Back country carry gun

As a professional guide, I don't think he bothered using 12ga for bear nor did his hunter clients. JJ doesn't usually volunteer opinions on hypotheticals. He usually just shares from what he has used or seen his hunters use. He did share he usually carried a 44mag only as his primary backup gun against Black Bears, never felt the need for more. He always carried rifles for grizzlies. I have read many places that LEO's and others in AK use just that combinaion of 12ga slugs. Interestingly JJ Hack does say when a bear is coming at you fast with his ears pinned back, Its head will be low just inches off the ground. No matter what you are shooting, to make a CNS shot will require shooting with a lead, at the ground in front of the head, which is extremely difficult. That is why he favors gun and load combinations of sufficient power to give the bear something else to think about no matter where you hit it.

He said once trying to make a CNS shot on a charging bear is like trying to shoot a basketball skipping across the ground right at you doing 30 MPH. Feel lucky? That is another reason I don't need to carry 15 rounds. The bear will be on me before I can fire 6. I read another place where a man said his father was an LEO in AK and had to shoot charging bears 2 or 3 times over the course of his career. He used the 12ga with Brenneke slugs, dept isuue. He said his father told him once, to always take a knee when shooting a charging bear. He said that way you don't have to lead your shot, and you are more likely to get a front to back penetration, instead of a top down angle, which is more likely to stop or turn the bear. He said the slugs his dad used always stopped the bears.
 
Last edited:
There is a man with more handgun bear killing experience than anyone I have ever heard of. Across his career, he was a game manager on over 300,000 acre timber conern which bordered an even bigger wilderness area with an almost unlimited number of bears. He was federally licensed to remove (trap and kill) problem bears, which he did day in and day out for years. He was a black bear hunting guide in Idaho and Washinton in season. He was a grizzly bear guide in Alaska. He was the Western Editor for Bear Hunting Magazine, and he is currently a Professional Hunter in South Africa. He has personally killed dozens, if not over 100 black bears with a handgun, He has been guide for hundreds of other bear killed, counting both grizzlies in AK, and black bears in the lower 48. After seeing bears shot with handguns, from 45acp, to 357 mag, to 10mm, to 41 mag, to 44mag, to 454 to Contender single shot hand cannons. he has formed some definite, probably indisputeable, opinions about the effectiveness of different handgun calibers and loads for hunting and defense against bears. Anyone else who has personally shot over 100 bears with a handgun, the majority of which were enraged and fighting for their lives and trying to tear his head off, because they had one foot in a foot snare at the time, feel free to disagree. He has been kind enough and patient enough to answer some of my ignorant, novice questions over the years.

Here are some of JJ Hack's hard earned opinions:

1.
Handguns can be sufficient for Black Bear hunting and defense, under the following specific conditions:
A. sufficient caliber (41mag/10mm caliber and up for hunting under 75yds, 44mag caliber and
up for defense under 50yds)
B. sufficient IMPACT velocity over 1000fps (not just muzzle velocity)
C. sufficient bullet weight over 200gr.

2. No handguns and few long guns are sufficient for stopping Brown Bear/ Grizzly charges. For big bear defense you should use long guns starting at a minimum caliber of 375, with 270gn bullets at 2700fps or 300gr bullets at 2500fps.

3. His personal carry arm for black bear defense was a Ruger Redhawk 7.5" barrel, with 240gr Jacketed Hollow Points. At first he carried Randy Garret 300gr hardcasts, but they proved to have insufficient stopping effect. Hardcast would kill with a heart/lung shot, but the bear may run over 100yds before they die. They may run away from you or at you. Hack shot dozens of black bears with the 240gr JHP's, and "NOT ONE RAN OFF AFTER BEING HIT. "

In JJ Hack's own words about shooting Black Bears with a 44 Mag for DEFENSE:

"The heavy hard cast bullets don't disrupt enough tissue to crumple or stall a bear unless a perfect CNS hit is made, Feel lucky? The better choice and I say this after trying so many loads and killing so many bears I feel the research is nearly indisputable, is the common 240 grain hollowpoint. I have used many types but having done research with Hornady to develope the XTP bullet in the 80's I feel the XTP is as good as any bullet or even better. I have seen nearly every bear hit with a Garrett bullet run a long way unless CNS hits were made. However with a 240 hollowpoint the bears will spin like a top and bite at the wound trying to get the burning "bee" out of there hide. This allows many more shots. I have also seen them fall at impact and roll aound on the ground while bawling their heads off allowing more shots. These bullets rarely exit and tear up so much tissue that the bears really show amazing impact effect when compared to the 300 grain hardcast bullets most folks want for hunting. I would not use a 300 grain hard cast bullet for bears as a first choice."


Here is an exerpt from an email exchange I had with JJ Hack more than 15 years ago. My question in the underlined part. His answer follows:

I realize a handgun is not ideal for the purpose, but for very large dangerous game like lion, cape buffalo, brown bear or moose, what handgun and load would you recommend for last ditch protection (i.e stopping a charge and/or shooting an animal that is on you)?

