Moving from lead to copper?

Fargo Boyle · Saturday at 9:33 AM

Forgive my ignorance, however I’m interested to know how the dg calibres have faired with transition from lead to copper.

Has that been driven locally (Africa) or is this a domestic (USA / specific states etc) driver that has effectively reduced use / availability of lead bullets?

What I’m intrested to understand is if copper will replace lead entirely for dg cartridges?
What, if any, are the trade offs? Has there been a calibre that has reduced in popularity/ efficiency when having to change from lead to use copper?

I ask as in the uk we are following a (now paused) EU REACH requirement to limit almost all lead ammunition. This has resulted in one of our most popular calibres .243 win, nearly becoming illegal (in Scotland) for use on our larger deer species until a change to the minimum bullet weight in legislation was implemented , effectively enabling this cartridge to be deer leagal with light bullets- to accommodate a change to less dense copper.

Is there any examples of something similar to this experience with (marginal) dg cartridges in Africa countries - which effectively makes them non compliant due to the move to copper?

Thanks

Doug3006 · Saturday at 4:10 PM

I know that there is no ban on lead bullets in South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe or Zambia. I believe the same holds true among the rest of the major safari countries. That said, I’ve used all copper bullets on Cape buffalo to great effect.

coyote wacker · Saturday at 4:29 PM

If your wanting to shoot a equal weight copper or brass bullet to a copper-lead bullet. You would need to have a barrel with a faster twist to stabilize it.
Myself I prefer brass bullets using Cutting Edge Brand. I use in a 243 Win. there 55gr. ESP Raptor it harvests 200 lbs. deer like a hammer a shoulder shot they drop right at the shot.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/products/243-6mm-55gr-esp-raptor?variant=46774657483050

Fargo Boyle · Saturday at 6:02 PM

Doug3006 said:
I know that there is no ban on lead bullets in South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe or Zambia. I believe the same holds true among the rest of the major safari countries. That said, I’ve used all copper bullets on Cape buffalo to great effect.

Thanks this is useful information.

Fargo Boyle · Saturday at 6:07 PM

Yes this was / is the issue with trying to maintain 100 grns in a .243
Win. Most rifles have a slower twist that isn’t able to stabilise long 100grns copped bullets. As there are a lot of .243 win in use in the uk, the powers that be decided to reduce the 100 grns to 80 grns, thus eliminating the needs for a tight twist rate / new barrel/ calibre.

I wondered if given the min speciations for hunting dg in some African countries- did moving to copper effect those marginal calibres?

Doug3006 · Saturday at 6:45 PM

“I wondered if given the min speciations for hunting dg in some African countries- did moving to copper effect those marginal calibres?”

None of the countries I’m familiar with have changed their minimums due to the advent of copper bullets. Also, the larger caliber all copper bullets shoot exactly the same as copper/ lead bullets. Except I find the to be more accurate. No need for different twist rates.

Hunter4752001 · Saturday at 6:48 PM

In regard to the EU REACH requirement, the latest FACE bulletin indicates that bullets and slugs have been removed from the lead ban. Now shot is the issue in play.:

"The REACH restriction on lead shot has now entered its final scrutiny phase. After years of engagement, the final text is fundamentally different from the original proposal: bullets and slugs have been removed entirely from its scope, while the transition period for lead shot has been extended to seven years. FACE considers this outcome workable. Our priority must now be to use the transition period effectively and ensure that hunters across Europe have access to suitable ammunition, clear information and practical support."

In regard to the use of copper on African DG then it comes down to personal choice. For my buffalo I used 450g all copper 458 projectiles. All shots through and through penetration (including lengthways). I couldn't be happier. I believe monometal projectiles just perform better and are my hunting choice for all calibres and game.

Copper being less dense than lead, means that you will need to check if your rifling twist rate will stabilise your preferred projectile. Check by either consulting the manufacturer or using a stability calculator. Then check by firing actual groups to confirm. Just as an aside, many European rifle manufacturers seem to be using very dated twist rates in their products. These neither cope with modern heavy for calibre jacketed bullets or all copper bullets. I don't know why they're still doing this.

