22 or 6.5 Creedmore for Moose and Elk?

I don’t understand the idea to go as light as possible to try and take a animal.
Especially on a payed hunt / or hunt that’s taking a large amount of $$$$.

This is not 75 years ago where a family might have one rifle say a 32-20 that has to work on small game , pest and the occasional large game animals that you take on the farm or neighbors land for food. And be cheap to buy and supply ammo for.

If recoil is a issue use a larger caliber at a slower fps and just get closer to the game .

And it’s not really large game where I see it like the elk we don’t have them here.
But I have seen I don’t know how many 22-250/223/222/204/22 hornet/ 17 hornet a 25-20.
Seriously dammed 357 or 44 carbine with a well made bullet would be a better deer cartridge with very limited recoil

And the bullets are another point. With the best bullets the little cal might be ok.
With the 222 all I have seen guys use are 50 gr sp
The most in 223 and 22-250 are 55gr and Remington corlock seam really popular for them.
I don’t think the hornet has a factory load with a deer bullet but factory loaded ammo is used
I don’t know that much about the 204 but the guys I have seen use it were using bt ammo for it.

Gday
Here’s my thoughts
As a general trend in today’s society We ( as a general population not saying all ) only seem to look @ the good & not the what iffs with a turn a blind eye from reality let alone a excuse never seems far away when one does delve into it or in this tech world only showing what one wants is often seen

Guess I’ve still not caught upto this new way of thinking & I’m happy to take that on the chin & try to align with the way I was taught & has served well in getting a bottom line ( finding the bottom line is hard as where is it lol )

Now that gives I hope a bit of background on where I come from

Here’s a snapshot of that of some things
Don’t look @ failure as a failure , look @ it as a learning experience
BUT even better is when it’s combined with a few of these points below
Never be afraid to ask
Do one’s research
Learn who has a motive
Learn who to trust
Learn off what went wrong
Learn why it went wrong
Repeat
Compare (assessment under same conditions carried out to find the line )

Now this above I’m also a slow learner on somethings as it takes me a little sometimes to get it but I do try to gain knowledge as I go & ask I will no matter how dumb it sounds

Anyway now to the op & post #1
I love new bullets / new designs & theories & one I’ll also push boundaries to some levels to find out levels but go back to those initial points above & im not in favour of the new fad of these small calibers on big critters

I learned a real hard lesson on testing a 30 cal mono in bovines & hit one of my favourite resistances ( knuckle joint) to see how it would kill
Well what a disaster & one that I’m not proud on as I’d seen a weakness in the pill’s makeup ( from pictures off other tester’s & people) of the type of alloy used
Which I took my shot & oh my nothing got into chest cavity & put this critter under a stress that I shouldn’t have done based off what was shown when the weakness was going to give out just not to the level I assumed it would
So totally on me & one that still gives me shivers as I type it & definitely not a proud moment

So guess one’s thinking what the hell does this have to do on this thread

Well it’s simple I’m putting the above up as the following pictures are one I got accused of being a stunt on another forum with a few people , that didn’t sit to well with me yet I held my tongue as I seem to do more these days than I once did & today it’s sad that one of those guys experienced a bad result months later that actually was not to dissimilar than a projectile behaviour than mine

So I really hope the following information is not met with the same traits of attack as surely we can discuss this in a logical manner Yep by all means let’s discuss the pills traits not get in a gutter hopefully

Background of thieve pictures
I was called out to do some culling for dog food & one I came to a agreement that I would take a few of the mid size bovines set up & test with some pills to see how they preformed ( I replaced the meat @ a later date with more than I took )

So I’ll let these pictures explain why I’m not a fan of the smaller calibers on what they do under certain resistances where other placed shots will fair better

Now this ear plug was to show the spine of the scapula position & able myself to get the information I was seeking on a pill’s capabilities across what can occur in the field (the spine of a scapula is a hard test on a pill in various ways & a low % of placed shots hit it but occur it does & that’s one of the what iff’s I like to cover )
order of these pics is not organised sorry & hopefully one can put them together
& yes I’m glad I tested this way as it would’ve been a similar experience to the 30 cal I relayed earlier imo & im not for that as today i still do 99% of my testing on live critters but i make sure the pill can give enough to get the job done on a penetration part before I will just go straight to a big critter)
I done 3 midsize bovines

Cheers

Sweet pictures! Any idea what the impact velocity was?

