Do the 577 and 600 nitro really offer anything?

Thanks for the good post.
I am a ".50 cal is the minimum" kind of a guy. I have heard of and seen a .416 disappoint with regular bullets. I have couple of African PH pals that swear by the 416 Rigby and these two guy know what they are doing. If I was recoil sensitive I would go 416 or 458 with a "tank" or gill type muzzle brake. I make a tank type muzzle brake for myself that is a copy of the Alexander Arms model. ( I think that is what it is called.) People at the range shooting beside me say that it is not too noisy.)

Speaking of noise, everyone who is around shooting is supposed to wear ear protection. That includes PH's in the field. The electronic muffs are affordable work perfectly now. If people don't wear them them, then that's on them. Enough said!

If you get a newer loading book you will see that the 45-70, 300gr. CEB Raptor will happily reach 2,400 fps , faster if you extend the throat and make some more room for more powder by seating the bullet a bit shallower. (This really works in a single shot, but that is another story.)
You can also push the 45-70, 400 gr CEB Raptor to 2,000 fps. These loads surpass the performance of the 450-400, .416 cal bullet in standard loading which many people think is great buffalo medicine.

My short answer is that you can kill cape buffalo well with a 400 grain .458 bullet at 2,000 fps, IF it is a first class bullet. If you choose to shoot poor bullets then this conversation is not necessary.
HAPPY HUNTING.
Thanks for your reply,

My first buffalo was with a 375. Took some additional shots to finish the job. After that I switched to a 458 Lott for my next two hunts and I could see a noticeable difference on how buffalo react. The Lott really rocks em. I'm going next month and this time I'm actually taking a new 404 Jeffery I acquired this year. Shooting 400 grain TSX so we'll see how it goes.
 
Recoil, and lots of it.

They might have a place. Dispatching whales. Truly stopping elephants. Scratching an itch to shoot the biggest and badest. Beyond that, I think their usefulness is pretty limited.

As useful tools, probably a small percentage of people can effectively wield them better than something in the .4xx class. Little bullets in the right place always trump big bullets in the wrong place.

I love the comments on this forum that people who are recoil-sensitive should stick to .416s and such. Where I grew up, the phrase "recoil sensitive" was usually applied to people who couldn't manage a .30-06. Truly, I love it. Cracks me up.
Bryce, Are you speaking hypothetically ? Are you talking about the practical terminal performance on cape buffalo, whales or buffalo?

You sight;
a. little bullets in the right place.
b. big bullets in the wrong place.

Is that what your post is about?

Have you ever hunted cape buffalo or elephant?
Please give me a hint, what am I missing here with your post?

Maybe your post is just a friendly rhetorical comment. Cool.
 
Bryce, Are you speaking hypothetically ? Are you talking about the practical terminal performance on cape buffalo, whales or buffalo?

You sight;
a. little bullets in the right place.
b. big bullets in the wrong place.

Is that what your post is about?

Have you ever hunted cape buffalo or elephant?
Please give me a hint, what am I missing here with your post?

Maybe your post is just a friendly rhetorical comment. Cool.
Do you truly want an answer or are you just being a troll?
 
I think the 577 and 600 both really offer a lot of excitement and likely more than a few headaches.

I don’t have any real experience with either one, but have been giving serious thought to ordering a 577 from Heym. Then is shoot my 500 and realize I’d never need and probably wouldn’t want more than what it offers. Still like the thought of a 577 at time or two a day, and then come to my senses again. Sleep and repeat. Reality is, I’ll never know unless I take the leap and give one a real whirl. I definitely wouldn’t shoot the volume I do with my 500 and 505 Gibbs. Even the Gibbs with 600gr filled with a stiff load of H4831 makes you take note.

Sunday I put 32 rounds through my 500 and 14 through the 505 Gibbs. Shot a dozen through the 450/400 which then felt like a 308 and a few rounds through a 1970’s Holland and Holland 7mm REM Mag that felt like I’d had no recoil at all after the Gibbs. But volume wise, 46 rounds of 500 and 505 was reaching my upper limits of fun.

