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Back country carry gun
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Jack Stevens
AH fanatic
In dangerous game country, like Alaska where the big bruins roam - not to mention the occasional pissy Moose - it’s overwhelming a semi-auto pistol chambered for the most-awesome 10mm AUTO.
The links below feature Chuke, an Alaskan resident, YouTuber, and part-time AK bear guide, explaining the facts of 10mm life in the great AK outdoors:
Below, a squad of Denmark’s Sirius sledge patrol soldiers work their 10mm Gen4 Glock 20s in “bear defense” drills. …. That's as in Polar bear defense when they’re out patrolling the arctic tundra of Greenland.
The links below feature Chuke, an Alaskan resident, YouTuber, and part-time AK bear guide, explaining the facts of 10mm life in the great AK outdoors:
Below, a squad of Denmark’s Sirius sledge patrol soldiers work their 10mm Gen4 Glock 20s in “bear defense” drills. …. That's as in Polar bear defense when they’re out patrolling the arctic tundra of Greenland.
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Gomer
AH veteran
My dad still has the Browning Hi Power he took to Vietnam, twice. There is some finish wear, but it’s well taken care of. Maintenance is a consideration. If you like to rub your gun, it will be fine. If not, get stainless and have it cerakoted too because stainless steel will still rust.
HankBuck
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@RSL - I have a Neighbor that also carries (9mm) and his 1st two rounds are also “snake shot” — I just don’t get the logic? Any snake you see in time to Draw handgun & shoot you can also just take a step backwards —-or if you feel compelled to kill it, just use a stick/rock or anything else. On the other hand, if you are ever attacked by a Bear, Cougar, Person —-that’s gonna happen FAST and do you really want your first few shots to be “snake shot”? (Before you cycle thru to the real bullets)… I doubt that #12 fine shot will ever stop more then a Hummingbird
Mtn_Infantry
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Well said .... Pistol Calibers are also all slow, meaning there's limited to no hydrostatic shock created in the wound channel, and you must rely on exsanguination or muscle skeletal incapacitation to effectively disable or incapacitate an opponent. That said I'd still like to avoid adding any additional holes to my body.
IMO a pistol should be considered a tool to get to ones fighting weapon (a rifle), or as a transitional tool to handle an immediate threat while reloading or overcoming a potential malfunction. I do feel they're great when in the backcountry bowhunting or moving and your weapon might be on the pack. I used to always carry a handgun when hunting, but rarely do anymore. Any other day I'm carrying even when working at the lease, but often leave it in the truck when hunting to avoid the extra weight. If I do carry when hunting it's because I'm on a backcountry hunt (OP's question) or I'm bowhunting (often take a suppressed rifle for hogs instead), or in snake country.
- In the backcountry it's almost exclusively a 10mm Glock (20 or 29).
- For snakes it's an old stainless S&W revolver loaded with snakeshot.
- When bowhunting it's either a Sig P228, Glock 19/17 w/ RMR, one of the above 10mm's or occasionally I'll carry a S&W 69 Combat Magnum.
Jack Stevens
AH fanatic
Underwood 10mm 220grn coated hardcast @ 1200fps/704fpe. Plus, for the complete win, the 10mm's sectional density advantage for max penetration over the .45-class slugs.
Corylax18
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Yup, this is my choice too. Nothing against Buffalo Bore, but I have this stuff in .357, .40 and 10mm. I usually carry a S&W M&P 360 here in CO, were we only have to deal with Black bears. Its small and very light, I usually forget I'm wearing it. It only carries 5 rounds, but if I need more than that for black bear, I messed up. My Glock 20 or 29 are great in camp, but the longer barrel, extra weight and size dont give me much advantage over the much smaller revolver. If I was in Alaska, or anywhere grizzlies roam, would step up to the G20.
