My Take on Dangerous Game Scopes

@Philip Glass you always have good insights, but I would say your DG scope preferences are on the opposite extreme of the fellow that likes a 1-4x30mm. A 13x DG magnification, or even a 3-9x40mm is very, very large. I don’t mind differences in preferences, but the real battle of opinions comes down to the stock design and how low the rings can be in your extreme or the opposite example I gave. (I’m the middle-ground guy that likes a 1-6x24mm)

If you can’t bring the scope to your eye and instantly fire as though shooting a shotgun bead, you’ve got serious issues with your optics. A 1.7-13x set at 1.7x *might* be okay provided that you can get rings low enough or a stock comb high enough that it is instinctive and instantaneous alignment on the target. That is not super likely for the average configuration I’ve seen, more so to blame on the abhorrent modern Monte Carlo stocks designed for Medium and High rings than anything else.

I don’t dislike your opinion even though it differs from mine, but we do need to put some caveats out to the readers that may not understand how important ring height and comb height comes into play in these considerations too.
Thanks for your thoughts. I always respect your opinion even if we differ! That said, everything you say tells me you may not have really watched the video or did so without an open mind or maybe preconceived notions.
1. 13x is only large if you are stuck in the past and the tradition that is handicapping hunters especially once the buff is down and we are on to PG. (see my story in video)
2. There is no practical difference in functionality at close range between 1x and 1.7x or even 2x. So no there is no low end advantage to the 1x. I know because I have both scopes mentioned. Those who have criticized my take in this video do NOT have both (3 in video) scopes but they opine anyway. The Swaro has the option of red dot and circle dot so the target acquisition in close quarters is superior to all others without this feature. (***caveat: many hunters did not grow up shooting open sights and have a devil of a time with target acquisition. I can't help that no matter the optic/sight)
3. The Swaro I mention in 1.7-13x is a very compact scope and not materially larger than your (or mine that sits in a drawer) 1-6x. There will be virtually no difference in mounting between these scopes.
4. You will get no argument from me on rifle fit. We can both agree that having a competent gunsmith fit you to your DG rifle before you go in a DG hunt is of utmost importance!
 
@Philip Glass you always have good insights, but I would say your DG scope preferences are on the opposite extreme of the fellow that likes a 1-4x30mm. A 13x DG magnification, or even a 3-9x40mm is very, very large. I don’t mind differences in preferences, but the real battle of opinions comes down to the stock design and how low the rings can be in your extreme or the opposite example I gave. (I’m the middle-ground guy that likes a 1-6x24mm)

If you can’t bring the scope to your eye and instantly fire as though shooting a shotgun bead, you’ve got serious issues with your optics. A 1.7-13x set at 1.7x *might* be okay provided that you can get rings low enough or a stock comb high enough that it is instinctive and instantaneous alignment on the target. That is not super likely for the average configuration I’ve seen, more so to blame on the abhorrent modern Monte Carlo stocks designed for Medium and High rings than anything else.

I don’t dislike your opinion even though it differs from mine, but we do need to put some caveats out to the readers that may not understand how important ring height and comb height comes into play in these considerations too.
I like his recommendation on a 375 that might shoot DG but is still and all around rifle. The “one rifle” man.

For my 416 I still use a 1-5x.
 
I like his recommendation on a 375 that might shoot DG but is still and all around rifle. The “one rifle” man.

For my 416 I still use a 1-5x.

For a .375HH its pretty hard to top the relatively new Swarovski 1-8x with the illuminated #4 reticle that can also be a circle dot reticle. At one power in a perfectly configured set of rings, it can come up instantly for an iron-sight quick dangerous game shot. For plains game the 8x in bright conditions is beyond plenty for shots inside of 300 yards.

I use that optic on my 7x57 single shot and just love it for all scenarios, but it is better than a 1-6x for a 375HH just for the additional versatility.
 
