POLL: What's the best .458 solid bullet for Elephant?

My vote for number one is Woodleigh Hydro if I had to pick just one. They have worked exceptionally well for us. Have used the CEB solid on several hunts as well and they are basically the equal to the hydro. Would not hesitate to use them in the future and they are generally available.

skydiver386 said:

View attachment 792740
I'm curious how this design from Lehigh would perform. Unfortunately the heaviest .458dia bullet they make in this design is 305gr, and there is no way I'd hunt in Africa with a bullet more appropriate for a 45-70. Now if they made a 450 or 500gr? I'd be first in line to give it a go.

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I saw a test with these bullets on hogs. They left the same wound channel as round nose FMJ bullets. problem is they do not continue to spin inside the animal... so they are just solids with a very small frontal area.

These bullets (like most of Lehigh's bullets) are designed to perform very well in gel blocks. They don't perform the same in the real world of bone, muscle, fat, and assorted pockets of different consistency.

matt85 said:

I saw a test with these bullets on hogs. They left the same wound channel as round nose FMJ bullets. problem is they do not continue to spin inside the animal... so they are just solids with a very small frontal area.

These bullets (like most of Lehigh's bullets) are designed to perform very well in gel blocks. They don't perform the same in the real world of bone, muscle, fat, and assorted pockets of different consistency.

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So my suspicion was correct.

Good for use in a 45-70 on Hogs in Texas.

Not good for use in a 458Lott on Pachyderms in Botswana.

skydiver386 said:

So my suspicion was correct.

Good for use in a 45-70 on Hogs in Texas.

Not good for use in a 458Lott on Pachyderms in Botswana.

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Waste of money on hogs, they are just extremely expensive FMJ bullets.

Hydros in my .470ne was impressive on a big tuskless.

I followed instructions and gave it both barrels in the shoulder, she never took a step and was fading fast but I reloaded and put in a quartering head shot and dropped her.

This was recovered in the far side ribs by axe strike while butchering, if you look close you can see where the axe cut off part of the tip which I believe accounts for the 7grain weight loss.

Pretty good for breaking an elephant shoulder, breaking a rib, fully penetrating the heart and break another rib on the offside before coming to a stop.

Gday
my position is I don’t look @ when things go right it’s the average to poor that I like to investigate/concern me

A few fun facts that some people take note of others just look @ a dead critter so all is good

On solids
Straight line & adequate penetration from multiple angles/resistances is the name of the game

If one gets nose distortion, bending , penetration ability & consistency of straight line penetration ability is compromised , once compromised it’s just a bingo raffle for the outcome as sometimes it will still go straight , sometimes turns, sometimes tumbles , sometimes a mix of those

Every single solid on the market today is not immune to nose distortion so the ability of the design to resist this comes down to design for which the ceb#13 fn solid is the best we have but still this design has a flaw like every other design does & that is that the arse of the bullet wants to overtake the nose

The bigger bores resist the bending but they won’t stop the arse wanting to get the front now it can be lessened by adhering to a calibre to length ratio eg the 510 gr ceb is superior to the 570 gr ( .510 cal ) imo as it’s less likely to get its arse to want to come to the front & this is with the best solid on the market we have available today & man to get those ceb to go off line is a rare occurrence

Now move to an easier one to see in the hydro in various calibres ( I like the hydro but it’s not in the league of the ceb ) & most of the time it will go straight but let’s look @ the post of @deewayne2003 above that shows why we need to be careful on assessment of when things went well as that projectile distorted so with respect it most likely tumbled as the distorted meplat & slight bending in front portion plus the arse wanting to get to the front all leads to a tumbling & that’s shown here on that pill of other traits like alloy flow directions here that also show tumbles but still maybe straight line
Now here’s the 470ne hydro recovered in a elephant that was a frontal head shot that never got close to the brain as it done a massive turn ending up in the bottom jaw meat
Yet it’s no where near as bad looking as deeways so that leaves us with a slight meplat distortion but more of the bullets arse wanting to get to the front that most likely caused the boomerang of a turn

The smaller calibers like 375 this occurs on a greater % as they are longer on the whole with less integral strength & one that the nose profile becomes more important on

The greatest source of data on solids over various brands is @michael458 imo but one also needs to listen to @matt85 as he’s on the money of terminal are key imo

A cleaning rod give a great indicator of straightline abilities



Cheers

They will be my back shot for Buffalo next year. I will not hesitate to use them on ELE because of what you have said - same design, with the first being a NF flat point solid.

