450 Rigby vs 460 Weatherby

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Brass availability, and (for me) the too sharp shoulder.

Click to expand...

You think .450 Dakota brass is more common than .450 Rigby brass?

What issues with the .460 Weatherby?

You think .450 Dakota brass is more common than .450 Rigby brass?

Click to expand...

It was when I was shopping for .458 calibers. Maybe things are different now.

Had a .450 Rigby dropped in my lap back then, I probably would have snapped it up. But, a .450 Dakota did, in its beautiful travel case, and I got a great deal on 100 brass. And, I prefer the 26° Dakota shoulder over the Rigby's 45°.

Schüler Jumbo said:

What issues with the .460 Weatherby?

Click to expand...

Belted case, and the Weatherby shoulder. Reduced magazine capacity. Also, the Weatherby action for DG.

I believe more in the .450 Dakota case, as well as controlled-feed Mauser/Win 70 actions.

The .460 Weatherby can be put in a CRF action no problem whatsoever. Notwithstanding plenty of push feed actions see the hunting fields around the world. The .460 Weatherby has been in action since the 1950’s. The .450 Dakota didn’t come along until the late 1990’s…….The .460 has true case capacity to push any weight or length bullet, factory ammo readily available, properly headstamped top quality brass available, top quality handloading dies available. So the “issues” are your opinion, not issues.

From the Dakota cartridges history write up: “The largest of the Dakota cartridges is the .450 Dakota. For a while, Dakota advertised a .416 cartridge but this is no longer in production. Unlike its siblings, the .450 cartridge is based on the .416 Rigby case, much like the .338 Lapua Magnum. Case capacity is near identical to the .460 Weatherby, the main difference between the two cartridges being that the .460 is loaded as fast as possible, apart from this, freebore is much the same.The downside of the Dakota cartridges include the high cost of brass, the lack of readily available factory ammunition along with the non standard case head design. This last issue is unfortunately the major limiting factor regarding the mainstream popularity of the Dakota cartridge line.”

For those that don't know, the new DG rated Weatherby's have a larger Magazine to hold 3 down low and one in the chamber. That bottom metal can be had for all the older 2 round guns. I wish I had a buck for everyone that states you need a CRF action and bad mouth the push feed stuff, when have you seen a failure in the field with one of those? Lots of talk and very few facts. As has been stated a lot of Weatherby -- and other brands had issues long ago due to bullet/ ammo design, look at the 458 Win mag and that was in a CRF Winchester. Overall I think Weatherby has a lot to offer for the buck, I also have Sako. Sauer and Remington , they all have there plus and minus, and a new Winchester Super Grade on the way-- I liked the wood. Bad mouthing a brand based on preference I feel is wrong, If you have facts about something, share them in a constructive manner. Thanks

curt672 said:

For those that don't know, the new DG rated Weatherby's have a larger Magazine to hold 3 down low and one in the chamber. That bottom metal can be had for all the older 2 round guns. I wish I had a buck for everyone that states you need a CRF action and bad mouth the push feed stuff, when have you seen a failure in the field with one of those? Lots of talk and very few facts. As has been stated a lot of Weatherby -- and other brands had issues long ago due to bullet/ ammo design, look at the 458 Win mag and that was in a CRF Winchester. Overall I think Weatherby has a lot to offer for the buck, I also have Sako. Sauer and Remington , they all have there plus and minus, and a new Winchester Super Grade on the way-- I liked the wood. Bad mouthing a brand based on preference I feel is wrong, If you have facts about something, share them in a constructive manner. Thanks

Click to expand...

Very well stated.

My criticism of the big Weatherby is pretty basic. For my taste, the 378 and 460 rifles should have been built heavier by at least a pound and a half, the wrist of the stock should have been a little thicker, and the wood and metal a lower gloss finish.

I can't say I've heard of one that had feeding, extraction or ejection issues that were not operator induced.

I personally have a 416 WBY MAG -- to be fair it can be a beast, but I do like the flexibility it gives me -- max load or down load for what I want. The configuration of the stock behind the trigger guard does give some grief as it is so close the trigger guard comes back and cuts my second finger if I don't wear a glove. As its not really an all day bench rest unit -- I deal with it. Like I said none are perfect. I did however rub out the shine on the stock to a semi matt finish. I did a great job on my Cape Buff and a Lechwe.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Belted case, and the Weatherby shoulder. Reduced magazine capacity. Also, the Weatherby action for DG.

I believe more in the .450 Dakota case, as well as controlled-feed Mauser/Win 70 actions.

