22 or 6.5 Creedmore for Moose and Elk?

[JG26Irish_2]

I can't believe we are even discussing using wounding size calibers for elk size game.

When I show up at our local ELR range I see that about 90% of the shooters are using the 6.5CM or the 6CM. It is a great little accurate round. They get really good at smacking steel at 700, 800 and longer ranges. But, that is also why I started this thread. A young hunter/marksman was touting the 6.5CM as the perfect Elk hunting cartridge. I had to call BS. Just because you can hit an Elk with it at 500y does not mean you should be trying. And that goes for a lot of cartridges that are marginal for big game.

With a precise shot they all work. But hunting is by definition not a perfectly controlled sport. The uncertainty is part of the appeal. But, as an ethical hunter, we owe it to the animal to use enough gun to insure a quick kill even if the angle is not perfect or the shot not quite exactly where we wanted it.

I see a ton of young would be hunters who have killed a few deer with their 6CM who think that it is the be-all end-all. Some one asked if I would hunt Elk with a 7mm/08? It is about the same ballistically to the CM and I have hunted African PG successfully with the 7/08. Wildebeest, Springbok, Blesbok, etc. It worked OK. But, I would still not use it on Elk. I have better choices and so do you.

 

[ElevenBravo]

But hunting is by definition not a perfectly controlled sport. The uncertainty is part of the appeal. But, as an ethical hunter, we owe it to the animal to use enough gun to insure a quick kill even if the angle is not perfect or the shot not quite exactly where we wanted it.

Chuck Norris does not go hunting. Hunting implies a chance of failure. Chuck goes killing.

 

[MS 9x56]

Chuck Norris does not go hunting. Hunting implies a chance of failure. Chuck goes killing.

Sadly not anymore.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Just because you can hit an Elk with it at 500y does not mean you should be trying.

Almost nobody should be shooting at any animal at 500 yards. Everybody claims they have a .5 moa rifle and can read wind to a 2 mph error. In practice this is 1:1000 shooters, and probably nobody on the planet can read wind within a 2 mph margin. If you talk to elk guides, the number one reason people fail to harvest an elk is they miss. Most report somewhere between 30-40% first round hit rate.

Also, shooting an elk with a 6.5 creedmoor at 500 yards shows a fundemental miss understanding of how bullets kill animals. Yes, you maybe able to hit the elk, but at 500 yards it is just at 2000 fps. The slower the bullet is going the less upset there will be and less tissue damage. 2000 fps should be a hard floor for jacketed lead bullets and 2200 for monometal and bonded bullets. This is especially important when shooting smaller diameter projectiles. They work because their upset produces football shaped wounds. This only happens if there is enough velocity.

Here is a good podcast on long range hunting, why your groups are too small, and why your max range is probably much closer than you think.

The Truth About Long-Range Hunting Ft @Backfire Ep.454

Podcast Episode · Ron Spomer Outdoors · November 20, 2025 · 59m

podcasts.apple.com

 

[AckleyHunter]

A 308 is too much recoil

Not trying to call you out specifically, but this is a misunderstanding of the arguement.

It isn't that bigger cartridges have too much recoil or can't be shot accurately, it is that everybody shoots lighter recoiling rifles better than heavy ones.

Given the reason why many people fail in harvesting an animal is they make bad shots, a lighter recoiling rifle affords you the chance to A. spot your imapcts so you get immediated feedback on your shot and B. the chance to put more rounds down range to become a better shooter. Nobody wants to shoot 300 round sessions with a 300 win mag. It will hit your wallet just as hard as your shoulder.

You can alway shoot the small rifle at the range and take a bigger one in the field if you so choose, but spent primers are the best teacher. But then you have people thinking of recoil rather than shooting fundementals and we are back at square one.

 

[WoodencrossIII]

Truly if they legalize a caliber or cartridge it will work, any of them will work with proper bullets and well placed shots irregardless of all the knowledge we have a bullet in the heart or lungs of an elk or deer makes them die so yep a 22 creedmoor will totally kill elk the 22-250 has been used and it works just place them shots well

 

[AckleyHunter]

I'll never understand

Agian, not trying to pick on anybody, but many people lead with this phrase.