Fordy said:

Gday
Here’s my thoughts
As a general trend in today’s society We ( as a general population not saying all ) only seem to look @ the good & not the what iffs with a turn a blind eye from reality let alone a excuse never seems far away when one does delve into it or in this tech world only showing what one wants is often seen

Guess I’ve still not caught upto this new way of thinking & I’m happy to take that on the chin & try to align with the way I was taught & has served well in getting a bottom line ( finding the bottom line is hard as where is it lol )

Now that gives I hope a bit of background on where I come from

Here’s a snapshot of that of some things
Don’t look @ failure as a failure , look @ it as a learning experience
BUT even better is when it’s combined with a few of these points below
Never be afraid to ask
Do one’s research
Learn who has a motive
Learn who to trust
Learn off what went wrong
Learn why it went wrong
Repeat
Compare (assessment under same conditions carried out to find the line )

Now this above I’m also a slow learner on somethings as it takes me a little sometimes to get it but I do try to gain knowledge as I go & ask I will no matter how dumb it sounds

Anyway now to the op & post #1
I love new bullets / new designs & theories & one I’ll also push boundaries to some levels to find out levels but go back to those initial points above & im not in favour of the new fad of these small calibers on big critters

I learned a real hard lesson on testing a 30 cal mono in bovines & hit one of my favourite resistances ( knuckle joint) to see how it would kill
Well what a disaster & one that I’m not proud on as I’d seen a weakness in the pill’s makeup ( from pictures off other tester’s & people) of the type of alloy used
Which I took my shot & oh my nothing got into chest cavity & put this critter under a stress that I shouldn’t have done based off what was shown when the weakness was going to give out just not to the level I assumed it would
So totally on me & one that still gives me shivers as I type it & definitely not a proud moment

So guess one’s thinking what the hell does this have to do on this thread

Well it’s simple I’m putting the above up as the following pictures are one I got accused of being a stunt on another forum with a few people , that didn’t sit to well with me yet I held my tongue as I seem to do more these days than I once did & today it’s sad that one of those guys experienced a bad result months later that actually was not to dissimilar than a projectile behaviour than mine

So I really hope the following information is not met with the same traits of attack as surely we can discuss this in a logical manner Yep by all means let’s discuss the pills traits not get in a gutter hopefully

Background of thieve pictures
I was called out to do some culling for dog food & one I came to a agreement that I would take a few of the mid size bovines set up & test with some pills to see how they preformed ( I replaced the meat @ a later date with more than I took )

So I’ll let these pictures explain why I’m not a fan of the smaller calibers on what they do under certain resistances where other placed shots will fair better

Now this ear plug View attachment 765309was to show the spine of the scapula position & able myself to get the information I was seeking on a pill’s capabilities across what can occur in the field (the spine of a scapula is a hard test on a pill in various ways & a low % of placed shots hit it but occur it does & that’s one of the what iff’s I like to cover )
order of these pics is not organised sorry & hopefully one can put them together
& yes I’m glad I tested this way as it would’ve been a similar experience to the 30 cal I relayed earlier imo & im not for that as today i still do 99% of my testing on live critters but i make sure the pill can give enough to get the job done on a penetration part before I will just go straight to a big critter)
I done 3 midsize bovines
View attachment 765305View attachment 765306View attachment 765307View attachment 765308View attachment 765310View attachment 765311View attachment 765312View attachment 765313View attachment 765314View attachment 765315View attachment 765316View attachment 765317View attachment 765318View attachment 765319View attachment 765320View attachment 765321View attachment 765322View attachment 765323View attachment 765324
Cheers

Click to expand...

