The ultimate Elk Cartridge? - Does a Man-Bun make you more sensitive to recoil?

JG26Irish_2 said:

Apologies to our Gen-X hunters out there if I step on your toes. I enjoy reading and watching videos about other hunters thoughts on best cartridges for various hunting applications. This morning I watched one that made me wonder WTF is going on with today's hunters?

The hunter was about late twenties to early thirties and lived somewhere out west where he hunts Elk every year. He was musing on what makes the ideal Elk cartridge. A big Magnum like a 300wm or a smaller, lighter round like the 6.5cm? He cited studies which concluded that bullet caliber and weight and energy do not matter at all or much anyways and that first shot accuracy is the most critical variable. Not hard to argue so far. He also cited a study by the US Army stating that soldiers rifle accuracy and shotgun accuracy fell off once recoil exceeded 11 ft-lbs. Really?? I wondered if the test subjects were field cooks or Delta operators, lol.

The author then went on to say that he flinches when he shoots a 308. At this point I noticed his Man-Bun and was reminded of a study of the pussification of the American male and that American men of today have a 20% lower testosterone level when compared to the men of 1947. Anyways in the end this so-called expert claimed that the absolute best Elk cartridge is the 22 Creedmore but that since it is not legal in all Elk hunting states, he recommends the 6.5 Creedmore over other notable choices like the 338wm or 300wm or 7mm RM etc. His argument is that lung tissue is easy to damage and if you shoot an Elk thru both lungs with a 22 it kills them just as dead as if you shoot them with a 338 Lapua and it won't hurt your shoulder. Well Hell, who knew? His logic is that all hunters shoot light recoiling rifles better than the big heavy hitters like 300wm thus they will place their hits better on game in the field if they shoot a mild cartridge and the animal will not know any better.

I have been prepping for a fall Elk & Moose hunt and was struggling with the choice between a 338wm or a 7mm RM and all this time all I needed to do was bring my 243. For the record the rifle that I shoot most accurately is my Sako S20 Hybrid in 243 with a 5-25x scope. The recoil is nothing but the big ass tgt scope is useless for hunting unless you are shooting very long shots from a solid rest in open territory. Think plains prairie dog or coyote maybe pronghorn. Not much else. That said the rifles I shoot best also include a 375HH, 7mmRM, 30-06 and a 7mm/08. All of those kick more than my 243 and all of them have proper hunting glass on them. So, I cannot buy the theory that recoil reduces accuracy. It just forces hunters to practice and concentrate on fundamental marksmanship technique. But, for the record, my hair is not long enough to pull back into a Man-Bun and likely never will be. My daughter is 5' 10" and is a size 2. She weighs maybe 120lbs soaking wet and shoots a 308 and a 45acp just fine. She can still pull her hair into a bun but it does not seem to impact her marksmanship.

Any of you Nimrods out there ever take a Moose or a Elk with a 243? or a 223? Maybe it will sound more effective if I called it my Sako 243 a 6mm/08? 80g Barnes TTSX or Fed Fusion bullets. How does it do? Us big Magnum hunters want to know. Pic below of my 243 Moose rifle attached for entertainment value only.

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Pussification is new word I need to note in my english vocabulary. haha, good one.

I personally I do not like recoil, and I dont like calibers in less then 7mm.
Biggest gun I ever shot was 416 rigby. (rental) and my hunting is in the level between 308 win up to 375 H&H

My thoughts on recoil in no particular order.
I think that trigger time matters, more then anything. This makes you develop your natural stance, that on the end absorbs recoil the best. Learning to absorb or tolerate recoil is the point.

Then there is the gun, and the stock. Not only the caliber.
I know shooters who compete with historical rifles, K98 in 8x57. The cartridge is not known for recoil. But after a good session on training they get a bruise on the shoulder.
When I was shooting k98 more frequent, I would develop a pain in my right wrist when I was reaching 30 shots.
Because some years ago I had broken wrist. and I dont have full mobility to get proper grip, and this reflects on the pain.
With more shooting, I developed different stance in prone position, and pain was gone.

I was reading once some article about German soldiers shooting k98 all day long in a battle. Yes, they would develop the bruise.

Now, you take modern hunting rifle in 8x57, recoil pad on a but, and shoot all day long. K98 had metal pad on the back.

