22 or 6.5 Creedmore for Moose and Elk?

[AckleyHunter]

more often than a 22CM

Any evidence of that?

 

[pilar]

Any evidence of that?

There is a 20,000 post on this on a different platform
So

 

[AckleyHunter]

There is a 20,000 post on this on a different platform
So

I will take that as a no.

You have to shoot the elk 3 times with a 300 WM, man elk are tough.

You have to shoot the elk 3 times with a creedmoor, you should have used a bigger gun.

Lessons in conformation bias.

 

[dlmac]

Ok, I will be the Debbie Downer. Is this just click bait? I see threads that make no real sense, might have written a couple myself. Are these just for a bigger reaction score to move up the named rating system? What sunglasses do you wear, what watch do you wear....you get the idea. Just curious about what motivates people. You can send the flame....just no nukes....I am a pacifist

 

[Choupique]

I knew this would be a fun one.

 

[Parkerpusher]

Checking back in on this thread is kinda like hiding behind the curtains watching my neighbors fighting in the driveway. I know I should stop looking but there’s no adult at home to make me

 

[Wooster]

We have a different opinion on the meaning of this word.

No elk has a 20mm thick scapula, period.

Scapular spine, period.

"Even in your picture chosen to promote your view you can see the stark difference. The scapula of an elk is not simply a scaled-up version of a white-tailed deer scapula; it is substantially thicker, denser, and more mechanically reinforced throughout the blade and especially along the scapular spine. Unless you are such a marksman, and professor of anatomy, that you can place your shot to avoid the scapular spine, you have to consider the spine as a potential landing zone for your shot. And, yes, the spine can be up to 20 mm thick. As far as the blade goes, in white-tailed deer, the scapular blade is relatively thin and lightweight, with delicate cortical walls. In contrast, elk scapulae have markedly thicker cortical bone and broader cross-sectional geometry. Cortical density is critical because compact bone provides the stiffness and load-bearing capacity necessary to support the elk’s much greater body mass and muscular force production. Although the chemical composition of bone is similar between species, the elk’s thicker and less porous cortical structure dramatically increases mechanical strength, making the scapula far more resistant to deformation, fatigue, and fracture."

In fact, the central blade portion can measure much more than 6mm in thickness depending on age and location on the blade. In contrast, the scapular spine is dramatically more robust, commonly reaching 20–60 mm in thickness in mature bulls, particularly near the neck and proximal attachment regions where major musculature anchors to the bone. The glenoid neck and articular region are likewise heavily reinforced, often exceeding 40–70 mm in cross-sectional thickness.

 

[Choupique]

Even if that ridge is 20mm+ thick, and even if i did hit it perfectly square, I don't think thats stopping any .22 cal 80 gr bullet that is going 1500+ fps. Thats still under an inch of bone. Its also going to add a lot of shrapnel in the chest cavity.

 

[dchum]

Even if that ridge is 20mm+ thick, and even if i did hit it perfectly square, I don't think thats stopping any .22 cal 80 gr bullet that is going 1500+ fps. Thats still under an inch of bone. Its also going to add a lot of shrapnel in the chest cavity.

Exactly, scapulas don’t stop bullets. They just don’t.

If you think your projectile bounced of a scapula… you are mistaken.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Ok, I will be the Debbie Downer. Is this just click bait? I see threads that make no real sense, might have written a couple myself. Are these just for a bigger reaction score to move up the named rating system? What sunglasses do you wear, what watch do you wear....you get the idea. Just curious about what motivates people. You can send the flame....just no nukes....I am a pacifist

It may have started as click bait, you have to ask the OP. However, he asked for peoples experience using small calibers on big game. Everybody who has posted actual experience says it works. Everybody who refuses to even entertain the idea says it is foolish.

There is a mixing of the old way and the new way. People will defend their stance, usually reflexively. The good thing is there is more than one right way. I just want people to have informed opinions instead of a litnay of adages from the book of fudd.

 

[farmer_john]

I think the issue is theres no consesus in deffintions.
100-200m
200-300
300-500
500+meter

I think i think the answers would be varied depending on the distance discussed.

I think the issue is partly the hype causing marginally skilled or low skilled shooters to take shots at distances they shouldnt.

It can be a good caliber at the shorter end of the spectrum personally would not take it for farther distances

 

[AckleyHunter]

Scapular spine, period.