Great job! I love the pictures.
Was this testing on a live cow or dead?
If it was dead, what did you use to kill it?
If it was alive, the bullet made it through and killed it? How long until it died? Number of shots ?(remember, bigger animals have larger blood volumes and take longer to bleed out)
Impact velocities would be helpful, or at least headstamp and range to give an approximate.
A measurement of the outside width of the cows will be a plus in the future to know the shoulder to shoulder penetration distance.

Regarding the 30 cal mono metal, grain weight and make of bullet and approx impact velocity.

Also, your ruler is broken. It is an INDISTUPABLE fact elk scapula are 20 mm thick. A cow's must be 50 or even 100 mm thick because they are three times bigger.

Gday ackley

AckleyHunter said:

Great job! I love the pictures.

Click to expand...

Thanks & no worries my pleasure

AckleyHunter said:

Was this testing on a live cow or dead?

Click to expand...

Dead

AckleyHunter said:

If it was dead, what did you use to kill it?

Click to expand...

head shots

AckleyHunter said:

If it was alive, the bullet made it through and killed it? How long until it died? Number of shots ?(remember, bigger animals have larger blood volumes and take longer to bleed out)

Click to expand...

Na due to already dead

AckleyHunter said:

Impact velocities would be helpful, or at least headstamp and range to give an approximate.
A measurement of the outside width of the cows will be a plus in the future to know the shoulder to shoulder penetration distance.

Click to expand...

These were young Mickey bulls around 9 to 14 months of age I’d say ( teeth also showed this age bracket & weight wise around 350 /380 ish 400lbs would’ve maxed the larger one out on my thoughts but I usually on these size critters get within 20 to 30 lbs .
on the outside measurement that I’d have to check my notes of similar breeds of those ones ( feed&breed show difference ) as I didn’t do those measurements that day sorry or I’ve misplaced that info but overall these are not thick set ( meaty types) critters
Impact velocities on the dead critters
88eldm 2850ish
57hht 3100

AckleyHunter said:

Regarding the 30 cal mono metal, grain weight and make of bullet and approx impact velocity.

Click to expand...

135gr apex afterburner stage 1 ( this stage 1 had alloy issues that were addressed by owner once I pointed this out & a velocity limit was placed on this alloy information for all to see (I liked that as he didn’t hide information like some other companies I’ve done stuff for ) for which apex is now upto a stage 3 & not a hint of a alloy issue these days & I have tested those under some even more extreme to verify this of over 4k impact but probably better for another thread on the apex as a whole lot of good stuff with these pills today in stage 3 especially)
impact velocity was approximately 3600 now I even went higher than that to around 3750 but failed to find anything that resembled part of a projectile shank as per pic above as basically it was for poor words like sand /course sugar particles that were found & here’s one recovered shank of a stage 1 around 3200 impact where the fracturing settled ( I took stage 3 past 4 k impact on knuckle shots &no fractures @ all but another thread is best i believe as I’m trying not too derail too much )

AckleyHunter said:

Also, your ruler is broken. It is an INDISTUPABLE fact elk scapula are 20 mm thick. A cow's must be 50 or even 100 mm thick because they are three times bigger.

Click to expand...

That’s a classic & thanks for the questions in a pleasant manner I hope i answered them in a easy to understandable manner

Cheers

Fordy said:

Gday ackley

Thanks & no worries my pleasure

Dead

head shots

Na due to already dead

These were young Mickey bulls around 9 to 14 months of age I’d say ( teeth also showed this age bracket & weight wise around 350 /380 ish 400lbs would’ve maxed the larger one out on my thoughts but I usually on these size critters get within 20 to 30 lbs .
on the outside measurement that I’d have to check my notes of similar breeds of those ones ( feed&breed show difference ) as I didn’t do those measurements that day sorry or I’ve misplaced that info but overall these are not thick set ( meaty types) critters
Impact velocities on the dead critters
88eldm 2850ish
57hht 3100