Stopping a charge is not gonna happen on the animals listed using a handgun so eliminate that from your inventory of choices! As I said above it may happen once or twice with a lucky CNS hit but it's an absolutely non functional weapon to depend upon. It will give you a false sense of security and put you into situations you would not otherwise have gone into unarmed. With a handgun you are effectively "unarmed" against those animals.

I have had a bear on me and been chewed at the same time I had a 44 mag ruger redhawk with 300 grain garrett hardcast bullets. I never was able to get the gun out of the holster to use it. Every Time I moved the bear bit me again and again. A brown bear lion or Cape buffalo will crunch you to bits long before you could use it by your statement of "shooting something that's on you". It may work to deter the animal but your really pulling the auxillary rip cord at that point. I think anything starting with a .44 mag would be better then nothing or a sharp stick but it's likely too late by the time you pull the trigger.


The Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu said:
A smart man learns from his own experience. A wise man learns from the experience of others. (emphasis mine of course)

I have never shot a bear with a handgun, but I have taken time to find people who have, A LOT, and learn from their EXPERIENCE. Ain't the interweb grand.

Holy Wall of Words - He's done it again Batman.

PAYS YOUR MONEY AND TAKES YOUR CHANCES as they say. YMMV
Thanks for this report.
I printed it out and set it aside—it’s that very interesting what you say about handguns.
Our professional hunters—those who go on wound searchres with their dogs—usually hunt wild boars (60 to over 100 each year).
As I’ve observed over the years, they never carry a handgun with them.
Germany isn’t a country of revolvers.
Their biggest fear is losing it while crawling through the underbrush, and here, a lost firearm is a regulatory disaster, with all its consequences—not to mention the low energy compared to a rifle cartridge.
They usually carry a sawn-off 98 Mauser carbine in 8x57 or .30-06 caliber.
No R8, no R93, and no double-barreled rifle either.
Shooting range: 0–15 meters.
I, however, would also bring a heavy revolver along (in Alaska).
Better than a knife.
My feel good sense in such a situation is better :cool:

Many wear cut-resistant gear
1784013477670.png

1784013815566.png
 
Last edited:
At home I can usualy just kill the rattlesnakes around my house with a shovel. If you miss with a rock or a stick, they can come at you, and at my age, they are faster than me. In the desert here, it can be difficult or dangerous to go off trail to avoid them, and it is my experience, they are usually in pairs. You may have to leave an open trail and everything here, flora or fauna, will bite you stab you or stick you. You could also bump into another you don't see. It is a lot easier for me to take care of things from safe distance with a shotshell and go on about my business. I usually just keep bullets in the gun, and drop a shotshell in when I need it.

To each his own.
@mgstucson - Makes sense to me, as I get “Older” I never thought that a Rattle Snake might become Faster-then-Me? I hope I’m damn old before I get that slow (my kids think I’m ‘damn old’ Now)
 
@mgstucson - Makes sense to me, as I get “Older” I never thought that a Rattle Snake might become Faster-then-Me? I hope I’m damn old before I get that slow (my kids think I’m ‘damn old’ Now)
They usualy just poke along, but they can move when they want to.
 
Thanks for this report.
I printed it out and set it aside—it’s that very interesting what you say about handguns.
Our professional hunters—those who go on wound searchres with their dogs—usually hunt wild boars (60 to over 100 each year).
As I’ve observed over the years, they never carry a handgun with them.
Germany isn’t a country of revolvers.
Their biggest fear is losing it while crawling through the underbrush, and here, a lost firearm is a regulatory disaster, with all its consequences—not to mention the low energy compared to a rifle cartridge.
They usually carry a sawn-off 98 Mauser carbine in 8x57 or .30-06 caliber.
No R8, no R93, and no double-barreled rifle either.
Shooting range: 0–15 meters.
I, however, would also bring a heavy revolver along (in Alaska).
Better than a knife.
My feel good sense in such a situation is better :cool:

Many wear cut-resistant gear
View attachment 776762
View attachment 776763
Great looking carbine for close work.

I would prefer a pump action Remington 7600 in 35 Whelen if I were carrying a long gun. (Minus scope)
35 whelen carbine.jpg


But if I have to crawl into some place, I will probably have one of these in my hand.

Blue Dan Wesson 44mag on left Stainless Dan Wesson 445 Super Mag on right
44mag and 445sm pistol pacs.jpg


Dan Wesson 445 Super Mag 4" compensated barrel
445 SM 001.jpg


500 S&W 4" compensated barrel.
SW-500.jpg



Cartridges

Cartridges.jpg


Dan Wesson in 44mag or 445sm, and Smith & Wesson in the 500s&w, These are the back country handguns and calibers I own and carry and count on for protection where anything larger than mt. lion may be encountered. In the Dan Wessons I have longer barrels, but I carry 4" or 6" barrels. In the S&W I also have longer barrels, but carry the 4" compensated barrel. These guns are heavy and compensated to be controllable for quick follow-up shots. They are also powerful enough I can carry 240gr to 400gr JHP's for maximum tissue damage and penetration. If you carry something like the 10mm, you MUST use hardcast just to have minimum required penetration, but then you don't get much tissue damage.