Makes me wonder how much I’d actually love a 577…just might be too delicate for such a burly man’s man cartridge.
 
The practical issue with a double rifle in either .577 or .600 is hardly recoil, if the rifle has proper weight and balance. The issue is weight...carrying a 13 to 16 pound rifle for hours on an elephant spoor in tropical heat is more than most can endure, hence the brits using gun bearers..

As much as I would love a .600 (have shot them), if I had a .500 double I would not bother..
 
fellas I have often wondered if the two biggest elephant guns of the smokeless era offeered anything or whether they were again more marketing for the safari crowd who A wanted the biggest and B, weere used to calibres so large like 10, 8 and 4 bores they felt a 577 and 600 in a smokeless guise would be a gfreat seller, or maybe just a psychologival benefit.

Obviously shooting thick skinned game you arent trying to shock the animal to death but I have always wondered if the 577 and 600 nitro with their actual velocities probably down to 1850-1900fps impact are actually better or worse killers/penetrators/shockers/stoppers than a fast loaded 500 or 458 cal?

I think you are on good path.

I have zero experience with 577 and 600, and having some time during this morning coffee I draw from library a book I read years ago. John P Taylor, African rifles and cartridges'.

I must also say, due to my limited experience, I am biased towards smaller calibers:
I shot my buffalo with 375 and elephant with 416.

Interestingly, Taylor starts his lectures with big bores first, and goes down to smaller ones.
(If I were to write a book, my logic would make me start from 22 and going upwards)

There is several pages on 577 and 600 (I mean on 600 then followed by 577).

In short:
600 designed as stopper. A professional hunter should have one, and most probably he will need it once or twice per year in that role. Rifle is to heavy to carry old day, and unexperienced hunters are likely to develop a flinch.
It has smaller penetration then 577, but still ample and sufficient penetration ranging from brain shots to side heart lung shots

577 - much more popular (in his time, but probably today as well since H&H stopped producing 600s), and much more versatile.
With soft points excellent choice for tiger and lion man eater hunts. And very effective with solids on elephant
However, it still ranks as professional hunters weapon.

Overall conclusion for occasional sport hunter in this discussion by J.P. Taylor, the best choice would be a rifle in calibers from 450 to 500 range.

Much lighter to carry all day long, and lethal more then enough.

My thinking follows the same reasoning.
If I were to hunt thick skinned game, on annual basis for next twenty years, and I am a bolt action man, my weapon of choice would be 416 rigby.

Since I cannot financially afford one buffalo + one elephant per year (As a bear minimum), my weapon of choice is most versatile 375 H&H.
In a worst case scenario, to rent a (reasonably) bigger gun.

In case of a charge, which with my shooting and with good smart PH I would try to avoid heavily, I will rely on PH stepping up with his: 600, 577, 505 gibbs, or 500 jef if comes to that. (I would try to assist to stop a charge with my baby size 375 H&H, of course)
 
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I was told by a game ranger in Hangwe(160 ele) that a .500 is for cowards:sneaky: .

Hans Schomburk,an ivory hunter before WWI, is the only hunter I know that he used a .600

His comrade,Mc Neil, used a 8x....anything
Extreme less literature and sources about that theme to that time.
Chroniclers always wright only about what other waged.
 
In short, the answer to your opening question is - no, not really.
Most if not all PH's prefer you shoot a .375 or .416 or at most a 470 NE. The average Joe Africa guy cannot shoot offhand very well nor very well in a tense situation needing a perfect shot.
Unless you are seriously experienced or have superb high pressure shooting skills, leave the stopping rifle to the PH. I hunt with several seriously serious good PH's. The shoot .458 WM, .458 Lott and 470 NE in a double.
I asked this question of them. To a man, they said, you can't shoot well enough to stop a charge and are not trained. Virtually no sport hunter is skilled enough. So, shoot what you shoot well and we won't have to use a stopper....

I took that to heart and shoot a 9.3x62, .375 HH and/or a 416 Rigby. Because I shoot them reasonably well in a non charge situation.
 