Few thoughts of mine on hunting ballistics.
I wil not get to theory of hydrodynamic shock, nor theory of effectiveness of hitting the vitals.
Both of them tend to be lethal, but for both of them there is no guarantee that hunter will manage such hits 100% of the time.

So, realistic thing to assume, is marginal shot, close to vitals, and the question is what effect to expect and with what caliber from such a marginal shot?

My opinion, scientifically proven, never disputed, and very practical is: bigger hole bleeds better. So, I try to take a caliber as big as possible.

And that would be my way of thinking if I were to plan moose or elk hunt.
I would choose something from 300 win mag, 300 wsm, 338 win mag, 9.3x62, 8x68, 375 H&H, with premium bullets, where faster and flatter calibers I would choose where longer shot is expected.

Most of animals wounded, statistically die of bleeding out.
Bigger hole, better leak.

I do have 223 as well, but I just keep punching paper with it, I have never been tempted to use it for hunting

joker2400 said:

IMO if you had to shoot a blesbuck 4x to kill it with a 7mm of any sort, shot placement or bullet selection was suboptimal at best.

If we are arguing that 140-160 grain bullets in 6.5 or 7mm are too small or borderline for elk, then we need to have a(nother) long discussion about shooting Cape buffalo and the like with a 270-300 grain bullet out of a .375.

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Here is a longish answer but the short version is that I have had good results with big slow bullets and with smaller fast bullets but that in my limited experience, big fast bullets are better than the other two options by a small margin. If 30cal at 2800fps is good, 33cal at 2800fps is likely better. If 44cal at 1600fps works, 45cal at 2400fps is likely going to work even better. My 2cents.

I did not ramble on about the gory details regarding why the Blesbok took four shots. I had made two kills earlier with the same rifle using 140g TSX ammo in Free State with good one shot results. Upon our return to Limpopo I wanted to try a different load and switched to the Hornady 139g CX load. It is a little faster than the Barnes ammo but not by much. Nonetheless, I did re-zero the rifle and it was 1/2" high at 200y and placed two rds into a <1" grp. Not wanting to waste ammo that seemed good enough. It is notable that this was my first ever experience hunting with the Hornady copper monos CX ammo. Its performance on a Warthog later the same day was stellar.

When we spotted the Blesbok herd, we were about 400+y away and dismounted to move closer. It was an open savannah which makes stalking nearly impossible but using the few bushes and trees that we could we moved to within about 280y. That was my PH's eyeball estimate and not lasered. My rifle drops 6" at that distance. I was holding about 0.8mil which is about 0.1mil more that the expected drop. At impact, the shots elevation was about right, but the wind pushed it left or I pulled it a bit left which missed the heart but did puncture both lungs, just behind the shoulder. The bullet was a pass-thru and broke the leg on the opposite side as best we could tell. The ram bucked, kicked and turned to run left a high speed. I took a 2nd shot on the run which hit the flank too far back, missed one that hit in the dirt and then put in a 4th that was well placed in the vitals from the opposite side. Because of the angle of the run, the range did not vary much. At this point, I had fired four shots but only three had connected and only two were well placed. The animal was hurt and stopped running. I topped up the mag and since it was still standing I fired a 5th shot which dropped and killed the ram. It was the fourth impact. On that hunt, I killed four animals with the 7mm/08 and only one required a 2nd shot which was the Blesbok. I was not impressed with the performance on that single animal since the first shot was still reasonably well placed. I do not intentionally aim for a CNS shot on game so, true bang flops are not expected every time but this one ran longer than I would have liked. Like the PH said, it was still in the salt but not my favorite performance.

What I did compare the 7mm to was the overall performance of my 308 with 180g bonded ammo the year before. On that Safari, I took five animals with the 308 and ALL were clean one shot kills. Only one required a finisher with my PH's 9mm pistol because it was hit in the spine. Plus only two ran at all and neither ran more than 60y. Comparing the 7mm/08 with copper monos to the 308 with larger, heavier bonded lead core bullets, I found the 308 to be a tad more effective. I will say that three of the shots taken with the 7mm were further than the longest shot taken with the 308. I am sure that is a factor. I would still hunt with the 7mm/08 but have not done so yet. The 7mm/08 is about as close to a 308 as one can get and yet the results were noticeably different. My 7mm is also more accurate which was why I brought it in the first place. I needed a rifle for the longer shots in the open Free State zone but wanted a light, short, handy rifle for Limpopo. It was a compromise over the other two options which was a 7mm mag and a 30-06. In hindsight, either might have done a better job. I was not expecting the results to be that different.