In order to understand something, you need to be willing and able to assimilate new information.

 

[AckleyHunter]

My son is a believer in the RS (website) line of thinking about a tiny cartridge with low recoil and a bullet with the proper construction. This caused him the loss of a large black bear that he shot twice at close range with a 6.5 Grendel.

Everybody has this story about the one time A. I should have used a bigger gun B. The bullet blew up on the shoulder C. The bullet passed through without opening up.

Nobody has a story about the time they made a bad shot. Without finding the animal, all you can do is speculate and we are inclined to blame ourselves last.

Acecdotes about failures and why they MIGHT have happened due little to disprove a thread with over 13,000 pages of photographed and documented success.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Scapula Comparison

Feature	White-tailed Deer	Elk
Blade thickness (main flat portion)	Typically 2–5 mm	Commonly 6–20+ mm
Thickest areas (spine/neck)	Usually 8–15 mm	Often 25–60 mm in mature bulls
Relative cortical density	Light	Very dense
Edge robustness	Thin, knife-like	Blunt and heavy
Weight feel	Light, almost fragile	Dense and “board-like”

I would like to see a picture of a 20 mm thick elk scapula . Even 6mm is very unlikely.

 

[ElevenBravo]

Truly if they legalize a caliber or cartridge it will work, any of them will work with proper bullets and well placed shots irregardless of all the knowledge we have a bullet in the heart or lungs of an elk or deer makes them die so yep a 22 creedmoor will totally kill elk the 22-250 has been used and it works just place them shots well

That phrase is doing a lot of heavy lifting, and it's a lazy justification.

There's a reason there is a minimum caliber for taking game in many states. Sure, a .22LR right in the ear hole (we call it Q-tipping) will kill, but requires a level of precision and consistency that most shooters don't have. I have a rancher buddy in Texas that runs a hog hunting operation and I've had to spend considerable amount of time chasing down hogs that had their jaws blown off because someone saw "American Sniper" too many times and thought they had skills too.

And more importantly, shooting a deer or elk in the heart with a small caliber does not produce good chance of a quick kill. And frankly, I'm not particularly impressed that someone killed a deer with a 22-250. You get a larger window for error using more appropriate calibers.

In the words of Dr. Ian Malcom in Jurassic Park, "you were so concerned about if you could, you didn't stop to think if you should".

 

[pilar]

I would like to see a picture of a 20 mm thick elk scapula . Even 6mm is very unlikely.View attachment 765067

I have zero idea how many MM thick these are , but a 130gr Barnes ttsx .308win punched a hole through both, I was aoudad hunting when we saw her , I don’t know if Texas elk are smaller than other states? I think medium size game starts with.270
I don’t agree with the other web site that has literally thousands and thousands of post arguing that a 223 is proper elk , bear , moose medicine.

 

[AckleyHunter]

The round is capable but due to the smaller diameter your margine for error is reduced.

People says things like this all the time, but provide little to no evidence to substantiate it. While it seems logical, reality is that wounding from bullets is almost entirely due to bullet construction and impact velocity. Larger diameter and heavier bullets do not make wounds that are bigger around, just longer. i.e. they penetrate more.

Here is a video showing how a 6 creed and 223 make bigger wound chanels than a 50 bmg. If your bullet is too big and tough, the path of least resistance is to push through and not upset, the media it is going through can only push back so hard and is going to be the same regardless of caliber.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

And more importantly, shooting a deer or elk in the heart with a small caliber does not produce good chance of a quick kill. And frankly, I'm not particularly impressed that someone killed a deer with a 22-250. You get a larger window for error using more appropriate calibers.

In the words of Dr. Ian Malcom in Jurassic Park, "you were so concerned about if you could, you didn't stop to think if you should".

Quote of the day

 

[AckleyHunter]

Additional evidence of wound chanel diameter v bullet diameter.