Thank you for your insights here. For me personally I do stop at .375 currently for a scoped rifle. I am now in love with my double with the little Kahles red dot that makes it a 100yd gun. Yes I think the objective at 42mm is big enough for what I am doing. As others have mentioned, you get into mounting issues with the larger ones.
I always say know your equipment. Your scope trouble can happen to any of us with any scope. Knowing issues ahead of time will save the hunt.,
I've had great results with the Trijicon RME on all my doubles.
They have 1 MOA dot (exact same RMR's I used in 3gun optic competition for years)
Recently bought a Kahles 2 MOA Red Dot and love the bigger sight box. What dot size is yours?
Would you mind commenting on you experience with the Kahles?
I hunt DG like buffalo with a Double exclusively will on occasion have a tracker carry a bolt as backup but only used one twice as insurance finishers. Just back from Uganda where I shot 2 Grants Zebra Stallions with a Heym 450-400 out of the same herd Bang-Bang at 65 & 85 yds. Had to take off The RMR in the middle of the stalk because an Ever-Ready battery disc installed just one month prior failed.
Had 3 left in the package in camp and all were defective. Resorting to Irons in the middle of the stalk made for added pressure but in less than 30 sec both were dead on the ground. New battery (Rayovac)
from my PH and thanks to JJ's great mounts I was back in business the next morning with no adjustment necessary, JJ said he would make me a couple mounts for my new Heym 450NE (one for Kahles and one for Trijicon RMR).

Please comment on your experience with the Kahles Red Dot! And great video.
 
I've had great results with the Trijicon RME on all my doubles.
They have 1 MOA dot (exact same RMR's I used in 3gun optic competition for years)
Recently bought a Kahles 2 MOA Red Dot and love the bigger sight box. What dot size is yours?
Would you mind commenting on you experience with the Kahles?
I hunt DG like buffalo with a Double exclusively will on occasion have a tracker carry a bolt as backup but only used one twice as insurance finishers. Just back from Uganda where I shot 2 Grants Zebra Stallions with a Heym 450-400 out of the same herd Bang-Bang at 65 & 85 yds. Had to take off The RMR in the middle of the stalk because an Ever-Ready battery disc installed just one month prior failed.
Had 3 left in the package in camp and all were defective. Resorting to Irons in the middle of the stalk made for added pressure but in less than 30 sec both were dead on the ground. New battery (Rayovac)
from my PH and thanks to JJ's great mounts I was back in business the next morning with no adjustment necessary, JJ said he would make me a couple mounts for my new Heym 450NE (one for Kahles and one for Trijicon RMR).

Please comment on your experience with the Kahles Red Dot! And great video.
Always, Always, Always use Energizer Lithium batteries for hunting gear!
I believe the Kahles is 1 moa red dot. I really like it. Swaro glass and very small, neat profile. It does not detract from the beauty of the Doubke and yet makes it a 100yd gun. Too bad they are not sold in the US at the moment due to a patent issue. I am hoping it gets resolved soon.
 
Always, Always, Always use Energizer Lithium batteries for hunting gear!
I believe the Kahles is 1 moa red dot. I really like it. Swaro glass and very small, neat profile. It does not detract from the beauty of the Doubke and yet makes it a 100yd gun. Too bad they are not sold in the US at the moment due to a patent issue. I am hoping it gets resolved soon.
I second this by experience. When I was getting ready for my safari I tried harbor frieght batteries. My scopes did not seem to like them and when I changed I had no problems. HF batteries are great for home use but like thinking about cheap ammo, don’t save 2 dollars on a 5 figure trip.

The other advice I picked up to late, if you are in the US (maybe others) and don’t have tiny humans use some alcohol wipes to clean the bitter coating of the batteries. Only found out about this later than I would like but it can cause bad voltages and some batteries not work.

Not sure how many I tossed before I figured that out.
 
My take not getting into brands here based on my experience starts with what am I hunting and what will be my environment? Some examples, I would not hunt buff and elephant with a 4x scope and higher…Starting with a one if using a scope rifle would be paramount to me. So many of my DG animals have been in deep shadow even during the brightest of days…for all my bolt actions I would not buy unless they are illuminated. Last I too hope Kahles allows their red dots to be imported to the US
 
Also for my PG the larger the objective and the higher the POTENTIAL Imaging the better for me until it impacts my cheek weld. Therefore my largest PG scope objectives are no larger than 40ish given anything larger starts to lift my cheek off my weld and my imaging does not go above 12-14. Just based on my experience
 
Late to watch that video.
I just wish Phillip would pronounce it LOO-POLD instead of LEE-UH-POLD.
LOO-POLD is how the Leupold folks who make them say it.
 