135gr apex afterburner stage 1 ( this stage 1 had alloy issues that were addressed by owner once I pointed this out & a velocity limit was placed on this alloy information for all to see (I liked that as he didn’t hide information like some other companies I’ve done stuff for ) for which apex is now upto a stage 3 & not a hint of a alloy issue these days & I have tested those under some even more extreme to verify this of over 4k impact but probably better for another thread on the apex as a whole lot of good stuff with these pills today in stage 3 especially)
impact velocity was approximately 3600 View attachment 765502View attachment 765503now I even went higher than that to around 3750 but failed to find anything that resembled part of a projectile shank as per pic above as basically it was for poor words like sand /course sugar particles that were found & here’s one recovered shank of a stage 1 around 3200 impact where the fracturing settled ( I took stage 3 past 4 k impact on knuckle shots &no fractures @ all but another thread is best i believe as I’m trying not too derail too much )

That’s a classic & thanks for the questions in a pleasant manner I hope i answered them in a easy to understandable manner

Cheers

Click to expand...

Thanks for the update.

Appears impact velocity was too high for those projectiles. Surprising for the copper, but I am not familar with that brand. McGuire Ballistics likes to run their coppers super fast too. Wonder how well they really hold up at those velocities.

Don't let the naysayers stop you from posting. More real world data is always a good thing. Thanks!

AckleyHunter said:

More real world data is always a good thing

Click to expand...

Cant overstate this. Individually, not many people put enough bullets into enough animals in enough scenarios to have any meaningful data set on anything. Collectively, the few thousand people posting here certainly do. We all just need to do a better job documententing and sharing our data so that we can all benefit.

Choupique said:

Cant overstate this. Individually, not many people put enough bullets into enough animals in enough scenarios to have any meaningful data set on anything. Collectively, the few thousand people posting here certainly do. We all just need to do a better job documententing and sharing our data so that we can all benefit.

Click to expand...

You should check out the bullet performance data base thead.

Here my last post. 6.5mm 147 eld- MATCH
On a Nilgai at 45~ yards. Blasphemy!!!


Post in thread 'Bullet Performance Database'
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/bullet-performance-database.37971/post-1573656

dchum said:

You should check out the bullet performance data base thead.

Here my last post. 6.5mm 147 eld- MATCH
On a Nilgai at 45~ yards. Blasphemy!!!


Post in thread 'Bullet Performance Database'
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/bullet-performance-database.37971/post-1573656

Click to expand...

I believe the word I used was "heresy"

Gday choupique

Choupique said:

Cant overstate this. Individually, not many people put enough bullets into enough animals in enough scenarios to have any meaningful data set on anything. Collectively, the few thousand people posting here certainly do. We all just need to do a better job documententing and sharing our data so that we can all benefit.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with this with a caveat & that is we see different reactions/thoughts from a individual level on what is acceptable killing efficiency/effectiveness yes varying degrees from person to person is a hard one to get to come together on speaking the same language

I personally believe this is ok to still have & is actually healthy for a general moving forward to a better understanding of the capabilities of whatever caliber or pill is used as if we take it from a base of what did the actual caliber /pill combo actually do on importantly on what resistance then is that combo consistent @ doing it or is it erratic

Which I can confirm if one is open minded & willing to delve a little deeper even learn other languages ( I don’t mean a language in nationality I mean a language of how the bullet preformed or did as we say things a little differently but it’s actually funny how some of us actually speak the same language just different word’s ) once that line is crossed it is extremely pleasing on how much one can learn the sad part is usually it’s not in the public domain as the white noise that seems to creep in , the words often become muffled or muted & we end up loosing sight
Jm2cw
Cheers

Gday ackley

AckleyHunter said:

Thanks for the update.

Click to expand...

Your welcome

AckleyHunter said:

Appears impact velocity was too high for those projectiles. Surprising for the copper, but I am not familar with that brand.

Click to expand...

Yes definitely too high for apex stage 1 but mark learned and advised his customers of that which is a great trait to have & builds trust that’s for sure ( for me it does ) & watching his journey gives me pleasure of knowing he’s also in it cause he cares

AckleyHunter said:

McGuire Ballistics likes to run their coppers super fast too. Wonder how well they really hold up at those velocities.

Click to expand...