375 h&h with a barnes tsx, max diameter 1.61 inches:

25 creedmoor with eldm, max diameter 1.8 inches:

22 creedmoor with eldx, max diameter 1.73 inches:

 

[AckleyHunter]

I don’t agree with the other web site

The great thing is you don't have too. I also would not hunt with a 223. But we do a diservice to others when we say and believe things that are fundementally untrue and then use those things to malign people who choose a differnet way.

 

[AckleyHunter]

That phrase is doing a lot of heavy lifting, and it's a lazy justification

Shot placement is always king. Shooting an animal in the guts with a 300 win mag will not kill it quickly or in any way better than a 6mm through the lungs.

No animal that walks the planet will live long with a wound caused by bullet upset in both lungs.

 

[dchum]

Ah, the 6.5 Needsmore. Built one for the wife, she also built an AR-10 in the same caliber. She shot a Texas hog with the AR-10. Good shot, definitely in the lungs as it was leaving bits and pieces. Tracked it about 30 yards where it was waiting to die. Took too long, so I shot it in the heart with a 500 S&W. It got up and charged me. I will admit in this case, that hog tanked a 500 S&W to the heart at 10 yards, so it's not entirely the round's fault.

She also shot an Axis deer at 227 yards. Heard the smack, deer ran off. The guide and I spent 8 hours trying to find it. At about 2 in the morning we found it with the rest of the herd. After we put a proper bullet in it, found that the 143gr bullet from hers hit the shoulder bone, deflected, and sort of went aft just under the skin. The lower guts were kind of pulped but it was dying slowly. If anything I was more glad that we put the deer out of any pain it was in.

Two animals in a row with a 6.5....definitely not impressed with the knockdown power. Admittedly, Axis is a bit more heavily built than a whitetail, but not as big as an elk. Wouldn't use it.

It's a nice soft-shooting and accurate round, though. The Mrs. can hit a target at 1000 yards with it, but she's also shooting my 300 PRC at 700.

A 147 gr bullet bounced off the shoulder bone of an axis deer?

To me that just is not reality. When I hear shots like that it seems people are just confused when examining the wound.

Sounds like it was slightly quartered toward and she shot it low and not centered enough and went into the guts.

 

[ElevenBravo]

Additional evidence of wound chanel diameter v bullet diameter.

375 h&h with a barnes tsx, max diameter 1.61 inches:
View attachment 765071
25 creedmoor with eldm, max diameter 1.8 inches:
View attachment 765072

22 creedmoor with eldx, max diameter 1.73 inches:

View attachment 765073

That's not really an apples-to-apples comparison. TSX in a big slow gun vs a match bullet from smaller, zippier calibers? The H&H has over twice the penetration at a velocity that is barely above that is currently accepted as the minimum for expansion for a Barnes bullet. Your smaller bullets can expand all they want, but if they aren't reaching the vitals, it's "just a flesh wound" in the words of the Black Knight. Those lighter bullets also have a sizeable chance of deflecting or flattening off of solid bone.

I've pulled many a .223 out of a Texas hog's shield, fired by people who believe that since the military uses it to kill humans, it must be good for hogs too.

 

[ElevenBravo]

A 147 gr bullet bounced off the shoulder bone of an axis deer?

To me that just is not reality. When I hear shots like that it seems people are just confused when examining the wound.

Sounds like it was slightly quartered toward and she shot it low and not centered enough and went into the guts.

That's exactly what it did. When we skinned it, we could see damage to the scapula and a wound channel that ran down underneath the hide from the shoulder and into the abdomen.

 

[ElevenBravo]

Shot placement is always king. Shooting an animal in the guts with a 300 win mag will not kill it quickly or in any way better than a 6mm through the lungs.

No animal that walks the planet will live long with a wound caused by bullet upset in both lungs.

but it's also not the only contributing factor. Rule #1 of a gunfight: bring enough gun. You need a caliber with enough ass to make it to those lungs and do enough damage so that your *target dies quickly*.

Shoot it with a .308, tell everyone at the gun store you did it with a .223.