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In all fairness I have a feeling that my pre-64 30-06 kicks more than my 9.3 and 338 win mag. It however has a steel butt plate but I dont think thats the reason. It hits the same even with a Limbshaver on it.

SStomcat said:

True, but once you get into the groove, and you see the results, you invariably get used to it. Lets say, you have a big bore, do you think that you could be uncool and still be able to shoot well?
Being cool applies to all situations and it matters, but then it comes with practice and experience.

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Idk never had a really big bore but I shot hot 45-70 out a handyrifle and a 375 ruger as well as I did a 22 and a 3 1-2 12 as good as a 20
Now the 460 wb was to much of a good thing.


How would you get in the grove and get the experience today on shooting hundreds of elephants and buff? Like they did in Bells time?
I am not saying everyone needs a 700
But keep it reasonable
Most don’t think a 45-70 is enough so why would a 7x57 be?
Bear been killed with a 22lr it doesn’t make it a appropriate bear hunting cartridge