On McGuire those I’ve personally not taken past 3800 ( all good there & also taken plenty of game in the low 2’s & many In between )but soon will & plan to push well into the 4k mark but for other reasons I’m wanting impacts that fast as it shows how his design works across various levels, one of my good mates pushed one McGuire to that close to 5k impact it isn’t funny which I’m not going to bother testing that side as that’s way more than I’ll get to & his multiple impacts showed no signs of alloy issues which I trust him & pictures pretty cool also ( I’m testing the shapecharge , bubble & detonation point as Sam likes to call it , I call it where it pops plus I’ll do a variety of velocity impacts @ various resistances to see what it does there & he’s another company that i quite enjoy speaking with as his understanding of terminals is pretty good

AckleyHunter said:

Don't let the naysayers stop you from posting. More real world data is always a good thing. Thanks!

Click to expand...

I’ll try & have been trying to get back into it as I had said i would give it a go to my ph last year so really the thanks should go to him as without his pushing me or dangling a carrot lol ( no bribes or anything just my poor try @ humour that some are understanding of now) I honestly wouldn’t be here but now I’ve been for a bit I can say I’m glad I am as the behind the closed door stuff is pretty amazing what’s been disputed discredited confirmed yep basically found out a few more things to add to the list which one’s level of understanding grows

I need to make this clear I don’t know everything or every pill just have a few bits & pieces that others may not have delved that deep into which I’ll drop in a thread or 2 & just feel the water to see how deep I’ll go or if I’m after more information I’ll ask away yes I do enjoy both sides of the coin


Cheers

ElevenBravo said:

I believe the word I used was "heresy"

Click to expand...

Not sure why you think I was talking to you

dchum said:

Not sure why you think I was talking to you

Click to expand...

Plenty of spicy people on here today.

Watch Youtube about all the grizzley and black bear attacks lately .If your hunting elk or moose there will be bears .Montana Alaska Idaho and several other states now have lots of bears .The craziest bear attack was from a 760 pound black bear in North Carolinia shot three times with 3006 thought to be dead .It woke up while getting its picture taken opemed it eyes and bit the guys arm and leg breaking it .They shot it a couple more times .Read Alaska bear tales it will tell you why a bigger gun is better .We always layed my 416 rem mag beside moose we were cleaning in Alaska for bears .I had a friend who killed a huge griz with a shotgun after 15 shots with slugs .He now only hunts with 458 win mag because he was charged and attacked .I like 338 win mag with 250 gr bullets in bear country just for that reason .

MS 9x56 said:

Sadly not anymore.

Click to expand...

Some say that as long as you are remembered, you never really die. Chuck Norris will never really die, and will continue to go killing. Wherever he is.

Old Indian saying”just because you can, doesn’t mean you should”.

I think i would stick with big boy calibers .

Going elk hunting this coming winter. The range will be close. I've got 2 9.3x62's, a .375/06IMP that gives H&H factory ammo speeds. The 9.3x62's are VERY close to that. I have 4 6.5's, 2 6.5x55's, a 6.5x57 and a VERY accurate .260 Rem. I built. I also have a M76 in .50/95(that would be cool to use that), but this will be strictly a meat hunt. I'm taking my M86 in .45/70 with 350gr. Hornady FN's @ 2,060fps.
A 6.5 will work. A .22? NO BLOODY WAY. In BC, you could legally use one, or ANY C.F., but would it be ethical? I don't think so.

I have killed Moose with my 6.5CM. Speed kills more than diameter. I also have a slow .308 that requires multiple shots. While my .308 is accurate, my 6.5CM blueprints holes.

My experience with the 6.5cm: fully mature kudu bul ( animal very fat since they eat in agriculture fields), 140 grTGK at 2650ft/s muzzle velocity, 250 yards, shoulder shot, recovered the bullet under the skin on the opposite side shoulder. Heart shot, the animal expired where it stood. Broke rib bones on its way in and out.
We mostly use the rifle to control warthogs, I would and have not hesitate to use it one larger animals.
I do not argue that it's the best, but it's perfectly usable when used within bullet performance envelopes.