Brian - yeah, i'd think that the detached retina option would not be a real selling-point for most hunters. My black sense of humor gets a real chuckle reading about that sort of stuff, though. Dislocated shoulders, severe bruising... detached retinas. Woo-hoo as they say, sign me up! Got anything bigger yet?! :LOL:
 
Own a 577NE and the recoil is very similar to my 500 Jeff or 505 Gibbs. We need to get out of the Africa carry habit as it’s not as safe a using a sling and definitely more comfortable. I have been on over 13 Safaris and last year took my 20th cape. No need for the client hunter to carry that way and more imports for them to be comfortable.

HH
 
I think the 577 and 600 both really offer a lot of excitement and likely more than a few headaches.

I don’t have any real experience with either one, but have been giving serious thought to ordering a 577 from Heym. Then is shoot my 500 and realize I’d never need and probably wouldn’t want more than what it offers. Still like the thought of a 577 at time or two a day, and then come to my senses again. Sleep and repeat. Reality is, I’ll never know unless I take the leap and give one a real whirl. I definitely wouldn’t shoot the volume I do with my 500 and 505 Gibbs. Even the Gibbs with 600gr filled with a stiff load of H4831 makes you take note.

Sunday I put 32 rounds through my 500 and 14 through the 505 Gibbs. Shot a dozen through the 450/400 which then felt like a 308 and a few rounds through a 1970’s Holland and Holland 7mm REM Mag that felt like I’d had no recoil at all after the Gibbs. But volume wise, 46 rounds of 500 and 505 was reaching my upper limits of fun.

Makes me wonder how much I’d actually love a 577…just might be too delicate for such a burly man’s man cartridge.
A man like you would love the .577NE, but you already have all the bases loaded with your .500's.
"Sunday... 46 rounds of 500 and 505..." Yikes!

Just for the record, I always loaded my 12 pound .577NE moderately and undisturbed cape buffalo hit with a 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullets usually reacted like they were struck by lightening. It was easy to shoot in the field.

I will be 81 soon and have tested my light weight 50-110 Winchester with CEB bullets for my next hunt. It still rolls up cape buffalo quickly, but I will actually be on a Australian management water buffalo cow hunt near Kakadu National Park in the Northern Territory. First time in Australia, I am looking forward to it.
 
A man like you would love the .577NE, but you already have all the bases loaded with your .500's.
"Sunday... 46 rounds of 500 and 505..." Yikes!

Just for the record, I always loaded my 12 pound .577NE moderately and undisturbed cape buffalo hit with a 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullets usually reacted like they were struck by lightening. It was easy to shoot in the field.

I will be 81 soon and have tested my light weight 50-110 Winchester with CEB bullets for my next hunt. It still rolls up cape buffalo quickly, but I will actually be on a Australian management water buffalo cow hunt near Kakadu National Park in the Northern Territory. First time in Australia, I am looking forward to it.
I typically prefer a heavier rifle for everything other than sheep hunting as they are more comfortable to shoot, and if balanced, much more steady off-hand. I don't actually know the weight on my 505 Gibbs, but it aint petite for sure, I'd have to think well over 11lb scoped and loaded.

My 500NE is 12.3lb without RMR and unloaded. My 450NE is 11.4lb without RMR and unloaded. Both the Westley Richards and Heym 450/400 are in the mid-10lb range. Both the 450/400's feel quite dainty after shooting any of the above.
 
When I was younger I liked those weights.
"Both the 45/400's feel dainty now" I like that.
 
Do you truly want an answer or are you just being a troll?
Hi Bryce, Yes, I am very interested in your answer, the more specific, the better. Thanks, Brian
 
I own both and contrary to popular belief, the 600NE will always out penetrate the 577 when using vintage profile projectiles. The comparison for reference is a 900gr Kynoch or Woodleigh FMJ vs a 750GR Kynoch or Woodleigh FMJ. We have proven this over an over at Michael's place when he was doing a lot of penetration testing.

