Shots And Performance Of Barnes Bullets

KevinNC said:

Animals are in my experience seldom "perfectly broadside". It's quite possible that the deflections were a good bit less than illustrated and that the angle of the animal was more than estimated. As my late father, a 36 year police veteran used to say, "there is nothing more unreliable than an eye witness". Humans see what they want and expect to see. This is not a criticism of the author. Excellent real world breakdown of your experience.

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All deflection angles were taken off the skinned and gutted animals while hanging in the skinning shed. All measurements/angles were taken from point A (entry hole) to point B (exit hole or recovered bullet).

Gday Justin D
Thanks for the detail report
Although you would’ve been better off not mentioning any brand lol

overall you will get people that agree this occurs ,
others will be not so
& others as long as it died all is good & they wouldn’t have a clue what occurred other than death

Then the group im in as we know it happens but delve deeper on the why’s then improve it to another level or our understanding of it @ a minimum

& heaven forbid if someone mentions a lost critter
wow watch the ballgame change then

so well done for giving it some light & great pictures thankyou.

I’ve been watching a few posts now on the types of things & also recoil levels & I’ll see how this goes here as my first post in a while as really I’m too busy to put up with the ones that have closed off minds,
so I like to spend my time wisely with people who actually look @ why these things occur & more importantly how to lesson those results from occurring

To this of mark458 post that got me to put my toe in the pond to test a bit of the temperature lol

Mark458 said:

Any theories on the 300 grain TSX making sudden right turns.

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It’s actually pretty simple while not being common it’s one that can be helped on the occurrence of it being seen/observed less & once people cotton onto to a even better way the results are then to a level that it basically becomes nonexistent & extremely rare ( bullets will always fail yes but no need for these reasons to surface well on my numbers I’ve done tests on but I won’t mention actual numbers as that gets peoples knickers in a knot )
Mark458 it all begins in the transition zone as a few of us call it ( that is from impacting critter to terminal form & in simple terms the way the meplat is formed & the balance of the bullet itself terminally as it travels through the critter that depending on the resistance encountered will dictate the straightline / deviation level & ultimately the outcome one gets

But I am careful on discussing these things as it’s one that a wise man told me not so long ago

& those words ring true here as one will only move forward “ if the common shooter is ready to accept “

Basically people you better clear your heads or up your level of acceptance to understand what actual great results look like & this is pretty well across all brands as I’m not singling anyone brand out

think of it in this way
A great place to start with imo is on the following

we do not accept on the greater majority of people these days a true solid not going straight ( yes always a few that still believe the earths flat ) yet in the early days of the introduction of the flat nose solid there was a lot of na sayers ( I was one but soon seen I didn’t know jack$hit but learned quickly by examining many results ) yet today it is understood in most circles that the flat nose gives greater consistency & a failure is not often seen ( oh yes they still fail but the individual better understand why instead of the pigeon hole that occurs , yes some wankers will never get it as they are quick to blame rather than look @ facts that show the actual why /what occurred )

so why is this no different????

That one is the big question & until that discussion can be had in a non brand favouritism discussion sadly it will keep on surfacing & round & round we go

So just sit back clear one’s head & address the why’s these things occur & then one WILL get less of these things occurring that has been proven just like the round nose vrs flat nose solids , it solely depends if we want to accept or deny

Hey @michael458 I bet your giggling a little na probably pissing yourself heh heh

Carry on people I’m enjoying the entertainment with a few while also seeing others who are looking, questioning & asking so ultimately the level of knowledge is increased in those & lesson the not so good results occurring yes the entertainment comes when those guys are around the campfire talking /toasting the success

Cheers

Fordy said:

Hey @michael458 I bet your giggling a little na probably pissing yourself heh heh

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LOL....... Private joke between Fordy and I.......... for many reasons stated ........

@Justin D. I commend you for the excellent, very detailed report and observations. Very well done.

As for twists and turns, very easily explained if this were a Round Nose Solid, or a spire point solid, instability once terminal penetration begins in any aqueous medium, and animal tissue, since it is aqueous. But, not the case here at least in one instance. It appears that hitting the edge of the rib bone diverted these bullets, much the same as hitting a limb on a tree, causing the instability. Very probable that had the bullet centered the rib bone, it would have passed straight through.

I have also seen bullets do some seriously wacky things, some can be explained, some the question will always remain as to why or even how.

Again @Justin D. not many folks take the time to study the results, you have done so in meticulous fashion, and reported it in proper fashion. It takes some effort to do so. I would be very interested in hearing a bit more about the "windshield" studies!

Justin - That was one of the most detailed forensic report I have ever seen here on AH. Very will written Sir. Thank you for taking the time to share the results with the various rifles and game animals. Curious how the shots with the 375 careened off course but bullets in game often do wonky things.

I have been using Barnes on big game for a few years and still use them with great results in every case. At least for most medium to small PG applications, I have not found the 375 to be any more effective than a typical 30 cal deer rifle. Once you get up to Wildebeest, Kudu and Eland size that general statement might not be true. It just seemed that on thin skinned game under 600-800lbs in size the smaller faster bullets in the 300-338 size seemed to be slightly more effective than the bigger 375 shooting a DG tailored bullet. That is counter intuitive.

I will fully admit that my limited experience is not sufficient to have any firm grasp on the truth. Just opinion. To put it in perspective, I think that a 30-06, 300wm or 338wm would work better on Kudu or Gemsbok for example than will a 375 because the DG optimized bullet in the 375 is deigned to open a bit slower where the non-DG bullets of the others are more reactive and tend to open faster and dump energy more violently combining to produce slightly better results despite them being smaller and lighter. I am sure that there are 375 bullets that do not fit this general theory such as the Federal 270g cup n core bullets. But the 300g TSX is absolutely designed for things like Cape Buffalo and similar sized animals (Giraffe, Eland). If you use it on an Impala it will kill it but not much better than a 308 will.

