Short Action Elk Rifle

Mnwhiskeyman said:

Would anyone use a 308/7mm-08 for an Elk hunt within 400 yards. I am asking cause I would like to double this as my sons new rifle and with the cost of things why not get one that can do elk pronghorn whitetail and more?
Thanks

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Absolutely. 308 is plenty, so is the 7mm08 within 400, I've only killed a couple with the 308 but the ballistics are close enough there is no concern as long as your shooting a bullet that doesn't frag easy.
People say you cant kill an elk with a 6.5 creedmoor (dont tell the 14 elk that I killed with mine).
Hit them good and keep it inside 400.
Spend the money going hunting instead of on the "perfect" rifle.

You can't go wrong with the .308! A huge selection of light handy rifles, and factory load selection is fantastic. You can use a .308 for all the game in the USA and many of the animals in Africa.

The world’s first short-action magnum - Remington’s .350 Mag - easily makes the list of S/A rifles suitable for Elk. But the question is, what are the anticipated distances?

Inside 225yds or so, the more compact .350RM variants (M600, M660, Model 7) are fine.

Where longer shots will be the norm (300+yds), the 22” barreled variants, like the Ruger 77 or the Remington 700, are probably better for energy retention at distance.

Jack Stevens said:

The world’s first short-action magnum - Remington’s .350 Mag - easily makes the list of S/A rifles suitable for Elk. But the question is, what are the anticipated distances?

Inside 225yds or so, the more compact .350RM variants (M600, M660, Model 7) are fine.

Where longer shots will be the norm (300+yds), the 22” barreled variants, like the Ruger 77 or the Remington 700, are probably better for energy retention at distance.

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A real thumper of a cartridge! It deserves to be more mainstream then it is.

Mountaineer said:

My last antelope with a 338 Federal was 589 yards. Don’t count it out.

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W.T.H.? Are you serious?

Zeroed at 300yds, a 180gr AccuBond or 185gr TTSX would require a holdover of 7 feet for 589yds.

Even between 550-575yds and 575-600yds the holdover is 12"!

What had you zeroed for, and how much did you holdover?

Jack Stevens said:

The world’s first short-action magnum - Remington’s .350 Mag - easily makes the list of S/A rifles suitable for Elk. But the question is, what are the anticipated distances?

Inside 225yds or so, the more compact .350RM variants (M600, M660, Model 7) are fine.

Where longer shots will be the norm (300+yds), the 22” barreled variants, like the Ruger 77 or the Remington 700, are probably better for energy retention at distance.

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The .350 Rem Mag hasn't the case capacity to send higher BC 225+gr at range-bucking velocities.
Its bullet drops >300yds are pretty steep.

I think the .325WSM is today a better choice. Flatter shooting, yet with very good shock power.
Flies almost like a .300 Win Mag yet hits almost like a .338 Win Mag. The 8mm/.323 is a very fine balance between SA, weight, and BC. It's worthy of deeper exploration.

I have a 300wsm with a proof barrel, Savage 110 action & Grayboe stock that I'll sell you if you want a short action 30 cal.

My two short action elk sized animal rifles are 338 RCM and 416 WSM.

HuntOften36 said:

I have a 300wsm with a proof barrel, Savage 110 action & Grayboe stock that I'll sell you if you want a short action 30 cal.

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That combo sounds like it'd make a handy elk rig without going down the custom-build rabbit hole. 300 WSM still has plenty of factory ammo around too.

The only difference in terminal ballistics at a given velocity between like projectiles from 308 and a 300WM is the distance from which they’re fired. So, none. Internal and external ballistics are what’s different.

There are plenty of elk in freezers that didn’t know they’d been shot from a 22-250, 6mm, etc. You have plenty of killing capability from plenty of short action available cartridges if you put them in the right spot, with the right bullet at the right velocity.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

The .350 Rem Mag hasn't the case capacity to send higher BC 225+gr at range-bucking velocities.
Its bullet drops >300yds are pretty steep.

I think the .325WSM is today a better choice. Flatter shooting, yet with very good shock power.
Flies almost like a .300 Win Mag yet hits almost like a .338 Win Mag. The 8mm/.323 is a very fine balance between SA, weight, and BC. It's worthy of deeper exploration.

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I agree. The 325 is a great choice, we have three here at home. A custom model 7 rem, a short action model 70 and a Blr. Very flat shooting to 400 yards or so.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

The .350 Rem Mag hasn't the case capacity to send higher BC 225+gr at range-bucking velocities.
Its bullet drops >300yds are pretty steep.

