22 or 6.5 Creedmore for Moose and Elk?

One Day... said:
Elk may not be much wider than deer (?) but all the ones I killed had much thicker bones...
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AckleyHunter said:
No, they didn't.
Click to expand...

And this is where generally things go sideways...

In their eagerness to make their point (in this case, shooting elk with 6mm ARC), folks start arguing with reality...

In this case, the arguing is that the bones of a 600 to 1,000 lbs. elk are not thicker and stronger than the bones of a 100 to 200 lbs. deer...

Really?
 
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One Day... said:
And this is where generally things go sideways...

In their eagerness to make their point (in this case, shooting elk with 6mm ARC), folks start arguing with reality...

In this case, the arguing is that the bones of a 600 to 1,000 lbs. elk are not thicker and stronger than the bones of a 100 to 200 lbs. deer...

Really?
Click to expand...
Yes really.

An elk scapula is not constructed tougher or thicker than a deer scapula.

Compare them for yourself. Pretty interesting.

I guess would be surprising to you.
 
My opinionon is, and it is just that, the 6.5 Creed and most all the other ones in that class make fine long range Ground Hog and varmint cartridges and can kill a deer or what ever. But I am a meat hunter and like fairly large caliber rifles with heavy for caliber bullets. I like to be able to eat up to the bullet hole with as little blood shot meat as possible. Just my 9.3mm's worth. :) If its the last day of a big game hunt and I have a difficult shot to make, I want all the gun that I can handle and the bullet to go through sides.

Paul
 
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Nope and nope lile Craig Bodding said once you hsve to shoot the gun big enough for the game .I am on the 338 win mag boat for elk and moose .I cant believe how recoil senative males are today cracks me up .I do have my limit to shoot very good and its 416 rem mag which I have shot 125 times in a day .The 338 win mag is totally made for elk and moose .I loaned my best friend Loyd my 338 win mag in Alaaka he took 7 moose with 7 shots all dead in their tracks with speer 250 grain grand slam bullers from 15 to 350 yards .I Ended up buying a 338-378 weatherby for Alaska which added 250 yards to the 338 ein mags range .A 65 pound boy 12 years opd shot two caribou with one shot with my 338-378 weatherby .My friend with the 338 win msg shot a charging grizxly only 7.5 foot took 7 shots with the same load so think about that with those small guns .A friend who guides in Alaska guided a guy who had a fit to shoot a moose with 6.5 cm .He shot it 10 times for two hours finally shootimg it in the head .My friend that guides refuses to tske anyone with less than a 3006 and prefers 338 win mag a zillion times more than smaller calibers.Elk and moose are tough big animsls use a big enough gun .I cant wait to see how many people get mauled by bears in Alaska using 6.5 cm .Its like people carring 10 mm pistols for grizzleys and shooting bears 26 times and almost getting eaten .Read Alaska bear tales you will leave those little guns at home .
 
Sadly the youth of today and I am generalising..some decent kids ...but on the whole they are experts decide they don't want recoil and creedmoor won ...my ex GF reckoned 30.06 was borderline learned to shoot a 9.3 and dropped some Elk .....her guide a man twice her age and change ...said he was impressed ....As said the marketing is amazing ...I would use and have used 6.5x55 and 54ms on quite large animals but only after 1000 in the fridge and knowing exactly what I was doing ....anyhow enough of my rant ......
 
dgr416 said:
Nope and nope lile Craig Bodding said once you hsve to shoot the gun big enough for the game .I am on the 338 win mag boat for elk and moose .I cant believe how recoil senative males are today cracks me up .I do have my limit to shoot very good and its 416 rem mag which I have shot 125 times in a day .The 338 win mag is totally made for elk and moose .I loaned my best friend Loyd my 338 win mag in Alaaka he took 7 moose with 7 shots all dead in their tracks with speer 250 grain grand slam bullers from 15 to 350 yards .I Ended up buying a 338-378 weatherby for Alaska which added 250 yards to the 338 ein mags range .A 65 pound boy 12 years opd shot two caribou with one shot with my 338-378 weatherby .My friend with the 338 win msg shot a charging grizxly only 7.5 foot took 7 shots with the same load so think about that with those small guns .A friend who guides in Alaska guided a guy who had a fit to shoot a moose with 6.5 cm .He shot it 10 times for two hours finally shootimg it in the head .My friend that guides refuses to tske anyone with less than a 3006 and prefers 338 win mag a zillion times more than smaller calibers.Elk and moose are tough big animsls use a big enough gun .I cant wait to see how many people get mauled by bears in Alaska using 6.5 cm .Its like people carring 10 mm pistols for grizzleys and shooting bears 26 times and almost getting eaten .Read Alaska bear tales you will leave those little guns at home .
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Absolutely agree. There is also no such thing as over kill or to much gun in my book. Just my 9.3mm's worth. :)

