22 or 6.5 Creedmore for Moose and Elk?

[AckleyHunter]

substantially

We have a different opinion on the meaning of this word.

No elk has a 20mm thick scapula, period.

 

[TMac]

Shout out to our Creemore fans. QUESTION: Is a 6.5CM or a 22CM the ideal Elk hunting rifle? Do you use one to hunt big game? If so, which game animals. How has it performed for you?

All that said, I have encountered examples recently where hunters used for example 223 to take Axis deer with stunning results. I have seen side by side tests on ballistic gel using Federal Fusion bonded bullets in 243, 308 and 30-06 where the 243 penetrated just as deep and did comparable damage along its path which would suggest that on game the result would also be similar (assuming a perfect broadside shot properly placed). None of that makes me want to trade my magnum for a 243 let alone a 22 CM for an upcoming Moose hunt.

So, where do you fall on this Question? Is a 6.5CM or a 22CM the ideal Elk hunting rifle? Do you use one to hunt big game? Is so which animals have you hunted? How has it performed for you?

I have 18 years experience with my kids/grandkids with the 223 Rem & 260 Rem for pronghorn, deer and cow elk. About 20 animals taken by them with those two rounds. Myself, I use a 270 Win or 280 Rem, but I have seen these smaller/less powerful rounds work extremely well when properly employed.

Is it ideal, no. Is it adequate under certain conditions, yes. With the youth recoil can be a big issue. My solution is to use smaller rounds and limit all shots to perfect broadside presentations at limited range.

For deer and pronghorn, the 223 is effective to about 250, maybe 300 yards based on retained velocity and bullet selection. But I’ve managed to always get the kids to under 200 yards. Bullets used were the 62 gr. Federal Fusion, 64 gr. Win PP and 77 gr. Sierra TMK. All were quick kills, half were bang flops, the rest within 25 yards or so.

In the 260 we used 140 gr. Core-Lokts. No DRT, but all down within 35 ish yards.

There was one case where a 270 Win with a 140 gr. Tipped Trophy Bonded bullets was used and the next day the 223 with 77 gr. TMK’s was used on cow elk. Both shot from the same distance from the same stand. Both 80 ish yard bang flops. Internal damage was indistinguishable.

Largest game taken was a cow elk with the 260 Rem. at about 100 yards. Hanging at 341 pounds, probably close to 600 live. She went 25 yards and tipped over from one shot in the lungs. I lung shot a cow elk with my 280 Rem at 25 yards with a 175 gr. Partition. She made it 15 yards. Internal damage looked very similar.

So for me the smaller cartridges work very well with correct placement to moderate range. Ideal no, effective within their limits yes.

 

[Choupique]

you're just not going to hit anywhere near the kinetic energy needed to ethically take down medium-sized game.

Thats the thing. Guys are doing it with .22 caliber 80gr bullets. Why would a 6.5mm bullet not have anywhere near the energy needed?

Its also not really an energy problem. A 250gr .338 bullet might get there with more energy than the .22 has at the muzzle. If the .338 bullet doesn't use that energy to do work on the animal as efficiently as the .22 does, it stands to reason the .338 might well do less damage and therefore, kill slower than the .22 might. Ive seen this countless times on deer.

Like I said earlier, im not a devout convert yet. I need to kill more stuff myself with one before I'll risk an elk hunt strapped to a .22 caliber rifle. I might well do it one day though.

 

[ElevenBravo]

Burn the witch!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. But your unsupported assumptions and meaningless quips are bordering on religion.

Let's not get personal.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Let's not get personal.

Your right, I am sorry

 

[farmer_john]

Burn the witch!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. But your unsupported assumptions and meaningless quips are bordering on religion.

 

[farmer_john]

Let's not get personal.

He turned me into a newt!.... but i got better

 

[pilar]

How does kinetic energy kill? An fmj and an expanding bullet of the same mass and velocity have the same energy. Do they both kill as 'ethically'?

IMHO a FMJ is not designed to kill , it’s a military tool in logistics and weapons functionality , dead bodies don’t need a support system .
“”
Caring for a wounded soldier is a massive operational effort that scales from the battlefield to long-term recovery, requiring dozens of individuals to support a single casualty. The exact number depends on the stage of care: [1]

• Battlefield (1-6+ soldiers): Requires a combat medic and immediate team members for first aid, securing the area, and carrying the wounded to an extraction point.
• Evacuation (4-6 crew): Requires a dedicated medical evacuation (MEDEVAC) team, including pilots, a flight medic, and critical care nurses in the air.
• Medical Facility (10-20+ professionals): Trauma surgeons, anesthesiologists, surgical technicians, and intensive care nurses stabilize the soldier.
• Long-Term Care (3 primary professionals): The U.S. Army uses a "Triad of Care" consisting of a primary care manager, a nurse case manager, and a squad leader to coordinate complex recoveries.

 

[ElevenBravo]

How does kinetic energy kill? An fmj and an expanding bullet of the same mass and velocity have the same energy. Do they both kill as 'ethically'?

Throw a FMJ and a hollow point at me as hard as you can. Which one is going to kill?

 

[AckleyHunter]

Like I said earlier, im not a devout convert yet. I need to kill more stuff myself with one before I'll risk an elk hunt strapped to a .22 caliber rifle. I might well do it one day though.