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Not as much as you'd think relative to an elk's vital zone.

Plus, the specific bullet drop at 300yds depends entirely on barrel length + velocity, as I pointed out, as well as anticipated hunting ranges. Those ranges can vary with elk in particular.

Originally, the .350RM was designed to achieve .35 Whelen ballistics (specifically with 200grn & 250grn bullets - RN or Spitzer) out of an 18.5" barrel (M600) and, later, a 20" barrel (M660). The 250grn slug is easily effective on elk-size game out to 200yds or so, but the cartridge was intended to shine inside 150yds, and much closer in timbered areas. Starting early on (mid-1960s) the M600 in .350RM is on record as having put down grizzlies in AK and a cape buffalo in Africa.

That said, out of a .350RM M700 with a 24" barrel, a b.c.-efficient 225grn spitzer BT bullet will be terminally effective out to 300yds or more. You can load to a realistic 2750fps and, zeroed @ 200yds, the drop of that bullet at 300yds is about 7 inches or a bit more. ... Is that considered steep?

Well, what constitutes a "steep drop" is relative to the critter's vital zone - which on elk is about 14". With a confirmed 200-yd zero, a dead-on hold on the elk's shoulder at 300 yards still puts that 225grn bullet cleanly in the lower half of the vitals.

Yeah, the shooter is a large part of achieving that placement, but that's why stalking closer, if possible, in never a bad strategy.

I've got a Nosler Model 48 in 325WSM available if someone is looking. Dies, new brass and 300 or so bullets too.

Jack Stevens said:

Not as much as you'd think relative to an elk's vital zone.

Plus, the specific bullet drop at 300yds depends entirely on barrel length + velocity, as I pointed out, as well as anticipated hunting ranges. Those ranges can vary with elk in particular.

Originally, the .350RM was designed to achieve .35 Whelen ballistics (specifically with 200grn & 250grn bullets - RN or Spitzer) out of an 18.5" barrel (M600) and, later, a 20" barrel (M660). The 250grn slug is easily effective on elk-size game out to 200yds or so, but the cartridge was intended to shine inside 150yds, and much closer in timbered areas. Starting early on (mid-1960s) the M600 in .350RM is on record as having put down grizzlies in AK and a cape buffalo in Africa.

That said, out of a .350RM M700 with a 24" barrel, a b.c.-efficient 225grn spitzer BT bullet will be terminally effective out to 300yds or more. You can load to a realistic 2750fps and, zeroed @ 200yds, the drop of that bullet at 300yds is about 7 inches or a bit more. ... Is that considered steep?

Well, what constitutes a "steep drop" is relative to the critter's vital zone - which on elk is about 14". With a confirmed 200-yd zero, a dead-on hold on the elk's shoulder at 300 yards still puts that 225grn bullet cleanly in the lower half of the vitals.

Yeah, the shooter is a large part of achieving that placement, but that's why stalking closer, if possible, in never a bad strategy.

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@Jack Stevens
Loading nice bullets like the accubonds and 250 grainers or even the Barnes into the 350 REM mag greatly reduces the case capacity due to the short 2.8" coal.
If it was made on a standard action ( I know this defeats the purpose) and throated so the longer bullets can be seated out to utilise the case capacity it would be a different beast.
Bob

Jack Stevens said:

Not as much as you'd think relative to an elk's vital zone.

Plus, the specific bullet drop at 300yds depends entirely on barrel length + velocity, as I pointed out, as well as anticipated hunting ranges. Those ranges can vary with elk in particular.

Originally, the .350RM was designed to achieve .35 Whelen ballistics (specifically with 200grn & 250grn bullets - RN or Spitzer) out of an 18.5" barrel (M600) and, later, a 20" barrel (M660). The 250grn slug is easily effective on elk-size game out to 200yds or so, but the cartridge was intended to shine inside 150yds, and much closer in timbered areas. Starting early on (mid-1960s) the M600 in .350RM is on record as having put down grizzlies in AK and a cape buffalo in Africa.

That said, out of a .350RM M700 with a 24" barrel, a b.c.-efficient 225grn spitzer BT bullet will be terminally effective out to 300yds or more. You can load to a realistic 2750fps and, zeroed @ 200yds, the drop of that bullet at 300yds is about 7 inches or a bit more. ... Is that considered steep?

Well, what constitutes a "steep drop" is relative to the critter's vital zone - which on elk is about 14". With a confirmed 200-yd zero, a dead-on hold on the elk's shoulder at 300 yards still puts that 225grn bullet cleanly in the lower half of the vitals.