Max range with the 308 had been 202y. Not sure what that says other than closer is better when hunting. I do not claim to be a great offhand shooter but I work really hard to shoot well when I hunt and am not prone to rushing or muffing a shot. Still field shooting is not range shooting and there are a lot of variables that work against us.

I like copper mono bullets for a lot of reasons but am not yet convinced that they kill as quickly as a lead core option. I had brought some 140g bonded Fed Fusions to try with the 7mm/08 also, but only had a day left and circumstances did not allow me to use them at all on that hunt. I would have expected them to perform very close to the level of effectiveness observed with the 180g fusions used in the 308. I used a 150g fusion on a very large deer the year prior fired from my 7mm mag and it was extremely effective. The shot was not perfectly placed but was in the KZ and was a total bang flop. But, once again the distance was much closer.

The sad truth is that as hunters our personal experiences are very limited and are all different. Where a PH might observe hundreds of kill shots over only a 10-20yr span we mere hunters rarely get to observe or experience more than a few dozen big game kill shots over an entire lifetime. I have been hunting for more than 50yrs and at best have killed a few dozen deer & antelope, a few hogs and coyotes and one dozen African game animals ranging from Duiker to Cape Buffalo. That is pretty limited experience. Still, I have only wounded and lost one animal where a blood trail was found and the animal never tracked down. That was a whitetail deer shot with a 50cal flintlock and tracked for 250y until it crossed onto a neighbor's farm who was anti hunter and who refused access to continue the tracking. I have had good results with 223, 308, 30-06, 270, 44mag, 7mm mag, 338rcm, 338wm and 375HH over the years. Not all were one shot affairs but That was never my goal. A clean and quick kill being the goal and if the beast is still standing I will shoot again as soon as possible, even when certain that the first shot was on the mark.

IMO nothing wrong with a 6.5mm , when you have a little more speed and a decent bullet, my uncle shot a 264wm with nosler partition 140gr and didnt ever have a problem. I personally think the CM is to slow with high sectional density bullets and 90% of those factory loads are way to mushy, the new federal + peak might be the ticket, more speed with a bonded higher S.D bullet . To make the CM a proper candidate for elk .
IMO it’s a damn shame the 264wm and 6.5-284 Norma got kicked off into the ditch for
The 6.5cm & 6.5prc .( but that’s marketing for you)
I have only shot two bull elk , both with a .300wm (180gr ) but I think I could have used a .264 , .270 . 7mm .308 cal rifle.
Moose imo could be killed with a 6.5cm , but I think you would be crazy to carry anything less than a 300 mag - 375 because of the bears you will be dealing with.
I’m not recoil sensitive just recoil tolerant when the job needs to get done.

I would much rather have a .270 Winchester than a 6.5 Creedmoor, without a doubt.

Oscar

pilar said:

IMO nothing wrong with a 6.5mm , when you have a little more speed and a decent bullet, my uncle shot a 264wm with nosler partition 140gr and didnt ever have a problem. I personally think the CM is to slow with high sectional density bullets and 90% of those factory loads are way to mushy, the new federal + peak might be the ticket, more speed with a bonded higher S.D bullet . To make the CM a proper candidate for elk .
IMO it’s a damn shame the 264wm and 6.5-284 Norma got kicked off into the ditch for
The 6.5cm & 6.5prc .( but that’s marketing for you)
I have only shot two bull elk , both with a .300wm (180gr ) but I think I could have used a .264 , .270 . 7mm .308 cal rifle.
Moose imo could be killed with a 6.5cm , but I think you would be crazy to carry anything less than a 300 mag - 375 because of the bears you will be dealing with.
I’m not recoil sensitive just recoil tolerant when the job needs to get done.