Click to expand...

Apart from Roy Weatherby's rifles, there are others chambered for this caliber as well. My rifle caliber 460 Weatherby Magnum was built in 1974 based on a Brevex Mauser Magnum action and I use it for decades without any issues. For about 60 years, I read the same things about the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum.

Schüler Jumbo said:

The .460 Weatherby can be put in a CRF action no problem whatsoever. Notwithstanding plenty of push feed actions see the hunting fields around the world.

Click to expand...

Certainly, the .460 Weatherby can be built on CRF actions, although such are generally custom rifles.

Push feed actions (Weatherby, Remington 700, SAKO, etc.) are in the field, however, I believe a CRF action is preferred for DG. This is not a rare (or even minority) opinion, especially among African DG PHs (i.e., Boddington's Safari Rifles II and Gregor Woods' Rifles for Africa). If the .460 Wby caliber and Mark V rifle were optimal, such would have by now (after 70 years) become a PH common choice. But it hasn't, and won't. CRF for DG is no mere fad.

Are there dozens of examples of Weatherby Mark V feeding issues during a charging ele or buff? No, but I'll stick with CRF for DG nonetheless because it's undeniably got the feeding/extraction edge. Even Boddington, a Weatherby fan, gives the "nod" to CRF "though not by much".

Cartridge design has been moving away from belted cases for 30+ years now, for viable reasons. Also, DG hunting MVs of >2600fps have lost favor for the effective 2350-2500fps and its less recoil. If somebody feels that .450 Dakota's 500gr/2500fps potential is not enough, their answer should be a larger caliber vs an additional 250fps. I don't agree with the 1950s Weatherby velocity-is-king "formula", and neither does today's market.

So, when I wrote that the .460 Wby has "issues" (and I didn't even mention needless recoil from its needless extra 250fps factory loading, or excrutiatingly loud muzzle-braked 26" barrels), "issues" was a fair comment, and not the same as "bad mouthing" or dissing it.

Conversely, that I believe the .450 Dakota has "no vices" seems pretty much confirmed because nobody here has pounced on any (besides one comment about brass cost/availability). Same with the Dakota 76 African rifle. I don't champion the caliber and rifle because it's mine, rather, I own and hunt with one because after much study over the years I've concluded that it's the bolt-action package with the fewest "issues" for buff. Besides the putative high cost of brass, what could such "issues" even be?

Others may disagree; "courses for horses" and all that, but notice the defensiveness of some .460 Wby owners here. It wasn't (and still isn't) my intention to provoke them. At least they're using a very powerful caliber. (Y'all should see me go after full-grown men who've settled on the milquetoast 9mm as their EDC, yet castigate the .40S&W and .45ACP.)

Good wishes, and good hunting to you all!

curt672 said:

...other brands had issues long ago due to bullet/ ammo design, look at the 458 Win mag and that was in a CRF Winchester.

Click to expand...

True, but the .458 Win Mag's problems (i.e., greater than mere "issues") were not due to the CRF actions but trying to get 500gr/2100+fps from a .375 H&H case cut down for a standard action. Also, its earlier ball powder easily caked under compression in hot weather.

The .458 Lott has rightfully eclipsed the .458 Win Mag, just as the .357 Magnum did the .38 Special. I still don't prefer the Lott's belted case and tapered straight wall, but at least it's got respectable 500gr/2300fps ballistics.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

* * *
(Y'all should see me go after full-grown men who've settled on the milquetoast 9mm as their EDC, yet castigate the .40S&W and .45ACP.)

Click to expand...

The most awesome 10mm AUTO has been known to make FBI agents cry.

Jack Stevens said:

The most awesome 10mm AUTO has been known to make FBI agents cry.

Click to expand...

Yep, that's why they went to the .40 in the first place. Today, even the .40 became too much for them.
My open-carry belt handgun is a 10mm. .40 is for concealed.

10x25mm is the DG caliber for Bad Guys.

skydiver386 said:

Touche

A 458Lott is like a Glock, it's ok if you can't afford anything better.

Click to expand...

I see your point, but at least a Glock on the hip gets them into EDC self-defense.
Not everyone can afford an Ed Brown 1911 Bobcat.

At least an affordable .458 Lott (not my first choice, but it's adequate) lets them DG hunt.
I mean, really, did you start off with a .450 Rigby in a Rigby action?

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Yep, that's why they went to the .40 in the first place. Today, even the .40 became too much for them.
My open-carry belt handgun is a 10mm. .40 is for concealed.