Yeah, the shooter is a large part of achieving that placement, but that's why stalking closer, if possible, in never a bad strategy.

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@Jack Stevens
The 250gn Speer out of the Whelen still carries 2,000fpe out to 400yards with a 24" drop when sighted 3"high at 100 and started at 2,700fpsl.
Definitely an easy 400yard cartridge for elk.
Bob

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

@Jack Stevens
Loading nice bullets like the accubonds and 250 grainers or even the Barnes into the 350 REM mag greatly reduces the case capacity due to the short 2.8" coal.

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The long 250grn Noslers can be an issue, but not so with the Speers or Hornadys, nor the Hawks. Haven't tried the Barnes 250grns.

If you didn't know, Remmy's initial factory .350RM ammo starting in the mid-1960s was the 200grn (@ 2710fps) and 250grn (@ 2450fps) loads, as chrono-ed from the M600 18.5" tube. Those loads went on to establish the cartridge's reputation on everything from mid-west deer to elk, caribou, moose, and the bears - black, brown, & grizzly.

The 250grn ammo was also used to take a cape buffalo in Africa, at least before the .375H&H became the legal minimum in most countries for DG.

Where loading the .350RM gets dicey, at least with the short-action platforms (to include the M600s, M660s, Model 7s, and an M7-derivatives like the M673), is with bullets above 250grns.

But where that line gets drawn on bullet size & weight isn't clear. I'm still experimenting with Hawk's 275grn and 300grn RTs, Woodleigh's brand being vaporware in my part of the U.S.

I've developed one somewhat accurate 300grn load with Varget. I was trying to duplicate the 300grn load that no less a reloading authority than Ken Waters developed using the Barnes Original 300grn bullet, getting 2200fps or so from his 22" Ruger M77. He recommended that load for big heavy DG critters.

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

If it was made on a standard action ( I know this defeats the purpose) and throated so the longer bullets can be seated out to utilise the case capacity it would be a different beast.

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That's been done - long-loading - on the Rem 700, Ruger 77, and one custom .350RM Win M70 build I saw. The Remmy had a 24" barrel, while the Ruger and the Winny had 22" barrels. Those rifles all weigh about 9.5lbs or so with scope, mount, rings, and sling (i.e., field ready).

My scoped M600 is barely an 8b rifle all day, including the sling and stock pack. My scoped M660, with an 1.5" longer barrel and set up the same way, is just touching 8.4lbs.

Jack Stevens said:

Originally, the .350RM was designed to achieve .35 Whelen ballistics (specifically with 200grn & 250grn bullets - RN or Spitzer) out of an 18.5" barrel (M600) and, later, a 20" barrel (M660).

That said, out of a .350RM M700 with a 24" barrel, a b.c.-efficient 225grn spitzer BT bullet will be terminally effective out to 300yds or more. You can load to a realistic 2750fps and, zeroed @ 200yds, the drop of that bullet at 300yds is about 7 inches or a bit more. ... Is that considered steep?

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BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

The .350 Rem Mag hasn't the case capacity to send higher BC 225+gr at range-bucking velocities.
Its bullet drops >300yds are pretty steep.

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Notice my statement didn't include 225gr to 300yds, but beyond 300yds.
And what I meant by "higher BC 225+gr" was 250gr, though I could have been more clear about that.

A .358/225gr has an SD of only .251 (about like a .30/165gr) with correspondingly lower BC than a .358/250gr with .279 SD. I recommend at least .271 SDs in Africa (e.g., .30/180gr), hence my preference for .358/250gr (and thus a bit more MV than the .350RM).

I'm not disputing the practical efficacy of a 225gr out to 250yds from 20" barrels, but doesn't a 24" barrel rather defeat the handiness purpose of the Rem 600/660 carbines? With that rifle OAL, one could just go with a standard action .358 Norma Mag.

Jack Stevens said:

Originally, the .350RM was designed to achieve .35 Whelen ballistics (specifically with 200grn & 250grn bullets - RN or Spitzer) out of an 18.5" barrel (M600) and, later, a 20" barrel (M660). The 250grn slug is easily effective on elk-size game out to 200yds or so, but the cartridge was intended to shine inside 150yds, and much closer in timbered areas.