Mark458 said:

I'm having some North Fork CPS loaded in 500J and 458 Lott. These are both heavy for caliber. I'm anxious to see how they perform. They appear to have the same slight expansion as the Woodleigh Hydro does. They have been available on North Forks sight in many caliber

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Fordy said:

Gday
my position is I don’t look @ when things go right it’s the average to poor that I like to investigate/concern me

A few fun facts that some people take note of others just look @ a dead critter so all is good

On solids
Straight line & adequate penetration from multiple angles/resistances is the name of the game

If one gets nose distortion, bending , penetration ability & consistency of straight line penetration ability is compromised , once compromised it’s just a bingo raffle for the outcome as sometimes it will still go straight , sometimes turns, sometimes tumbles , sometimes a mix of those

Every single solid on the market today is not immune to nose distortion so the ability of the design to resist this comes down to design for which the ceb#13 fn solid is the best we have but still this design has a flaw like every other design does & that is that the arse of the bullet wants to overtake the nose

The bigger bores resist the bending but they won’t stop the arse wanting to get the front now it can be lessened by adhering to a calibre to length ratio eg the 510 gr ceb is superior to the 570 gr ( .510 cal ) imo as it’s less likely to get its arse to want to come to the front & this is with the best solid on the market we have available today & man to get those ceb to go off line is a rare occurrence

Now move to an easier one to see in the hydro in various calibres ( I like the hydro but it’s not in the league of the ceb ) & most of the time it will go straight but let’s look @ the post of @deewayne2003 above that shows why we need to be careful on assessment of when things went well as that projectile distorted so with respect it most likely tumbled as the distorted meplat & slight bending in front portion plus the arse wanting to get to the front all leads to a tumbling & that’s shown here on that pill of other traits like alloy flow directions here View attachment 792870 that also show tumbles but still maybe straight line
Now here’s the 470ne hydro recovered in a elephant that was a frontal head shot that never got close to the brain as it done a massive turn ending up in the bottom jaw meat View attachment 792869
Yet it’s no where near as bad looking as deeways so that leaves us with a slight meplat distortion but more of the bullets arse wanting to get to the front that most likely caused the boomerang of a turn

The smaller calibers like 375 this occurs on a greater % as they are longer on the whole with less integral strength & one that the nose profile becomes more important on

The greatest source of data on solids over various brands is @michael458 imo but one also needs to listen to @matt85 as he’s on the money of terminal are key imo

A cleaning rod give a great indicator of straightline abilities
View attachment 792872


Cheers

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Very informative. Barnes banded solids flat points have a good reputation. Honestly in todays world all solids are good with the correct placement and loaded to the correct fps.

Fordy said:

Gday
my position is I don’t look @ when things go right it’s the average to poor that I like to investigate/concern me

A few fun facts that some people take note of others just look @ a dead critter so all is good

On solids
Straight line & adequate penetration from multiple angles/resistances is the name of the game

If one gets nose distortion, bending , penetration ability & consistency of straight line penetration ability is compromised , once compromised it’s just a bingo raffle for the outcome as sometimes it will still go straight , sometimes turns, sometimes tumbles , sometimes a mix of those

Every single solid on the market today is not immune to nose distortion so the ability of the design to resist this comes down to design for which the ceb#13 fn solid is the best we have but still this design has a flaw like every other design does & that is that the arse of the bullet wants to overtake the nose

The bigger bores resist the bending but they won’t stop the arse wanting to get the front now it can be lessened by adhering to a calibre to length ratio eg the 510 gr ceb is superior to the 570 gr ( .510 cal ) imo as it’s less likely to get its arse to want to come to the front & this is with the best solid on the market we have available today & man to get those ceb to go off line is a rare occurrence

Now move to an easier one to see in the hydro in various calibres ( I like the hydro but it’s not in the league of the ceb ) & most of the time it will go straight but let’s look @ the post of @deewayne2003 above that shows why we need to be careful on assessment of when things went well as that projectile distorted so with respect it most likely tumbled as the distorted meplat & slight bending in front portion plus the arse wanting to get to the front all leads to a tumbling & that’s shown here on that pill of other traits like alloy flow directions here View attachment 792870 that also show tumbles but still maybe straight line
Now here’s the 470ne hydro recovered in a elephant that was a frontal head shot that never got close to the brain as it done a massive turn ending up in the bottom jaw meat View attachment 792869
Yet it’s no where near as bad looking as deeways so that leaves us with a slight meplat distortion but more of the bullets arse wanting to get to the front that most likely caused the boomerang of a turn

The smaller calibers like 375 this occurs on a greater % as they are longer on the whole with less integral strength & one that the nose profile becomes more important on

The greatest source of data on solids over various brands is @michael458 imo but one also needs to listen to @matt85 as he’s on the money of terminal are key imo

A cleaning rod give a great indicator of straightline abilities
View attachment 792872


Cheers

Click to expand...

No problem with the head shot either, rod inserted to confirm it was a brain shot from heavy quartering angle.