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My 1st exposure to Elk was from a client named Jim. I met him at his business in KY but he was from Wyoming and hunted Elk and Mulies every year near Sheridan where he still had a ranch/farm. He told me that he only used the 264wm in his model 70 Winchester and had done so for over 20yrs. This was in 1988. He described the flat trajectory and his ability to shoot 400y shots if needed. I was impressed. Jim also told me however that his Dad hunted only with a 270 and was also able to kill Elk at 400y with his 270. Fast forward a few years and I acquired my own 270 mainly for deer and was impressed with how I could zero it at about 250y and be more or less point blank out to 300y. Still, I never shot anything with it out past 200y. Deer only and none ever required a 2nd shot using the 130g ammo of various types. To be fair, that 270 load is not that different from a 6.5 Creed ballistically. They both make good deer rifles. They both can kill an Elk. That does not make either one the ideal Elk cartridge.

We have Elk to hunt in KY but the tags are limited and to date, I have never been drawn. This fall, I am going to Canada for a combined Moose/Elk hunt. Looking forward to that. Comparing a 6.5cm to the 264wm is like comparing a compact Chevy to a Corvette. One is small and moderately fast and the other is small and very fast. The 264wm has almost 50% more energy than the 140ish loads in the Creedmore. The +P loads will make a difference pushing the performance to closer to that of the Mag. Maybe we need a 6.5 Magnum Creedmore? You could trim half a millimeter off of the old win mag case and rebrand it, lol. I am also working on a Wildcat called the 458 Creedmore. That is a load that I could get behind.

JG26Irish_2 said:

My 1st exposure to Elk was from a client named Jim. I met him at his business in KY but he was from Wyoming and hunted Elk and Mulies every year near Sheridan where he still had a ranch/farm. He told me that he only used the 264wm in his model 70 Winchester and had done so for over 20yrs. This was in 1988. He described the flat trajectory and his ability to shoot 400y shots if needed. I was impressed. Jim also told me however that his Dad hunted only with a 270 and was also able to kill Elk at 400y with his 270. Fast forward a few years and I acquired my own 270 mainly for deer and was impressed with how I could zero it at about 250y and be more or less point blank out to 300y. Still, I never shot anything with it out past 200y. Deer only and none ever required a 2nd shot using the 130g ammo of various types. To be fair, that 270 load is not that different from a 6.5 Creed ballistically. They both make good deer rifles. They both can kill an Elk. That does not make either one the ideal Elk cartridge.

We have Elk to hunt in KY but the tags are limited and to date, I have never been drawn. This fall, I am going to Canada for a combined Moose/Elk hunt. Looking forward to that. Comparing a 6.5cm to the 264wm is like comparing a compact Chevy to a Corvette. One is small and moderately fast and the other is small and very fast. The 264wm has almost 50% more energy than the 140ish loads in the Creedmore. The +P loads will make a difference pushing the performance to closer to that of the Mag. Maybe we need a 6.5 Magnum Creedmore? You could trim half a millimeter off of the old win mag case and rebrand it, lol. I am also working on a Wildcat called the 458 Creedmore. That is a load that I could get behind.

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For as many inaccuracies as you’ve already wrote I’d think you’d at least check your math. I’m not a 6.5 creedmoor fan but the only way you get 50% more energy from a 264 win is comparing the weakest 6.5 creedmoor loads to the hotter 264 win mag loads. 25%-30% more energy is more realistic with 140 gr.

I am truly a .270 & 264wm fan , only problem is.264 is a over bore cartridge and requires a longer barrel ( which I don’t mind) but the new fads are short and suppressed ( wussy boy stuff) so that trend isn’t really possible for a 3000fps + rifle
Break the 3000 barrier and it requires soft mushy bullets ( 6.5cm stuff )

All this talk about "recoil" , falls right in line with the misguided decision of LEO & consumers wanting lighter loadings for handgun ammo, then the bank robbery "fire fight" and the knee jerk reaction for hand canons (although 10mm is a legit round), then the slower decline back to "lighter loads" or "smaller calibers" , now the MFG, instead of loading to the original spec. - .357Mag being a prime example - there is now * P , +P & +P+ ......

Love the smaller calibers. Took my elk with 6.5prc. The 243 with correct bullet would kill an elk deader than dead.

Don’t forget the suppressor too.

Had a great safari last year on plains game with my 280ai and 150 grain Barnes TTSX . All seven critters were one and done including zebra and wildebeest. This forum attracts the big caliber guys but I submit that the accuracy of the shooter is just as important and quite possibly more important.
No I don’t have a man bun……yet

JG26Irish_2 said:

Apologies to our Gen-X hunters out there if I step on your toes. I enjoy reading and watching videos about other hunters thoughts on best cartridges for various hunting applications. This morning I watched one that made me wonder WTF is going on with today's hunters?