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I agreed with you in 2008 in my Safari Dreams, calling the .350RM "a belted short-action .35 Whelen":

The .350 Rem. Mag. remains the only true medium bore (i.e., .33-.375) short magnum cartridge, and offers a useful 260yd MPBR. With <250gr bullets has maybe 50fps on the .35 Whelen, but its rifles are handier. Case capacity is scant for the 250gr, so don't imagine it some .358 Norma. Instead, consider it a belted short-action .35 Whelen.

The original Rem 600 carbines were barreled far too short at 18" to effectively wring out this dandy round, which probably helped to quench sales. Jeff Cooper enjoyed the .350 Rem Mag for his "Lion Scout" (which I've shot out to 300yds at Raton).

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I think the .350RM is a good and useful carbine cartridge if not too much is expected from it.
I believe the preferable 250gr requires a standard action case for appropriate MVs, that's all.
The .35 Whelen case is OK, but the Ackley Improved version is a real benefit.

I can live with my .35 Whelen A.I., but am still pining for yet a bit more, i.e., the .35 Newton.
Some are necking down the .375 Ruger for a standard action beltless .358 Norma Mag.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Notice my statement didn't include 225gr to 300yds, but beyond 300yds.
And what I meant by "higher BC 225+gr" was 250gr, though I could have been more clear about that.

A .358/225gr has an SD of only .251 (about like a .30/165gr) with correspondingly lower BC than a .358/250gr with .279 SD. I recommend at least .271 SDs in Africa (e.g., .30/180gr), hence my preference for .358/250gr (and thus a bit more MV than the .350RM).

I'm not disputing the practical efficacy of a 225gr out to 250yds from 20" barrels, but doesn't a 24" barrel rather defeat the handiness purpose of the Rem 600/660 carbines? With that rifle OAL, one could just go with a standard action .358 Norma Mag.


I agreed with you in 2008 in my Safari Dreams, calling the .350RM "a belted short-action .35 Whelen":


I think the .350RM is a good and useful carbine cartridge if not too much is expected from it.
I believe the preferable 250gr requires a standard action case for appropriate MVs, that's all.
The .35 Whelen case is OK, but the Ackley Improved version is a real benefit.

I can live with my .35 Whelen A.I., but am still pining for yet a bit more, i.e., the .35 Newton.
Some are necking down the .375 Ruger for a standard action beltless .358 Norma Mag.

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@BTP-KennethWRoyce
I respectfully disagree with you in the sd for pg.
225gn 35 cal projectiles resulted in one shot kills on my game. SD alone don't kill game.
Having a big capacity 35 in my book don't make it kill any better. Unless using monos even the bonded bullets like Nosler and Woodleigh have velocity parameters they work best in. Pushing the 200-200 fps faster can actually make them less effective due to over expansion.
To me personally I can't see the value in using 20+ grains more powder to get a couple of hundred fps more and a bucketful more recoil.
A 310gn RNSP or solid with a high penetration factor @2,400+ fps has more than enough punch for anything I need to hunt
But to each his own in the power stakes.
Bob

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

@BTP-KennethWRoyce
I respectfully disagree with you in the sd for pg.
225gn 35 cal projectiles resulted in one shot kills on my game. SD alone don't kill game.
Pushing the 200-200 fps faster can actually make them less effective due to over expansion.

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Hi Bob, I take your point, and am not denying .358/225gr effectiveness on game (or, .308/165gr, with similar SD).

I just like >.271 SDs, such as .30/180gr on deer (when 150-165gr are more commonly used).
I'm a fan of exit wounds, and higher SDs help. For Africa, I've gone to 200gr in my .308 and .30-06.

Your "310gn RNSP or solid with a high penetration factor @2,400+ fps" would in general be fine with me for the distances I commonly hunt (though I'd want a bit more V for 300yds if necessary).

I almost never shoot game past 300, but I insist on my scoped rifles' capability out to 300.
My preferred larger case is not for 200+fps more impact velocity, but for the flatter 300yd of 250gr.
I'll probably never actually get to a concoction of .35 Newton, and am fine with my .35 Whelen A.I.

So, the .358 Win and .350RM are not quite enough for me. I've already a blooded .45-70 Marlin Scout for carbine/bush work, so everything else must be 300yd/.271 SD without a snowball's trajectory.

The original Rem 600 carbines were barreled far too short at 18" to effectively wring out this dandy round, which probably helped to quench sales. Jeff Cooper enjoyed the .350 Rem Mag for his "Lion Scout" (which I've shot out to 300yds at Raton).

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Then I assume you remember that Cooper’s .360 “Lion Scout” sported a 19” barrel?