I generally prefer revolvers in the backcountry as they are generally more reliable in inclement conditions, dirt, brush, dust, wet. I live 60 miles from the Mexican border, and predators I encounter are much more likely to be 2 legged than 4 legged, but USUALLY unarmed, but not always. My 4" Dan Wesson 357 is generally reliable and does good service against predators up to and including mt. lions, which are also quite common here, although rarely actually encountered as a threat. They usually keep their distance, from people my size especially. I have only had one face off with a mt. lion at spitting distance, but I had a 30-06 in my hands. If encouter with black bear is possible, as is not infrequent in higher elevations within 20 miles from my home (up to 10,000ft elevation), then my 6" Dan Wesson 44mag is a much better choice, but significantly heavier to pack around in a lot of vertical terrain. It is also accurate enough that I have head shot rabbits for the camp pot at 30 yards with it. However, encounters with large predators being relatively rare and usually fairly easy to avoid here, my favorite back country carry gun for weight, speed, power, reliability, and versatility is my 2.75" barrel Webley Mk VI shooting 45acp in full-moon clips. I can reload it as quikly as a semi-auto, and it will do good service on predators and varmints up to and including mt. lion, and I can slip a 410 shotshell into it for shooting small game birds or small game animals for survival/camp pot, or shooting the occasional rattlesnake blocking the trail or invading the camp at night, with a lot less ricochet risk, since they don't call them the Rocky Mountains for nothing. I can also use a rifled 410 to 22lr adapter in single shot fashion for survival as well. This alone would allow me to carry 50 rounds in a shirt pocket and to feed myself for quite some time if need be.
John Wick even carries one, except in Russian Orthodox churches. How could you go wrong?
It is a pretty handy and versatile piece for either self-defense and/or survival, and lightweight enough you will forget it is there until you need it. It is one of my favorites, if not most favorite for backcountry carry.
Webley handguns have been getting the job done in some of the worst environments all over the globe for over 100 years, This one is over 100 years old and still runs like a clock. Believe me, you don't want to run into the wrong end of it.
For everyday carry it is almost invariably a semi-auto of some variety for me. For back country carry, I prefer the revolver. In all scenarios there is probably also a mousegun in an out of the way place, just in case a 2 legged predator gets the drop on me.
As far as protection against really big bears, handgun "protection" is only illusory, regardless of caliber. 9 times out of 10, or 999 times out of 1000, a big bear is going to kill you if you only have a handgun when it attacks. Don't get me wrong, I would still carry a S&W 500 as a backup hope for the best if I had to use it, but primary protection would always be a long gun in a caliber starting in the 400's or bigger. Even this won't guarantee survival against the big bears, but your odds do go way up if you have time to react and know how to use it..
Situational awareness is always paramount to survival. If in bear country, always examine scat you find. Black bear scat has rodent fur in it and smells like berries. Grizzly scat has bear bells, 45acp cases in full moon clips, and 10mm fired cases in it, and smells like bear spray.
John Wick even carries one, except in Russian Orthodox churches. How could you go wrong?
It is a pretty handy and versatile piece for either self-defense and/or survival, and lightweight enough you will forget it is there until you need it. It is one of my favorites, if not most favorite for backcountry carry.
Webley handguns have been getting the job done in some of the worst environments all over the globe for over 100 years, This one is over 100 years old and still runs like a clock. Believe me, you don't want to run into the wrong end of it.
For everyday carry it is almost invariably a semi-auto of some variety for me. For back country carry, I prefer the revolver. In all scenarios there is probably also a mousegun in an out of the way place, just in case a 2 legged predator gets the drop on me.
As far as protection against really big bears, handgun "protection" is only illusory, regardless of caliber. 9 times out of 10, or 999 times out of 1000, a big bear is going to kill you if you only have a handgun when it attacks. Don't get me wrong, I would still carry a S&W 500 as a backup hope for the best if I had to use it, but primary protection would always be a long gun in a caliber starting in the 400's or bigger. Even this won't guarantee survival against the big bears, but your odds do go way up if you have time to react and know how to use it..
Situational awareness is always paramount to survival. If in bear country, always examine scat you find. Black bear scat has rodent fur in it and smells like berries. Grizzly scat has bear bells, 45acp cases in full moon clips, and 10mm fired cases in it, and smells like bear spray.
Jack Stevens
AH fanatic
Holy Wall of Text, Batman! LOL!
Meanwhile, a 10mm Glock 20 loaded with 200grn hardcast gits ‘er done in the AK bush.
jcs271
AH veteran
Meanwhile, all of us that actually have grizzlies on our land or encounter them with great regularity KNOW that a 10mm with 200/220gr hardcast bullets is extremely effective due to the near perfect blend of deep penetration, functional reliability in horrible conditions, controllability, and capacity.
63 year old grandma takes down aggressive, world record size, grizzly, which was tracking down she and her partner while they were hunting and trapping small game in Alberta, Canada. Being a Cree Nation woman who had hunted, trapped, and avoided predators all her life, she knew how to stay down wind, and out of sight, and had the guts to hold her water and wait for a side head presentation when the grizzly was a few yards away. She knew bear anatomy extemely well and knew the 22l would work if she put it a few inches straight behind the eye on a side presentation. 1 brain shot, DRT. She was smart enought to walk up on put a few more in the same place after it was down.