10x25mm is the DG caliber for Bad Guys.

Click to expand...

Yep. Razor Dobbs and his 10mm Razorback 1911 would agree.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Certainly, the .460 Weatherby can be built on CRF actions, although such are generally custom rifles.

Click to expand...

So what? What point are you trying to make here?

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Push feed actions (Weatherby, Remington 700, SAKO, etc.) are in the field, however, I believe a CRF action is preferred for DG. This is not a rare (or even minority) opinion, especially among African DG PHs (i.e., Boddington's Safari Rifles II and Gregor Woods' Rifles for Africa). If the .460 Wby caliber and Mark V rifle were optimal, such would have by now (after 70 years) become a PH common choice. But it hasn't, and won't. CRF for DG is no mere fad.

Click to expand...

And what is your point here? Do you consider the .450 Dakota common place with PH’s?

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Cartridge design has been moving away from belted cases for 30+ years now, for viable reasons. Also, DG hunting MVs of >2600fps have lost favor for the effective 2350-2500fps and its less recoil. If somebody feels that .450 Dakota's 500gr/2500fps potential is not enough, their answer should be a larger caliber vs an additional 250fps. I don't agree with the 1950s Weatherby velocity-is-king "formula", and neither does today's market.

Click to expand...

Do you know what a .375 H&H is? Has Africa moved away from the .375 H&H? .460 Weatherby factory ammo is loaded to spec providing the sportsman with confidence. What specification does Dakota load factory ammo for the .450 Dakota to?

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

True, but the .458 Win Mag's problems (i.e., greater than mere "issues") were not due to the CRF actions but trying to get 500gr/2100+fps from a .375 H&H case cut down for a standard action. Also, its earlier ball powder easily caked under compression in hot weather.

Click to expand...

So, what point are you making here?

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

The .458 Lott has rightfully eclipsed the .458 Win Mag, just as the .357 Magnum did the .38 Special. I still don't prefer the Lott's belted case and tapered straight wall, but at least it's got respectable 500gr/2300fps ballistics.

Click to expand...

There are engineering reasons and operating experience as to why the .458 Winchester is considered the best of the big bores. The .357 Magnum has not eclipsed the .38 Special.

I guess I agree with Schuler on this one.
The belt has zero to do with anything and doesn’t matter one way or the other.
My impression is that the belted cartridge at it’s inception was a effective way to headspace a cartridge while allowing for some variance in shoulder shape and placement meaning that the cartridge would maintain it’s bolt face/cartridge base/chambering relation regardless of where the shoulder was formed (within limits to some extent).
Think of fire forming brass to a chamber - std to AI for example, or blowing out a 30’06 to 35 Whelen.
Doing this, one must still place the shoulder in the correct spot to maintain headspace while allowing the shoulder/body to be expanded to the chamber.
With a belt, one doesn’t have to worry about the shoulder much as long as the OAL is good and the neck of the case is in the neck of the chamber.
I’ve seen this with many period rimmed cartridges too.
Early necked express cartridges rarely match exactly the chambers of various rifles but it doesn’t matter much since there is no head spacing off the shoulder.
Now, if you fire cartridges in one rifle, there is little assurance that those cases will fit another rifle of the same chambering.

The headspace gauge for the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum take into account only the front edge of the belt. For this reason, the same headspace gauge is used for the cartridges 378 Weatherby Magnum and 460 Weatherby Magnum.

I'm a bit late to the party but here's my 2 cents. I shot a 460 Weatherby once, and once was enough to know I wasn't into self abuse. I personally don't see enough advantage in the FPS to justify the additional recoil. My caliber of choice is the 458 Lott so I'm not scared of recoil within reason. I have a 450 Rigby that I'm going to shoot for the first time next Monday. I'm meeting someone at the range that wants to step up in caliber from his 375 for a buffalo hunt and I'm bringing the 450 Rigby, a 458 Lott and a couple of 416 Rigbys for him to try. I'm looking forward to seeing what the 450 Rigby feels like, and how it shoots.

My biggest deciding factor has been touched on a bit within this thread. How many of you out there know of any PH'S that carry a 460 Weatherby. I've been going to Africa for about 25 years now and 13 trips in and I've never met a PH with a 460 Weatherby. The guys who do it for a living know what's going on. I feel it's worth paying attention to what they use because they put their life on the line every day.

Not trying to talk anyone out of using the 460. If that's your caliber of choice then by all means go forth and have fun. It's just not for me.