Again, thank you for sharing the detailed report. I enjoyed the read and discussion comments from others. Well done.

I’m not familiar with different barrel twist rate options for a .375, but will bullet RPM effect the bullet stability after a deflation?

Mully said:

I’m not familiar with different barrel twist rate options for a .375, but will bullet RPM effect the bullet stability after a deflation?

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Typical twist rate for a 375H&H is 1:12.

No company is going to do the math for bullet stability after a deflection. There are too many variables to consider.

I have no doubt that the bullets path through the animals is accurate and carefully documented, I was simply pointing out that you can't "measure the deflection angles" you can only estimate what you recall from the position of the animal as the shot broke. It seems unusual to have a bullet known for excellent performance on Cape Buffalo rib cages to deflect 2x on one trip on lighter animals. I understand bullets can do some wild things sometimes, but the angle of deflection illustrated is an estimate from what you saw and subject to human error, it is not measured.

Your Preaching to the Choir. Last year I took a 300 Remington Ultra Magnum to Namibia. I load nothing but Barnes Bullets. In this case I loaded Barnes TTSX 180 grain bullet that clock out just short of 3,200 fps. In 5-days hunting, I shot 5 animals with 5 shots. I can't beat that in my wildest dreams.

michael458 said:

LOL....... Private joke between Fordy and I.......... for many reasons stated ........

@Justin D. I commend you for the excellent, very detailed report and observations. Very well done.

As for twists and turns, very easily explained if this were a Round Nose Solid, or a spire point solid, instability once terminal penetration begins in any aqueous medium, and animal tissue, since it is aqueous. But, not the case here at least in one instance. It appears that hitting the edge of the rib bone diverted these bullets, much the same as hitting a limb on a tree, causing the instability. Very probable that had the bullet centered the rib bone, it would have passed straight through.

I have also seen bullets do some seriously wacky things, some can be explained, some the question will always remain as to why or even how.

Again @Justin D. not many folks take the time to study the results, you have done so in meticulous fashion, and reported it in proper fashion. It takes some effort to do so. I would be very interested in hearing a bit more about the "windshield" studies!

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@michael458
I take the simple approach.
Pick bullet, shoot animal it dies. All good
Pick bullet shoot animal it doesn't die ask why and learn.
Not very often I have to ask why but even dead animals can tell a story if you look.
Choose wisely, shoot straight and have fun eating what you hunt.
Simples.
Bob
That's why I don't like the 243, to many things to go wrong

I’m a big fan of Barnes TTSX and use 225 grain for my .338 Win Mag. They work for me for everything from whitetail to big Moose at home and for all African plainsgame.
I throughly enjoyed your report. I most often find my bullets in the skin on the exit side of the shot. I like the fact that 100% of the energy was absorbed by the animal. The downside is that there is no blood trail from an exit wound, just the entrance wound.
I rarely find that fact to be a problem because once hit the animals rarely go more than 50 yards and most drop on impact.

Your hunt report is most educational

Thank you

Charles Rosamilia said:

I’m a big fan of Barnes TTSX and use 225 grain for my .338 Win Mag. They work for me for everything from whitetail to big Moose at home and for all African plainsgame.
I throughly enjoyed your report. I most often find my bullets in the skin on the exit side of the shot. I like the fact that 100% of the energy was absorbed by the animal. The downside is that there is no blood trail from an exit wound, just the entrance wound.
I rarely find that fact to be a problem because once hit the animals rarely go more than 50 yards and most drop on impact.

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Same - I have found the 338wm loaded with the Barnes 225g TTSX to be most effective. Am taking it after Moose in a few weeks with that same load. I have also had great results with the 200g Trophy Bonded Tip ammo in that rifle. Both hit HARD.

Outstanding report!!

DB

Excellent report! As I am someone with much less experience than most of those involved in this discussion. I found your report both interesting and informative. Thank you for spending the time and effort to write it.

Justin D. said:

We returned on Monday (24 AUG) from South Africa on our first ever trip. I figured I would post the shots we took, the ballistics of the shots, and other relevant information for folks to view if they were interested. The rifles I used were a Winchester M70, chambered in .375 H&H with a Bowers Group VERS 375 Suppressor using Barnes Vor-TX 300 grain TSX factory ammo and a Bergara HMR, chambered in .300 Win Mag with a SilencerCo Omega 300 Suppressor using Barnes Vor-TX 180 grain TTSX factory ammo. My wife used a Savage 110 High Country, chambered in 30-06 with a SilcenerCo Omega 300 Suppressor using Federal factory ammo with Barnes 180 grain TSX bullets.

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OP, maybe I missed it, but were these rifle yours that you took over there, or did you rent them from your outfitter or PH?

Sabre said:

I don't think there is a correct bullet for this scenario. Seems like the only ethical choice in this hypothetical is to not shoot and wait for a clear shot.

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Jack Stevens said:

OP, maybe I missed it, but were these rifle yours that you took over there, or did you rent them from your outfitter or PH?

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All rifles and suppressors were my personal ones brought from the states.

Justin D. said:

All rifles and suppressors were my personal ones brought from the states.

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Okay, good to know.

By the way, what travel agency did you use and, if different, what outfit for the rifle permits and import/export documents? Thx.

Jack Stevens said:

Okay, good to know.

By the way, what travel agency did you use and, if different, what outfit for the rifle permits and import/export documents? Thx.

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No travel agency used. The outfitter uses someone in Africa for the permits. I did all the paperwork myself and then they submitted it on my behalf. I did my hunt through Reinier Linde of Legelela Safaris.