Funny, I never even considered dropping one and losing it to be even a remote possibility.

I prefer this type of rig for back country carry.
cross chest carry.jpeg


If I am on my stomach with a bear on top of me I can still get at my revolver, I HOPE.
 

Attachments

  • 35 whelen carbine.jpg
    35 whelen carbine.jpg
    45.3 KB · Views: 13
  • 44mag and 445sm pistol pacs.jpg
    44mag and 445sm pistol pacs.jpg
    75.6 KB · Views: 20
  • SW-500.jpg
    SW-500.jpg
    908.5 KB · Views: 18
  • 445 SM 001.jpg
    445 SM 001.jpg
    20.6 KB · Views: 11
  • cross chest carry.jpeg
    cross chest carry.jpeg
    371.2 KB · Views: 19
Last edited:
Great looking carbine for close work.

I would prefer a pump action Remington 7600 in 35 Whelen if I were carrying a long gun. (Minus scope)
View attachment 777190

But if I have to crawl into some place, I will probably have one of these in my hand.

Blue Dan Wesson 44mag on left Stainless Dan Wesson 445 Super Mag on right
View attachment 777191

Dan Wesson 445 Super Mag 4" compensated barrel
View attachment 777192

500 S&W 4" compensated barrel.
View attachment 777193


Cartridges

View attachment 777194

Dan Wesson in 44mag or 445sm, and Smith & Wesson in the 500s&w, These are the back country handguns and calibers I own and carry and count on for protection where anything larger than mt. lion may be encountered. In the Dan Wessons I have longer barrels, but I carry 4" or 6" barrels. In the S&W I also have longer barrels, but carry the 4" compensated barrel. These guns are heavy and compensated to be controllable for quick follow-up shots. They are also powerful enough I can carry 240gr to 400gr JHP's for maximum tissue damage and penetration. If you carry something like the 10mm, you MUST use hardcast just to have minimum required penetration, but then you don't get much tissue damage.

Funny, I never even considered dropping one and losing it to be even a remote possibility.

I prefer this type of rig for back country carry.
View attachment 777200

If I am on my stomach with a bear on top of me I can still get at my revolver, I HOPE.
@mgstucson - WOW, you have got to be in Olympic-Athlete-shape to carry all that (4 lbs. of revolver + ammo+holster AND 9 lbs of Rifle/ammo/suppressor). With that level of fitness —- You could likely just PUNCH the bear off of you ! I like the lever action - except for the Can on the end - and like the revolver/chest Holster rig too (looks comfortable & secure).
I also carried a .44 mag S&W 629 w/4” barrel (strong side carry) on my Alaskan Griz hunt along with my .375 H&H rifle but after 6 days —- when we finally spotted and put a stalk on a Griz - left the holster/handgun on the snowmobile, not wanting to carry the extra weight and figuring the snowshoes + 1/2 mile stalk up/down hills would be enough exercise…also with my Guide backing me up “if needed” I felt my safety was adequately covered. Still, I enjoyed carrying the handgun for the first 5 days around camp and slept next to in in the tent at night….but it must have started absorbing moisture? (Seemed to get heavier everyday !!)
 
My carry gun in the wilderness is a 3" S&W 657 /41 mag with HSM 230 gr bear loads in a Milt Sparks 200AW on a Milt Sparks belt.
@Striger - if that 3” S&W 657 is “Pre Lock” —- that’s a rare find. Nice caliber & should be a reliable & safe carry gun. Certainly plenty for Wilderness or Personal self defense, slightly less recoil then same gun in .44 mag but I think a littler bit heavier then the .44 mag…which would also help mitigate recoil.
 
My carry gun in the wilderness is a 3" S&W 657 /41 mag with HSM 230 gr bear loads in a Milt Sparks 200AW on a Milt Sparks belt.
Sounds like a great rig. I bet it is very comfortable to carry.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
69,359
Messages
1,545,884
Members
161,263
Latest member
c168expert2
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

Nomosendero wrote on gregrn43's profile.
Between Blak Rock and Pocahontas, I did not want to say that on the forum. That's a nice Cat!
curt672 wrote on WoodencrossIII's profile.
just making sure my message went threw
30-06Ken wrote on ftothfadd's profile.
I'll take the Vortex scope cover you have listed in the Pay it Forward thread.

Ken [redacted]
Scott CWO wrote on mark-hunter's profile.
Hi Mark. My email is [redacted]
Selling real estate in dchum’s head
 
Top