The CEB may penetrate more/deeper but I’ve also seen them slightly deform such as this .375 recovered on the same hunt from a bull.

CEB on left

deewayne2003 said:

View attachment 792889

No problem with the head shot either, rod inserted to confirm it was a brain shot from heavy quartering angle.

The CEB may penetrate more/deeper but I’ve also seen them slightly deform such as this .375 recovered on the same hunt from a bull.

CEB on left
View attachment 792890

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I think you’d have to compare 100 of the same caliber and weight to get an accurate representation of a bullet. No one here has that experience. If one bullet performs as designed 95 out of 100 and the other performs 99 out of 100. One is better but you can’t identify it with one successful example. I default to what my PHs tell me. They say most modern solids are very good, but some have feeding issues. I killed my elephant with 550 gr round nose woodleigh FMJ solids. They did as expected. There’s a really good podcast episode with Buzz Charlton on hunting elephant. He says bullet discussions really bore him and all modern solids are good. I think would be difficult to argue with his experience. PHs seem to have much stronger feelings on soft points.

550 Gr North Fork Solid, 450 Rigby. Bad Medicine!!!

@Fordy Well said.

Bending and tumbling are problems. This is why I believe the best solid on the market is the Swift Break-Away. It is a brass bullet with a lead core. This means it will be shorter than other strictly mono-metal solids (less likely to bend).


Here is a link to a thread talking about real results: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...xperiences-with-swift-break-away-solid.87636/

375Fox said:

I think you’d have to compare 100 of the same caliber and weight to get an accurate representation of a bullet. No one here has that experience. If one bullet performs as designed 95 out of 100 and the other performs 99 out of 100. One is better but you can’t identify it with one successful example. I default to what my PHs tell me. They say most modern solids are very good, but some have feeding issues. I killed my elephant with 550 gr round nose woodleigh FMJ solids. They did as expected. There’s a really good podcast episode with Buzz Charlton on hunting elephant. He says bullet discussions really bore him and all modern solids are good. I think would be difficult to argue with his experience. PHs seem to have much stronger feelings on soft points.

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Agreed, before it was said and done I think that bull had 4 different brands of solids in it before the deed was done and all did their job; as an apprentice was with them and his .375 was loaded with a mix of ammo; everybody in the hunting party opened up and this happened less than a mile from camp on day 9 after 100mi+ of tracking and they were taking no chances when only a body shot was possible.

This cup point was used by the hunter; everyone made good heart and lung shots And I was there for the butchering and they performed admirably.

If you can find Barnes, Flat nosed solids, they work great. I have used them out of a 404 Jeffery on an on-land hippo and out of a 416 Rem on a side brain on an elephant at 15 yards, clean pass through on the elephant, the ones recovered out of the hippo looked as if they could have been re-loaded and shot again. Stay away from Nosler solids. Had one bend and deform on a cape buffalo at 40ish yards on a shoulder shot, that was a 500 grainer out of a 458 Win.

Fatback said:

If you can find Barnes, Flat nosed solids, they work great. I have used them out of a 404 Jeffery on an on-land hippo and out of a 416 Rem on a side brain on an elephant at 15 yards, clean pass through on the elephant, the ones recovered out of the hippo looked as if they could have been re-loaded and shot again. Stay away from Nosler solids. Had one bend and deform on a cape buffalo at 40ish yards on a shoulder shot, that was a 500 grainer out of a 458 Win.

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Midway has them in 470 ne calibre.

Oops just read it is 458, they have in round nose, probably they changed due to feeding issues.

Any brand of bullets, that is unobtainable, no matter how good, is in my book pointless and should not be considered as best or excellent. Hydros are available down under and has stellar reviews on Elephant, Hippos etc but no good for me in US if I can’t find it anywhere. Same with some NF projectiles in big bores and the unicorn Swift break away.
Barnes banded solid flat point, CEB solids are readily available and for me they are proven, the PH’s like them and regulate well in my gun. To me they are best.

Anyone looking for Woodleigh bullets can email Chris with Reloading International. You can preorder whatever you want and it’s a very simple process. I did a preorder for 375cal Hydro’s on 8/21 and he said they would be placing the order later summer or early fall so it should be soon. If you want anything Woodleigh, I would go ahead and reach out to him to get your preorder in. If anyone needs his contact info please feel free to PM me. If I remember right, you have to pay 25% of whatever you order.

skydiver386 said:

I've started searching for 500 grain solids to load in my 450 Rigby and I'd like members opinions on what has worked best for them. I can probably load the 500 grainers at between 2350 and 2450fps, and this should be plenty of power if put in the right place.

I tend to prefer bullets with a crimping groove, but I did have Lee make a custom 450 Rigby Factory Crimp Die for me, so hopefully setback from recoil won't be an issue.