Bella Twin gitn'er done with a 22l (not 22lr) on grizzly bears since 1953.
(Just because somebody got'er done once or twice, doesn't mean anyone else should try it.)
Evidently not "ALL" Alaskans "KNOW" how "extemely effective" the 10mm semi-auto is for bear protection since the ADG&F STILL reccommend long guns for bear defense for their wildlife researchers (although they only recommend bear spray for tourists.)
What if a bear is literally on top of you before you know it, pressing against you, and you are barely able to work your semi-auto wonder from its holster and fire. OH WAIT, it doesn't go off because being pressed against the bear has the slide out of battery. Maybe it goes off ONCE, but OH WAIT, since the bear is pressed against you the slide cannot work to eject the spent cartridge, and your other arm is in the bears mouth so you can't rack the slide, now all those 15 rounds in the magazine will still be there for your next bear attack, BECAUSE YOU HAVE JUST FIRED THE ONLY ONE YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE FOR THIS BEAR ATTACK.
You don't have to live in Alaska to be able to THINK, PLAN, and RESPOND. Thinking, planning and responding still works. Just ask Bella Twin.
Everybody does what they like with their own life. You take your chances with your semi-auto. I will take mine with my revolver. Here is hoping we never have to prove it in the field with a bear on top of us.
Bella Twin gitn'er done with a 22l (not 22lr) on grizzly bears since 1953.
(Just because somebody got'er done once or twice, doesn't mean anyone else should try it.)
Evidently not "ALL" Alaskans "KNOW" how "extemely effective" the 10mm semi-auto is for bear protection since the ADG&F STILL reccommend long guns for bear defense for their wildlife researchers (although they only recommend bear spray for tourists.)
What if a bear is literally on top of you before you know it, pressing against you, and you are barely able to work your semi-auto wonder from its holster and fire. OH WAIT, it doesn't go off because being pressed against the bear has the slide out of battery. Maybe it goes off ONCE, but OH WAIT, since the bear is pressed against you the slide cannot work to eject the spent cartridge, and your other arm is in the bears mouth so you can't rack the slide, now all those 15 rounds in the magazine will still be there for your next bear attack, BECAUSE YOU HAVE JUST FIRED THE ONLY ONE YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE FOR THIS BEAR ATTACK.
You don't have to live in Alaska to be able to THINK, PLAN, and RESPOND. Thinking, planning and responding still works. Just ask Bella Twin.
Everybody does what they like with their own life. You take your chances with your semi-auto. I will take mine with my revolver. Here is hoping we never have to prove it in the field with a bear on top of us.
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Foxi
AH legend
There’s a professional hunter here who was grappling with a 150-kg boar that was lying on top of him.
He managed to draw his .357 Magnum revolver and fired the entire cylinder into the boar’s chest.
If he’d had a pistol, he would have been in serious trouble.
But those are the kinds of situations that happen once in 10 lifetimes.
It didn't take 10 lifetimes for THAT professional hunter.
I have #6s in the "snake" loads. But you do you and i will do what works for me in my area.
There is a man with more handgun bear killing experience than anyone I have ever heard of. Across his career, he was a game manager on over 300,000 acre timber conern which bordered an even bigger wilderness area with an almost unlimited number of bears. He was federally licensed to remove (trap and kill) problem bears, which he did day in and day out for years. He was a black bear hunting guide in Idaho and Washinton in season. He was a grizzly bear guide in Alaska. He was the Western Editor for Bear Hunting Magazine, and he is currently a Professional Hunter in South Africa. He has personally killed dozens, if not over 100 black bears with a handgun, He has been guide for hundreds of other bear killed, counting both grizzlies in AK, and black bears in the lower 48. After seeing bears shot with handguns, from 45acp, to 357 mag, to 10mm, to 41 mag, to 44mag, to 454 to Contender single shot hand cannons. he has formed some definite, probably indisputeable, opinions about the effectiveness of different handgun calibers and loads for hunting and defense against bears. Anyone else who has personally shot over 100 bears with a handgun, the majority of which were enraged and fighting for their lives and trying to tear his head off, because they had one foot in a foot snare at the time, feel free to disagree. He has been kind enough and patient enough to answer some of my ignorant, novice questions over the years.