The original profile of the 750gr FMJ is too pointy vs the 900gr which is very blunt and drives straight and deep every time. I am confident that my commets will garner a lot of heat from the know-it-all key board commandos. Bring your 577 and 600 and we can compare notes firsthand.

When using modern bullet shapes like the CEB #13 flat nose solid they have very similar straight line penetration performance.

EJ
 
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Dear IvW,

It's always good to doubt whatever you read. I myself have doubts too about a lot of things which other members claim.

I don't mind your questions, even though I'm old enough to understand that some of them are expressed with a tone of skepticism. No, no. Rather, I encourage it. Healthy discussion is always good (and if nothing else... we'll have learnt something from you expressing your doubts).

But I would encourage you to keep an open mind, especially about hunting game animals which you have no first degree knowledge about hunting (beyond a rudimentary read on the internet). For instance: I do the same as far as the subject of hunting rhinoceros goes. I read extensively about the subject but have never actually been fortunate enough to hunt one yet. But you have (or at least you claim to). And I would honestly love to get your insights about rhinoceros hunting someday. I would consider it to be invaluable.

@grand veneur & myself have hunted in Asia quite a few times. Or at least we claim to. And have multiple photographs of ourselves partaking in those hunts. Or at least (in my case) photographs of the same tall, dark, handsome mustached Asian man in all my Asian/African/Australian/American/European hunting photographs which I've posted on these forums so far. So at the very least, I'm one hell of an impersonator (who looks & sounds just like the same man when I’m chatting with many of our fellow forum members on video call or phone). But I guess that we can never really know or fully trust the people who we meet online. The internet is one scary & mysterious place, after all.

There will always be at least 1% doubt regarding every hunter's alleged accomplishments (unless one witnessed the accomplishments first hand). For instance: The late @Major Khan was very fond of telling people that I made one of my forest guards shoot my three man eating Royal Bengal tigers and simply posed with the carcasses for the photographs. Mark Sullivan, Buzz Charlton, Jeff Rann (and the like) have actual videos of their hunts but people still doubt if they actually happened the way the hunters claim they did.

But I choose to be trusting towards my fellow man. Or at least, to give him the benefit of the doubt (if possible). For instance: You are a white hunter. Or at least you claim to be. You don't have a single photograph with any dangerous game hunted in your long & successful career. Yet your knowledge about African wildlife and ballistics is quite enviable. I personally believe you.

What I'm really trying to say is:
Read "Tracks Of An Intruder"
Read "Horned Giants"
Read "Tigers Of Trennganu"
Read "Hutan Rimba"

All these books contain identical hunting photographs to my Seladang. And then, if you still doubt me... well, I guess I'll have to live with that.

The animal which I’m next to in the photograph could be a gaur. It could be a pyoung. It could be a gayal. It could be a cross breed subspecies. Those of us who hunted them in rural Northern Thailand & Malaysia back in those days… called it “Seladang”. And that’s what I’ve been calling it all my life (for lack of a better word).

Warmest Regards,
Habib

P.S: I mean not to cast doubt on your credibility as a white hunter. I have no doubt that you are an excellent one. Anybody who helped developed Rhino bullets is an A Grade fellow in my books. But I was just trying to draw an analogy. Forgive the imprudence.
Read Tracks of the Intruder for free on Internet Archive. I’m on page 70, really enjoying it.
Mike
 
I own both and contrary to popular belief, the 600NE will always out penetrate the 577 when using vintage profile projectiles. The comparison for reference is a 900gr Kynoch or Woodleigh FMJ vs a 750GR Kynoch or Woodleigh FMJ. We have proven this over an over at Michael's place when he was doing a lot of penetration testing.

The original profile of the 750gr FMJ is too pointy vs the 900gr which is very blunt and drives straight and deep every time. I am confident that my commets will garner a lot of heat from the know-it-all key board commandos. Bring your 577 and 600 and we can compare notes firsthand.

When using modern bullet shapes like the CEB #13 flat nose solid they have very similar straight line penetration performance.

EJ
But, “Pointy is Scary”.
 

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