Paul
 
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Speaking from personal experience I would absolutely take an elk with my 6.5cm. I can not speak for the 22cm because I have not used it yet. Do I believe the 6.5cm is the perfect elk rifle, absolutely not! But with a good bullet, good shot angle, and moderate range I would not hesitate to take the opportunity. Elk are tough no doubt but they absolutely are not bullet proof. A smaller quality bullet in the boiler room will always garner more success than a poorly placed 308 or 338 bullet.

Speaking to some of the other things mentioned like 308 being too much recoil, this is absolutely a real issue. There are many folks out there like new shooters or those of us with severe shoulder injuries who truly do struggle to PROPERLY tame those rifles. My wife is an excellent example, she didn't get into hunting or shooting until she met me in her mid 20s. I started her on my 223 bolt gun then upped her to a 308 because it was what I had. Almost immediately she developed a flinch, adding a muzzle brake created even more issue due to the increased noise making her jump. I dropped her to a 6.5cm and it was like the stars aligned! She went from not being able to connect at 150 yards to being lethal at 400 confidently.

I know many guys think smaller cartridges aren't good for more than coyotes like yourself but I can absolutely attest to their lethality on larger game. The 6.5cm is my go to for anything smaller than a mule deer. It has replaced the 243 in recent years. The 6mm ARC has also become a favorite of mine for the same role. I know folks who regularly take elk with the 6.5cm, 25-06, and 257 Roberts. My dad and grandfather have both taken bull elk with the 243 while deer hunting in the past as well.
 
Wyit76 said:
Speaking from personal experience I would absolutely take an elk with my 6.5cm. I can not speak for the 22cm because I have not used it yet. Do I believe the 6.5cm is the perfect elk rifle, absolutely not! But with a good bullet, good shot angle, and moderate range I would not hesitate to take the opportunity. Elk are tough no doubt but they absolutely are not bullet proof. A smaller quality bullet in the boiler room will always garner more success than a poorly placed 308 or 338 bullet.

Speaking to some of the other things mentioned like 308 being too much recoil, this is absolutely a real issue. There are many folks out there like new shooters or those of us with severe shoulder injuries who truly do struggle to PROPERLY tame those rifles. My wife is an excellent example, she didn't get into hunting or shooting until she met me in her mid 20s. I started her on my 223 bolt gun then upped her to a 308 because it was what I had. Almost immediately she developed a flinch, adding a muzzle brake created even more issue due to the increased noise making her jump. I dropped her to a 6.5cm and it was like the stars aligned! She went from not being able to connect at 150 yards to being lethal at 400 confidently.

I know many guys think smaller cartridges aren't good for more than coyotes like yourself but I can absolutely attest to their lethality on larger game. The 6.5cm is my go to for anything smaller than a mule deer. It has replaced the 243 in recent years. The 6mm ARC has also become a favorite of mine for the same role. I know folks who regularly take elk with the 6.5cm, 25-06, and 257 Roberts. My dad and grandfather have both taken bull elk with the 243 while deer hunting in the past as well.
Click to expand...
The problem with the smaller calibers such as the 6.5 and the others that you listed can also leade to wounded lost elk very easily.

I had a coworker who knew absolutely nothing about hunting and he had a 14 year old boy who wanted to go elk hunting. So off they went to the local sporting goods dealer to find a rifle.

Once there and after telling the salesman what they wanted a rifle for he proceeded to sell them a . 243 bolt action.

Now I have no doubt that a 243 will kill a elk, but in the hands of that 14 year old I would highly doubt it, but he may wound a few.
 