I would have listed the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid, but I don't believe there are currently available to hand-loaders. It is still listed in loaded ammo only.

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The Northfork Flat Point Solid and Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solid gets my vote.

Gday
Thanks for link @matt85 interesting stuff for sure

Moving on a touch ( not disrespecting you Matt or the poll ) as I See we are entering the same old stuff again of this vrs that brand .
Let’s hopefully step back a bit & break this down a touch & look @ this from a non brand situation & what is actually doing what

So we see different results from good to poor here & I’ll include the link from Matt as it also has some good stuff along with poor that show the same traits of where the solids give good, average, less than ideal results to total failures & yet the critter died in most cases but what about the lost ones ??
those usually go down the path of people will put up things like placement issues ( not dismissing placement @ all but usually more to it than the normal line of suggestion of placement being it )

Now @375Fox gave us something to think about

375Fox said:

. If one bullet performs as designed 95 out of 100 and the other performs 99 out of 100. One is better but you can’t identify it with one successful example.

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That’s a really good one to work with imo & let’s take the hypothetical scenario & see how we go ?

First bullet A giving the 5 not working as designed results
1 maybe lack of penetration (1)
1 maybe a tumble (2)
1 maybe a turn (3)
1 maybe actually be a placement issue (4)
1 maybe unrecovered critter due to terrain / boarders etc (5)


So now we move too bullet B
& the 1 not as designed result occurance
( Oh I wish we had such bullets commercially available )

So now why does bullet B give those results ??
Because it covers more bases or another way to look @ it doesn’t have as many weaknesses as bullet A

Why comes down to a few things &
number 1,2&3 with bullet number A is a good starting point as this gives us the most insight & it’s understanding those that is important !!
Imo we shouldn’t put the it worked so all is good forward , yes still need them but to say that’s end of story is not getting it as that dosent get us the why’s of known failure points of that bullet number A to fully understand the better option for the task ahead that bullet number B has covered better

Yes trying to discuss openly & with a clear head is hard but can be done with some we will see here ( sadly it’s not often the case & you’ll see the same old pattern of “my brand gave this result” & why ultimately the bullet industry is slow to adjust to the better bullet technology of the day we will see in this thread which way it goes ? )

So let’s look @ those numbers for bullet number A
1/ is caused from either going outside the bullets working abilities or the wrong bullet for the application ahead ( the design expands or is of a limiting penetration design or not working on maximum requirements eg it works on a cow perfectly but found wanting on a bull then add various angles etc )

2/ can be caused from number one plus the design itself & the longer the bullet the more leverage it has along with the chance of bending occurring especially the smaller calibers
So now a lead base solid is better then to stop the bending or tumble ??
No not @ all as the centre of gravity ( cog ) is pushed even further back towards the base of the bullet giving it a issue also & a greater chance of tumble as the arse of that style want to get to the front & because the cog is back further it’s easier for it to do it ,
Yep no free lunch as one fixes one part it creates another problem

3/ turns usually are related more to the meplat style or the meplat that created & then number 1&2 come into play with this on some cases
yes meplat style /design is extremely important & understanding the strengths & weaknesses of them one will see that they are not all equal across various resistances

4/ placement that easy right ?
Well no not really if we delve deeper as we better understand the true capabilities of them as depends on what style/design /weight bullet we are using or we can get a false sense of security/belief on what occurred as it maybe a bullet that’s great on a broadside shot through the ribs but shows weakness on big bones so placement is one that is important to look @ what works better where or a slower velocity vrs a higher velocity etc the list goes on

5/ now we hear placement is the problem here? Hmm not the full picture once again as not all lost critters are placement issues it’s a deeper story than that in some cases as if we don’t understand those 4 numbers above we have increased our chances of number 5 occurring & that also comes down sometimes to a result that no one truly knows what occurred yep totally but if you use a bullet that gives more consistency across multiple parameters you on the average get shorter impact to tip distance &or time & that lessons lost critters

Yes bullet B is better because it’s understood why

Not targeting or disrespect to anyone I’m just stating known facts as I understand them & hoping it can help some or someone? While I may also learn on a reply if they come if not all cool

hope that all makes sense?
Cheers

404Pruitt said:

Anyone looking for Woodleigh bullets can email Chris with Reloading International. You can preorder whatever you want and it’s a very simple process. I did a preorder for 375cal Hydro’s on 8/21 and he said they would be placing the order later summer or early fall so it should be soon. If you want anything Woodleigh, I would go ahead and reach out to him to get your preorder in. If anyone needs his contact info please feel free to PM me. If I remember right, you have to pay 25% of whatever you order.

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So, wait 6-8 months to get the bullet of choice, and then add another couple for load development, may work for some with some planning, but I do not have so much patience