Because copper projectiles are longer than equivalent weight lead, you'll also need to consider case capacity. Have you got enough room for the powder charge without over compression?

Do you need the same weight projectile. In my experience a slightly lighter copper projectile out penetrates standard weight jacketed lead. Others may have different experience.

Fargo Boyle · Sunday at 4:14 AM

Hunter4752001 said:
Do you need the same weight projectile. In my experience a slightly lighter copper projectile out penetrates standard weight jacketed lead.

I understand this was also a finding of the research the one of our government bodies, when using copper, did reducing the legal min bullet weight from 100 grns to 80 grns.

BeeMaa · Sunday at 4:43 AM

Hunter4752001 said:
Do you need the same weight projectile. In my experience a slightly lighter copper projectile out penetrates standard weight jacketed lead. Others may have different experience.

I was using 180 grain copper jacketed lead bullets in my 300WSM hunting rifle. I changed rifles to a 300WM and in doing so I needed change bullets. The jacketed lead didn't shoot as well in the WM, but the 165 grain Barnes TTSX was lights out. That's what I've been using ever since and game keeps falling. I've also found that (in general) the exit wound is larger and I've never recovered a bullet. Most likely caused by the combination of increased speed of both the larger case capacity of the WM and the lighter bullet being able to move faster.

@One Day... had a thread about this a while back. He switched from jacketed lead to Barnes TSX for his WBY cartridges with amazing results.

Fargo Boyle · Sunday at 5:02 AM

Hunter4752001 said:
The REACH restriction on lead shot has now entered its final scrutiny phase. After years of engagement, the final text is fundamentally different from the original proposal: bullets and slugs have been removed entirely from its scope, while the transition period for lead shot has been extended to seven years.

This is the position at the EU level currently.

However, the UKG is still moving forward with the prior EU REACH proposals which includes a band on lead calibres >6mm, plus all lead shot by end of 2029. This is unlikely to shift again to marry with the latest reach proposals.

BeeMaa · Sunday at 5:41 AM

The US banned lead shot for waterfowl hunting in 1991. California banned lead for all hunting bullets in 2019. Other states have not followed in California's footsteps, but some have introduced legislation to do so. Example - Iowa, non-lead ammunition is required to hunt all game animals except for deer and turkey on selected public hunting areas in both north central and north west Iowa. And there are many other states lining up with their own version that makes sense to them.

I have moved away from lead over the past 7 years for many hunting pursuits and legislation is one of the reasons. I'm glad I have an accurate option for my rifles (Barnes TSX/TTSX) but for shotguns the price spike of TSS is a cause for concern. I will most likely be moving to copper & bismuth for scattergun hunts.

It is the responsibility of the hunter to know the regulations where you are hunting. Please keep this in mind because paying the price in some of these states can be costly. Here is a website with some information on the subject.
Congressional Sportsmen Foundation

Same'Ol · Sunday at 10:49 AM

i've been slowly switching over each rifle to solid copper bullets, specifically Barnes TTSX bullets. the results are impressive so far. my previous brand was the Nosler AB's, which is a damn good bullet and have nothing negative to say about it. the only thing is one does get a bit more fouling, but thats easily taken care of with some Butch's Bore Shine.

ftrovato · Sunday at 11:18 AM

It's hard to argue with the results that solid copper delivers.

However, as an older guy (that started using copper in the late 80s' when barnes released them) I still have a soft spot in my heart for Nosler Partitions (non dangerous game smaller than eland) and Swift A-Frames on animals with heavy muscle structure and dangerous game.

Also I find it easier to work up hand-loads for Barnes & Swift with less copper fouling in a barrel.

I dont know that today's copper can replace bonded bullets. I've seen several examples of them not expanding property in large caliber rifles when not driven fast enough.

Moving from lead to copper?

Fargo Boyle

Doug3006

coyote wacker

Fargo Boyle

Fargo Boyle

Doug3006

Hunter4752001

Fargo Boyle

BeeMaa

Fargo Boyle

BeeMaa

Same'Ol

ftrovato

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