"Even in your picture chosen to promote your view you can see the stark difference. The scapula of an elk is not simply a scaled-up version of a white-tailed deer scapula; it is substantially thicker, denser, and more mechanically reinforced throughout the blade and especially along the scapular spine. Unless you are such a marksman, and professor of anatomy, that you can place your shot to avoid the scapular spine, you have to consider the spine as a potential landing zone for your shot. And, yes, the spine can be up to 20 mm thick. As far as the blade goes, in white-tailed deer, the scapular blade is relatively thin and lightweight, with delicate cortical walls. In contrast, elk scapulae have markedly thicker cortical bone and broader cross-sectional geometry. Cortical density is critical because compact bone provides the stiffness and load-bearing capacity necessary to support the elk’s much greater body mass and muscular force production. Although the chemical composition of bone is similar between species, the elk’s thicker and less porous cortical structure dramatically increases mechanical strength, making the scapula far more resistant to deformation, fatigue, and fracture."

In fact, the central blade portion can measure much more than 6mm in thickness depending on age and location on the blade. In contrast, the scapular spine is dramatically more robust, commonly reaching 20–60 mm in thickness in mature bulls, particularly near the neck and proximal attachment regions where major musculature anchors to the bone. The glenoid neck and articular region are likewise heavily reinforced, often exceeding 40–70 mm in cross-sectional thickness.

The ridge holds on the infraspinatus. The infraspinatus is what you buy as a flat iron steak. Go to your local grocery store and find me a 60 mm thick flat iron steak. Take your calipers and a camera. And when you can't, come back here and tell me elk are bigger than moo cows.

We are doomed when even fudds trust google/AI over actual pictures.

 

[Robmill70]

If my choice is only between those 2 choices, 6.5CM. I’ve taken some big animals with my 6.5x55, but I still recommend a 300WM on Elk and Moose. I’m hunting moose next year and I’m using my 300HH.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Exactly, scapulas don’t stop bullets. They just don’t.

If you think your projectile bounced of a scapula… you are mistaken.

This is what happens to the ridge when a 6mm eldm hits it.

 

[AckleyHunter]

I think the issue is theres no consesus in deffintions.
100-200m
200-300
300-500
500+meter

I think i think the answers would be varied depending on the distance discussed.

I think the issue is partly the hype causing marginally skilled or low skilled shooters to take shots at distances they shouldnt.

It can be a good caliber at the shorter end of the spectrum personally would not take it for farther distances

Based on my experiences at the range, most people shouldn't shoot more than 100 yards at things that bleed.

A practiced and skilled shooter with a high bc bullet can stretch that to 400 yrds.

Beyond 400 yrds wind is just too much of a variable. Be a better hunter and get closer.

If all your shots are within 400 yrds, there isn't going to be that big of a difference in terminal preformance because velocities will still be over 2000 fps for most cartridges/projectiles.

 

[farmer_john]

Based on my experiences at the range, most people shouldn't shoot more than 100 yards at things that bleed.

A practiced and skilled shooter with a high bc bullet can stretch that to 400 yrds.

Beyond 400 yrds wind is just too much of a variable. Be a better hunter and get closer.

If all your shots are within 400 yrds, there isn't going to be that big of a difference in terminal preformance because velocities will still be over 2000 fps for most cartridges/projectiles.

Wind is really not that much of a variable. And easily compensated for.
Alot of hunters are not set up for/or practice that tho.

But that aside. I agree I enjoy a good stalk and getting in close ish.

 

[ElevenBravo]

Maybe both, maybe neither. Your arguement was for 'ethical'. If you were facing death by firing squad, which would you want to be shot with?

you asked what kinetic energy had to do with it.

 

[ElevenBravo]

Any evidence of that?

Best Caliber for Elk Hunting | Western Obsessions

The no-BS guide to choosing the right elk hunting caliber. .300 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, and more — with real-world recommendations.

westernobsessionstv.com

The only mention of "Creedmoor" is attached to 6.5, which even these guys are saying it's not their choice pick. No mention of 22CM

State requiring calibers > .22:
Colorado
Washington
Oregon
Wyoming
Idaho
so at the very least, the number of elk taken is these states by 22CM is going to be 0.

 

[ElevenBravo]

Based on my experiences at the range, most people shouldn't shoot more than 100 yards at things that bleed.

A practiced and skilled shooter with a high bc bullet can stretch that to 400 yrds.

Beyond 400 yrds wind is just too much of a variable. Be a better hunter and get closer.

If all your shots are within 400 yrds, there isn't going to be that big of a difference in terminal preformance because velocities will still be over 2000 fps for most cartridges/projectiles.

so why not go for a bigger, heavier bullet?

 

[Wooster]

The ridge holds on the infraspinatus. The infraspinatus is what you buy as a flat iron steak. Go to your local grocery store and find me a 60 mm thick flat iron steak. Take your calipers and a camera. And when you can't, come back here and tell me elk are bigger than moo cows.

We are doomed when even fudds trust google/AI over actual pictures.

Cue the 'fudds' line of pejoratives. lol. Yawn.