The hunter was about late twenties to early thirties and lived somewhere out west where he hunts Elk every year. He was musing on what makes the ideal Elk cartridge. A big Magnum like a 300wm or a smaller, lighter round like the 6.5cm? He cited studies which concluded that bullet caliber and weight and energy do not matter at all or much anyways and that first shot accuracy is the most critical variable. Not hard to argue so far. He also cited a study by the US Army stating that soldiers rifle accuracy and shotgun accuracy fell off once recoil exceeded 11 ft-lbs. Really?? I wondered if the test subjects were field cooks or Delta operators, lol.

The author then went on to say that he flinches when he shoots a 308. At this point I noticed his Man-Bun and was reminded of a study of the pussification of the American male and that American men of today have a 20% lower testosterone level when compared to the men of 1947. Anyways in the end this so-called expert claimed that the absolute best Elk cartridge is the 22 Creedmore but that since it is not legal in all Elk hunting states, he recommends the 6.5 Creedmore over other notable choices like the 338wm or 300wm or 7mm RM etc. His argument is that lung tissue is easy to damage and if you shoot an Elk thru both lungs with a 22 it kills them just as dead as if you shoot them with a 338 Lapua and it won't hurt your shoulder. Well Hell, who knew? His logic is that all hunters shoot light recoiling rifles better than the big heavy hitters like 300wm thus they will place their hits better on game in the field if they shoot a mild cartridge and the animal will not know any better.

I have been prepping for a fall Elk & Moose hunt and was struggling with the choice between a 338wm or a 7mm RM and all this time all I needed to do was bring my 243. For the record the rifle that I shoot most accurately is my Sako S20 Hybrid in 243 with a 5-25x scope. The recoil is nothing but the big ass tgt scope is useless for hunting unless you are shooting very long shots from a solid rest in open territory. Think plains prairie dog or coyote maybe pronghorn. Not much else. That said the rifles I shoot best also include a 375HH, 7mmRM, 30-06 and a 7mm/08. All of those kick more than my 243 and all of them have proper hunting glass on them. So, I cannot buy the theory that recoil reduces accuracy. It just forces hunters to practice and concentrate on fundamental marksmanship technique. But, for the record, my hair is not long enough to pull back into a Man-Bun and likely never will be. My daughter is 5' 10" and is a size 2. She weighs maybe 120lbs soaking wet and shoots a 308 and a 45acp just fine. She can still pull her hair into a bun but it does not seem to impact her marksmanship.

Any of you Nimrods out there ever take a Moose or a Elk with a 243? or a 223? Maybe it will sound more effective if I called it my Sako 243 a 6mm/08? 80g Barnes TTSX or Fed Fusion bullets. How does it do? Us big Magnum hunters want to know. Pic below of my 243 Moose rifle attached for entertainment value only.

View attachment 777287

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I would use my 9.3x62. I will be taking my son on an elk hunt in 2027. I will use this and he will use his LH 300WM I bought for him

JG26Irish_2 said:

Apologies to our Gen-X hunters out there if I step on your toes. I enjoy reading and watching videos about other hunters thoughts on best cartridges for various hunting applications. This morning I watched one that made me wonder WTF is going on with today's hunters?

The hunter was about late twenties to early thirties and lived somewhere out west where he hunts Elk every year. He was musing on what makes the ideal Elk cartridge. A big Magnum like a 300wm or a smaller, lighter round like the 6.5cm? He cited studies which concluded that bullet caliber and weight and energy do not matter at all or much anyways and that first shot accuracy is the most critical variable. Not hard to argue so far. He also cited a study by the US Army stating that soldiers rifle accuracy and shotgun accuracy fell off once recoil exceeded 11 ft-lbs. Really?? I wondered if the test subjects were field cooks or Delta operators, lol.