People see people on youtube shoot elk with 6.5 cm with match bullets at 700 yards and think they can do it .My 338 win mag with a boss system and only weighs 6.75 pounds kicks like a 270 win .We will see on chukesoutfoors whos first to be eaten by a griz or stopped by a moose with 6.5 cm .Yes elephants were killed with 6.5 mannlicher by Bell but its not something you should do .I lost a 250 pound BC whitetail with a 260 rem with 155 gr megatip bullets that are made for swedish moose only 35 yards away good shot but the wonderful savage model 10 totally jammed would not bolt anothet round now I trust neither savage bolt guns or the 260 for big bucks .Its fine on up to 150 pound deer but I parked that gun for good because of that hunt .
 
I remember when the 17 Remington first come out and some of the gun magazine writers shot everything from hogs to elk with it and rant and raved about how they dropped like being struck lightning. Oops, i'm dating myself again. :LOL:

Paul
 
AckleyHunter said:
I hope one day you can shoot an elk in real life and don't have to depend on google, which gave you zero info on thickness.

Seeing is believing. I used to think like you, but then I tried it for myself. Elk are not giant bullet proof monsters.
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I have not shot an elk, but I have help clean a few. You are just plain wrong about their rib size being the same as deer. Both are relatively thin, but when you're talking about small sizes (let's just say 3/8" vs 1/2") thats not "the same." Is a .25-06 the same as a .30-06? Or .270? ... maybe we are talking past each other with semantics of "the same" vs "similar."

I agree elk are not overly tough or giant bullet proof monsters. Most of the same firearms that should be used for deer are just as capable to take down an elk. However, elk tend to be shot at longer distances, and in places where tracking can be absolutely brutal. Both of these variables should encourage a shooter to skip some of the smaller caliber options.

I wont further comment on the topic of rib/bone, as it's off topic from OP's question.
 
Only the most experienced hunters would (or should) use a .22 caliber, and most of them are smart enough not to.

A 6.5 will do the job, but is, in NO WAY, the best cartridge for elk or moose.


My son is a believer in the RS (website) line of thinking about a tiny cartridge with low recoil and a bullet with the proper construction. This caused him the loss of a large black bear that he shot twice at close range with a 6.5 Grendel. (He didn't learn a thing, and now uses a 6mm ARC to try to accomplish better results)

The scene at the shot looked like the crime scene of an axe murderer with all the blood. We followed blood down a mountain, assuming that we would find the bear dead near a creek at the bottom.

The blood went down to the creek, but started up another mountain until there was no more blood. I even went back a few days later to look for vultures and sniff the air downwind, but nothing.

IMO, if you can't handle a .30/06, you really shouldn't be hunting big game. (elk/moose sized animals)

(I got a .30/06 for Christmas when I was 12 years old. Yeah, it kicked, but I learned to "roll with the punches")
 
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Scapula Comparison

FeatureWhite-tailed DeerElk
Blade thickness (main flat portion)Typically 2–5 mmCommonly 6–20+ mm
Thickest areas (spine/neck)Usually 8–15 mmOften 25–60 mm in mature bulls
Relative cortical densityLightVery dense
Edge robustnessThin, knife-likeBlunt and heavy
Weight feelLight, almost fragileDense and “board-like”
 
Measurement / FeatureWhite-tailed Deer (Odocoileus virginianus)Elk / Wapiti (Cervus canadensis)
Typical scapula length142–225 mm (5.6–8.9 in) (boneidentification.com)290–392 mm (11.4–15.4 in) (boneidentification.com)
Average scapula length~175 mm (6.9 in) (The Fossil Forum)~245–340 mm depending on sex/age (The Fossil Forum)
Relative size difference—Usually 1.7–2× longer and much heavier
ShapeNarrow, triangular, thinBroader, thicker, more robust
Spine thicknessLight ridgeHeavy ridge with pronounced muscle attachment
Glenoid cavity (joint socket)Small and roundedMuch larger and deeper
Bone thicknessGenerally thinCan range from ¼ in to 2½ in thick in mature elk (app.fw.ky.gov)
Typical adult animal shoulder height32–40 in48–60+ in (Dimensions)
 
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