Here are some of JJ Hack's hard earned opinions:
1. Handguns can be sufficient for Black Bear hunting and defense, under the following specific conditions:
A. sufficient caliber (41mag/10mm caliber and up for hunting under 75yds, 44mag caliber and
up for defense under 50yds)
B. sufficient IMPACT velocity over 1000fps (not just muzzle velocity)
C. sufficient bullet weight over 200gr.
2. No handguns and few long guns are sufficient for stopping Brown Bear/ Grizzly charges. For big bear defense you should use long guns starting at a minimum caliber of 375, with 270gn bullets at 2700fps or 300gr bullets at 2500fps.
3. His personal carry arm for black bear defense was a Ruger Redhawk 7.5" barrel, with 240gr Jacketed Hollow Points. At first he carried Randy Garret 300gr hardcasts, but they proved to have insufficient stopping effect. Hardcast would kill with a heart/lung shot, but the bear may run over 100yds before they die. They may run away from you or at you. Hack shot dozens of black bears with the 240gr JHP's, and "NOT ONE RAN OFF AFTER BEING HIT. "
In JJ Hack's own words about shooting Black Bears with a 44 Mag for DEFENSE:
"The heavy hard cast bullets don't disrupt enough tissue to crumple or stall a bear unless a perfect CNS hit is made, Feel lucky? The better choice and I say this after trying so many loads and killing so many bears I feel the research is nearly indisputable, is the common 240 grain hollowpoint. I have used many types but having done research with Hornady to develope the XTP bullet in the 80's I feel the XTP is as good as any bullet or even better. I have seen nearly every bear hit with a Garrett bullet run a long way unless CNS hits were made. However with a 240 hollowpoint the bears will spin like a top and bite at the wound trying to get the burning "bee" out of there hide. This allows many more shots. I have also seen them fall at impact and roll aound on the ground while bawling their heads off allowing more shots. These bullets rarely exit and tear up so much tissue that the bears really show amazing impact effect when compared to the 300 grain hardcast bullets most folks want for hunting. I would not use a 300 grain hard cast bullet for bears as a first choice."
Here is an exerpt from an email exchange I had with JJ Hack more than 15 years ago. My question in the underlined part. His answer follows:
I realize a handgun is not ideal for the purpose, but for very large dangerous game like lion, cape buffalo, brown bear or moose, what handgun and load would you recommend for last ditch protection (i.e stopping a charge and/or shooting an animal that is on you)?
Stopping a charge is not gonna happen on the animals listed using a handgun so eliminate that from your inventory of choices! As I said above it may happen once or twice with a lucky CNS hit but it's an absolutely non functional weapon to depend upon. It will give you a false sense of security and put you into situations you would not otherwise have gone into unarmed. With a handgun you are effectively "unarmed" against those animals.
I have had a bear on me and been chewed at the same time I had a 44 mag ruger redhawk with 300 grain garrett hardcast bullets. I never was able to get the gun out of the holster to use it. Every Time I moved the bear bit me again and again. A brown bear lion or Cape buffalo will crunch you to bits long before you could use it by your statement of "shooting something that's on you". It may work to deter the animal but your really pulling the auxillary rip cord at that point. I think anything starting with a .44 mag would be better then nothing or a sharp stick but it's likely too late by the time you pull the trigger.
The Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu said:
A smart man learns from his own experience. A wise man learns from the experience of others. (emphasis mine of course)
I have never shot a bear with a handgun, but I have taken time to find people who have, A LOT, and learn from their EXPERIENCE. Ain't the interweb grand.
Holy Wall of Words - He's done it again Batman.
PAYS YOUR MONEY AND TAKES YOUR CHANCES as they say. YMMV
Here are some of JJ Hack's hard earned opinions:
1. Handguns can be sufficient for Black Bear hunting and defense, under the following specific conditions:
A. sufficient caliber (41mag/10mm caliber and up for hunting under 75yds, 44mag caliber and
up for defense under 50yds)
B. sufficient IMPACT velocity over 1000fps (not just muzzle velocity)
C. sufficient bullet weight over 200gr.
2. No handguns and few long guns are sufficient for stopping Brown Bear/ Grizzly charges. For big bear defense you should use long guns starting at a minimum caliber of 375, with 270gn bullets at 2700fps or 300gr bullets at 2500fps.