The author then went on to say that he flinches when he shoots a 308. At this point I noticed his Man-Bun and was reminded of a study of the pussification of the American male and that American men of today have a 20% lower testosterone level when compared to the men of 1947. Anyways in the end this so-called expert claimed that the absolute best Elk cartridge is the 22 Creedmore but that since it is not legal in all Elk hunting states, he recommends the 6.5 Creedmore over other notable choices like the 338wm or 300wm or 7mm RM etc. His argument is that lung tissue is easy to damage and if you shoot an Elk thru both lungs with a 22 it kills them just as dead as if you shoot them with a 338 Lapua and it won't hurt your shoulder. Well Hell, who knew? His logic is that all hunters shoot light recoiling rifles better than the big heavy hitters like 300wm thus they will place their hits better on game in the field if they shoot a mild cartridge and the animal will not know any better.

I have been prepping for a fall Elk & Moose hunt and was struggling with the choice between a 338wm or a 7mm RM and all this time all I needed to do was bring my 243. For the record the rifle that I shoot most accurately is my Sako S20 Hybrid in 243 with a 5-25x scope. The recoil is nothing but the big ass tgt scope is useless for hunting unless you are shooting very long shots from a solid rest in open territory. Think plains prairie dog or coyote maybe pronghorn. Not much else. That said the rifles I shoot best also include a 375HH, 7mmRM, 30-06 and a 7mm/08. All of those kick more than my 243 and all of them have proper hunting glass on them. So, I cannot buy the theory that recoil reduces accuracy. It just forces hunters to practice and concentrate on fundamental marksmanship technique. But, for the record, my hair is not long enough to pull back into a Man-Bun and likely never will be. My daughter is 5' 10" and is a size 2. She weighs maybe 120lbs soaking wet and shoots a 308 and a 45acp just fine. She can still pull her hair into a bun but it does not seem to impact her marksmanship.

Any of you Nimrods out there ever take a Moose or a Elk with a 243? or a 223? Maybe it will sound more effective if I called it my Sako 243 a 6mm/08? 80g Barnes TTSX or Fed Fusion bullets. How does it do? Us big Magnum hunters want to know. Pic below of my 243 Moose rifle attached for entertainment value only.

View attachment 777287

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There’s a modern medical study out there somewhere, albeit unsure if peer reviewed, concluding that so called male shooters who hunt big game with anything creedmoor were found to have 13x higher estrogen levels than non-creedmoor male shooters.

All that estrogen mighta gone to his head, creating those flowing locks requiring said man bun.

While I feel zero need for hyper masculinity, I do still find more enjoyment in doing tough manly things from time to time with tough manly tools. A cartridge ending in Win Mag, or at least Mag is manly. One ending in Creedmoor…not so much. Creedmoors are great for some things…hell, my youngest daughter learned to shoot centerfire with her first 6.5 Creedmoor, which she also killed her first Dall sheep with at 10yo. Great for kids and petite folks, especially with proper back up if necessary.

375Fox said:

For as many inaccuracies as you’ve already wrote I’d think you’d at least check your math. I’m not a 6.5 creedmoor fan but the only way you get 50% more energy from a 264 win is comparing the weakest 6.5 creedmoor loads to the hotter 264 win mag loads. 25%-30% more energy is more realistic with 140 gr.

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Thank you for your input. Even when we do not agree all the time, the debate is useful. In fact it is best when we do not agree all the time. I do find it somewhat comical when any comments are perceived to be negative toward the 6.5cm it gets a certain segment of the hunting community all excited. I can be a bit sloppy when I quote stats or other things in some of my posts. No apologies there. Still, I do not know everything there is to know about bullets, cartridges and ballistics and do enjoy a spirited debate about such topics. Who knows, I might learn something about some of the rifles I have not had the opportunity to try?

There is a reason why only big fast heavy bullets are allowed for dangerous game hunting in Africa. They kill faster and more effectively. Even with that limitation, sometimes they are not fast enough. I could kill a Cape Buffalo with a 6.5cm. But, it might kill me after I killed it because Cape Buffalo have the nasty habit of not knowing that they have been killed, lol. That is why small, fast bullets are not allowed for such big game. They do not work as well as big fast bullets.

In Africa, they allow such choices on plains game only because the PG animals are less aggressive not because the small fast bullets are necessarily going to work as well.