I was exactly were all the naysayers were about two years. It was a exo mountian podcast were they were going to switch to a 6 creed. I repeated all the same hackneyed tropes about energy and penetration without ever having first hand experience to justify them.

Having killed many deer with a 7mm-08, I thought to myself, 'why wouldn't this bullet make the same wound on a bigger animal?' The wound made was surely enough to kill an elk. Then I went down the elk are big and tough! line of thinking. After killing our 6th elk, I measure all the ribs and scapula and realized they are taller and heavier, but not wider.

So, I built a 6 arc with 109 eldms loaded to bolt gun pressures (2800fps mv) and nervously went up the mountian. Three dead elk was a large enough data set. Two of which were shot quartering torward through the 'super tough and bullet stopping' front shoulder.

Seeing was believing. It works. You don't have to choose a small caliber. I like having choices. Depending on if and where I draw a tag this year I might take the arc, maybe the norma, maybe my new 375 h&h. Maybe it will be time to dust off my ackely. But the one thing I know, I am going to be sure I am confident I will hit them in the lungs before that trigger breaks.

 

[pilar]

We have a different opinion on the meaning of this word.

No elk has a 20mm thick scapula, period.

I’m in the opinion that you are wrong.
Breakdown of Scapula Thickness

• The "Paddle" (Blade): \(1/4) to \3/4) inches. This area is often described by hunters as being similar to thick cardboard, making it thin enough for standard hunting bullets to pass through.
• The Spine (Ridge): \(1\) to \(2\frac{1}{2}\) inches. This is the dense, raised ridge in the center of the shoulder blade, which provides structural support for the elk's large frame and can act as a formidable barrier.
• Total Frontal Shoulder Thickness: While the bone itself is the primary barrier, the combined thickness of the heavy hide, thick muscles, and the scapula joint can be well over \(2\) inches thick.

22mm =0.866 in

 

[AckleyHunter]

Here is me, making all the same arguements as the naysayers in 2023.

Rifle Elk Caliber and Bullet Choice for 2023

1974 Rem 700 30-06 AB 165 NM - 19 elk. CA - 1 elk. Or I could go old school...1965 Win. 30-30 MT - 2 elk.

www.hunttalk.com

 

[AckleyHunter]

I’m in the opinion that you are wrong.
Breakdown of Scapula Thickness

• The "Paddle" (Blade): \(\frac{1}{4}\) to \(\frac{3}{4}\) inches. This area is often described by hunters as being similar to thick cardboard, making it thin enough for standard hunting bullets to pass through.
• The Spine (Ridge): \(1\) to \(2\frac{1}{2}\) inches. This is the dense, raised ridge in the center of the shoulder blade, which provides structural support for the elk's large frame and can act as a formidable barrier.
• Total Frontal Shoulder Thickness: While the bone itself is the primary barrier, the combined thickness of the heavy hide, thick muscles, and the scapula joint can be well over \(2\) inches thick.

Please post some more 'facts'.

 

[Tbitty]

@AckleyHunter
This is the part people are saying is 20mm thick

 

[dchum]

I’m in the opinion that you are wrong.
Breakdown of Scapula Thickness

• The "Paddle" (Blade): \(1/4) to \3/4) inches. This area is often described by hunters as being similar to thick cardboard, making it thin enough for standard hunting bullets to pass through.
• The Spine (Ridge): \(1\) to \(2\frac{1}{2}\) inches. This is the dense, raised ridge in the center of the shoulder blade, which provides structural support for the elk's large frame and can act as a formidable barrier.
• Total Frontal Shoulder Thickness: While the bone itself is the primary barrier, the combined thickness of the heavy hide, thick muscles, and the scapula joint can be well over \(2\) inches thick.

22mm =0.866 in

You keep posting AI copy and paste, you have nothing to add. Please stop

 

[pilar]

Please post some more 'facts'.
View attachment 765210

Fwiw, I don’t care what you or anyone hunts with.
Your argument is the old FAFO version, it’ll work till it doesn’t.

 

[AckleyHunter]

View attachment 765212
@AckleyHunter
This is the part people are saying is 20mm thick

Every post says "flat part" or "blade" but that part is also not .886 inches thick and his post claims the ridge is 2 inches thick. It is not much ticker, maybe 2 mms, than a white tail deer. Also, see preivous picture of 6mm bullet smashing that ridge to pieces where it connects to the humerus.

An elk being 15 inches wide and a deer 12, that means each side is only 1.5 inches wider. Most of that difference is between the ribs. But for sake of arguement, lets assume it is all front shoulder. Do you really believe 1.5 inches of muscle and bone is a make or break point? A bone you can see through when held up to the light?

I will be sure to take some pictures with calipers next time.

Point is, if you are relying on google, you have no real world knowledge and an uninformed, and often missinformed opinion. That is why I post pictures.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Your argument is the old FAFO version, it’ll work till it doesn’t.

300 win mag works everytime?

 

[ElevenBravo]

300 win mag works everytime?

more often than a 22CM

 

[AckleyHunter]

Throw a FMJ and a hollow point at me as hard as you can. Which one is going to kill?

Maybe both, maybe neither. Your arguement was for 'ethical'. If you were facing death by firing squad, which would you want to be shot with?