3. His personal carry arm for black bear defense was a Ruger Redhawk 7.5" barrel, with 240gr Jacketed Hollow Points. At first he carried Randy Garret 300gr hardcasts, but they proved to have insufficient stopping effect. Hardcast would kill with a heart/lung shot, but the bear may run over 100yds before they die. They may run away from you or at you. Hack shot dozens of black bears with the 240gr JHP's, and "NOT ONE RAN OFF AFTER BEING HIT. "
In JJ Hack's own words about shooting Black Bears with a 44 Mag for DEFENSE:
"The heavy hard cast bullets don't disrupt enough tissue to crumple or stall a bear unless a perfect CNS hit is made, Feel lucky? The better choice and I say this after trying so many loads and killing so many bears I feel the research is nearly indisputable, is the common 240 grain hollowpoint. I have used many types but having done research with Hornady to develope the XTP bullet in the 80's I feel the XTP is as good as any bullet or even better. I have seen nearly every bear hit with a Garrett bullet run a long way unless CNS hits were made. However with a 240 hollowpoint the bears will spin like a top and bite at the wound trying to get the burning "bee" out of there hide. This allows many more shots. I have also seen them fall at impact and roll aound on the ground while bawling their heads off allowing more shots. These bullets rarely exit and tear up so much tissue that the bears really show amazing impact effect when compared to the 300 grain hardcast bullets most folks want for hunting. I would not use a 300 grain hard cast bullet for bears as a first choice."
Here is an exerpt from an email exchange I had with JJ Hack more than 15 years ago. My question in the underlined part. His answer follows:
I realize a handgun is not ideal for the purpose, but for very large dangerous game like lion, cape buffalo, brown bear or moose, what handgun and load would you recommend for last ditch protection (i.e stopping a charge and/or shooting an animal that is on you)?
Stopping a charge is not gonna happen on the animals listed using a handgun so eliminate that from your inventory of choices! As I said above it may happen once or twice with a lucky CNS hit but it's an absolutely non functional weapon to depend upon. It will give you a false sense of security and put you into situations you would not otherwise have gone into unarmed. With a handgun you are effectively "unarmed" against those animals.
I have had a bear on me and been chewed at the same time I had a 44 mag ruger redhawk with 300 grain garrett hardcast bullets. I never was able to get the gun out of the holster to use it. Every Time I moved the bear bit me again and again. A brown bear lion or Cape buffalo will crunch you to bits long before you could use it by your statement of "shooting something that's on you". It may work to deter the animal but your really pulling the auxillary rip cord at that point. I think anything starting with a .44 mag would be better then nothing or a sharp stick but it's likely too late by the time you pull the trigger.
The Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu said:
A smart man learns from his own experience. A wise man learns from the experience of others. (emphasis mine of course)
I have never shot a bear with a handgun, but I have taken time to find people who have, A LOT, and learn from their EXPERIENCE. Ain't the interweb grand.
Holy Wall of Words - He's done it again Batman.
PAYS YOUR MONEY AND TAKES YOUR CHANCES as they say. YMMV
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HankBuck
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@RSL - agree everyone does what works for them - just wanted to know why some people use a handgun on a Snake? Or maybe more curious is why some carry a handgun “Just” for snakes - even when other dangerous animals are Not in the area? Having ‘snake shot’ loaded for the first 2-3 rounds out of a gun (the way my Neighbor does) makes that gun Less effective against a larger threat. While it is a good excuse to shoot a handgun and it certainly works - especially with a special load like snake shot….and if someone likes shooting snakes or is very afraid of snakes and a handgun provides comfort —- that may be a good enough reason. A handgun is certainly Not necessary for snake protection but it is effective, so is a Stick or brick-size-rock (but where is a “stick or rock” when you need one??). My Neighbor is a good guy, I’ve asked him the same question and he just laughs saying “I hate snakes”.
At home I can usualy just kill the rattlesnakes around my house with a shovel. If you miss with a rock or a stick, they can come at you, and at my age, they are faster than me. In the desert here, it can be difficult or dangerous to go off trail to avoid them, and it is my experience, they are usually in pairs. You may have to leave an open trail and everything here, flora or fauna, will bite you stab you or stick you. You could also bump into another you don't see. It is a lot easier for me to take care of things from safe distance with a shotshell and go on about my business. I usually just keep bullets in the gun, and drop a shotshell in when I need it.
To each his own.
To each his own.
Schüler Jumbo
AH fanatic
I didn’t see Mr Hack’s opinion regarding a 12 ga with say Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs. Any idea what JJ thinks about that combination against bear?
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Andrew NOLA wrote on Huntforever's profile.
Lbarr might be a scammer
it appears he sold the same brass to me and another member
it appears he sold the same brass to me and another member
30-06Ken wrote on ftothfadd's profile.
I'll take the Vortex scope cover you have listed in the Pay it Forward thread.
Ken [redacted]
Ken [redacted]