Actually per your quote, I did check the math in my earlier post but was not taking the time to actually do the percentages since it was not relevant to the point I was attempting to make. I did a quick estimate in my head but qualified it with "about". Reasoning being the mag had almost 1000 more ft-lbs (actually 900) than the creedmore and that was almost half again more energy. The actual calcs are more like almost 40%. From Wikipedia:

6.5cm

143 gr (9 g) Hornady ELD-X

2,710 ft/s (830 m/s)

2,283 ft⋅lbf (3,095 J)

264wm

140 gr (9 g) BTSP

3,200 ft/s (980 m/s)

3,183 ft⋅lbf (4,316 J)

Math check as requested:
(3183ft-lb / 2283ft-lb) x 100 = 39.4%

Perhaps I should have stated that the 140g 264wm possesses a whole hell of a lot more energy that a 143g factory Hornady ELDX Precision Hunter load. It would be a more accurate statement but I would also be guilty of hyperbole.

I am sure that if we examine all of the ammo options out there or somebody's personal hot loads, we can find examples that fit your criteria also. Another poster stated earlier that statistics can be manipulated to say about anything. So what?

If you want to re-read my post the entire message is condensed into the following:

"To be fair, that 270 load is not that different from a 6.5 Creed ballistically. They both make good deer rifles. They both can kill an Elk. That does not make either one the ideal Elk cartridge."

• 270 & 6.5cm are very similar ballistically and both make good deer rifles
• 270 & 6.5cm will both kill an Elk
• Neither 270 & 6.5cm are the "ideal" Elk cartridge IMO

"We have Elk to hunt in KY but the tags are limited and to date, I have never been drawn. This fall, I am going to Canada for a combined Moose/Elk hunt. Looking forward to that. Comparing a 6.5cm to the 264wm is like comparing a compact Chevy to a Corvette. One is small and moderately fast and the other is small and very fast. The 264wm has almost 50% more energy than the 140ish loads in the Creedmore. The +P loads will make a difference pushing the performance to closer to that of the Mag."

• Both the 264wm and the 6.5cm are small and fast
• The 264wm is faster and has MUCH more energy than the 6.5cm
• The +P peak loads in the 6.5cm will (may) make a difference and thus implies that they should make it a better hunting cartridge for larger game such as Elk

While I did not say so, I am not planning on using either the 264wm or the 6.5cm on my Elk/Moose hunt. We will be in bear country and I already prefer a bigger fast bullet to a smaller fast bullet for that hunt. 338wm is my 1st choice. I am toying with others.

You cited my "Many inaccuracies" in your reply. Other than my ignorant confusion between Gen-X, Gen-Y, Gen-Z, & Millennials what other inaccuracies were you referring to? If it was my backhanded denigration of the 6.5cm, I will have to stand by that one. After all, friends don't let friends shoot mouse guns except on steel and paper targets.

Again, thank you for the input and debate. It is a topic that has been going on since Elmer Keith and Jack O'Conner were debating the best loads for their hunting needs. I learn something almost every time I pull a trigger on big game. I wish I had the time and budget to do it more often. If I have learned anything, it is that there is no 100% best answer for any hunting application. Many options exist and most will work just fine. Even the best will fail from time to time as well. Have a good-un.

My 7mm Mashburn would be the smallest bore I'd pack for a Western elk hunt and go up from there:

300 Win Mag
300 H&H
338 Win Mag
340 WBY
358 Norma mag
And yes, the great 375 H&H Mag.

The thread title gave me pause, an oxymoron if you will, I guess indeed some estrogen laced biological males can have man buns, purses and boobs, but "men" do not.

Well folks,
This is an interesting thread! I speak as an unapologetic boomer. Not enough hair left for a "man bun'' but everything else is working fine. I was hunting deer with the son of a friend of mine. He had, the latest and greatest, 6'5 Creedmoor. Very proud of it. I handed him my AV Sako 6.5 X 55 SCAN. He said "What's that?" I said this is what the 6.5 Creedmoor aspires to be but is about a hundred years to late.

I shot a white-tail buck with a 6.5 manbun.

Factory loaded (Federal Premium) with 140g Nosler Accubond (now discontinued).

Luckily, I made a heart shot and it dropped where it stood.


There was, literally, not a single drop of blood.
Not even on the animal's hair.


I took it to the processor, who hosed out the chest cavity while I was there, and I felt the spot where the bullet entered the ribcage. Nothing else.

I'm glad it didn't run.


Definitely, not an elk loading.