Late to watch that video.
I just wish Phillip would pronounce it LOO-POLD instead of LEE-UH-POLD.
LOO-POLD is how the Leupold folks who make them say it.
Well he's a a Texan, and they talk different down there.

On the other hand, they have some pretty good BBQ. :love:
 
Late to watch that video.
I just wish Phillip would pronounce it LOO-POLD instead of LEE-UH-POLD.
LOO-POLD is how the Leupold folks who make them say it.
Drives me crazy also, and the only thing scopes gather is dust, they transmit existing light. 30mm tubes do not transmit more light, as some people might think, that is contolled buy the objective lens diameter. The scopes power setting divided into the objective lens diameter equals the exit pupil measured in millimeters at the ocular lense. Just my 2 millimeters worth. :)

Paul
 
I'll see that and raise you to 4mm.
 
Going to use my 375 for a one gun Safari -- I put a SIG scope on it with the BDX , I like it so far good out to 300 yards. its a 3x18 -- and gave me an excuse to buy the Range finding Binos that work with the scope --- Like I needed an excuse.
 
Drives me crazy also, and the only thing scopes gather is dust, they transmit existing light. 30mm tubes do not transmit more light, as some people might think, that is contolled buy the objective lens diameter. The scopes power setting divided into the objective lens diameter equals the exit pupil measured in millimeters at the ocular lense. Just my 2 millimeters worth. :)

Paul
To your point, more vertical and horizontal adjustment is what you're getting.

I cant shoot far enough to take advantage of this feature.
 
Every thing I know about DG hunting I learned on this site. It really seemed to me, based on reading posts here, that all DG Scopes started at 1 power on the low end and went about 24mm. Last night I was watching a Tracks Across Africa episode where Dave Filson was talking to a guy who has taken 15 wild lions and countless buffalo for bait for his lion hunts. When they talked about his scope he said he always uses a 2.5-10x50. He said he did not find "much use" for the popular 1.0 or 1.2 low end scopes and wants the higher magnification on the top end to really help him pick a spot.
 
Here is a video where I discuss my journey in finding the ultimate DG scope. Bombs away!



PG - I am late to the party in my review of your DG scope video. Nicely done Sir. Your points are well made and clearly communicated and honestly, I would say I agree with much if not most of your positions. We have evolved as hunters along a similar path and I too started with a low power classic Leupold DG optic as my 1st attempt. It was a 1.5-4x non-illuminated with a very thick reticle and all it took was one trip to the field on a deer hunt to expose that it was inadequate for my needs. It now rides on one of my 22lr squirrel rifles and works ok for tree rats.

I agree that:
  • Illuminated red dot or ring dot (ghost ring) reticles are best for all hunting.
  • Reticle choice is critical and has a lot of affect on how useable a scope will be in the field.
  • Locking turrets or capped turrets that cannot be knocked out of zero in the field are important.
  • The on/off switch on the Swarovski is one of the best designs and it also turns off the reticle anytime the rifle is slung vertical up or down with the switch on.
  • I too avoid QR rings and have never needed to remove a scope in the field.
In fact the only reason to remove a DG scope in the field to follow up on a wounded Buffalo or Lion, etc would be if the scope chosen was not a proper DG scope to begin with or if it was somehow damaged. I have never had that happen. This practice is one that I think may have its roots in time gone by when scopes were often not illuminated and were often fixed 4x optics and were also more fragile. Being in appropriate for close, fast work it had to be removed before tracking into the thich bush after that wounded buffalo. Also decades ago, in the 1950's a quality optic would cost many times what a Winchester Model 70 cost and it was thus desirable to use one scope on many rifles and that led to mounting systems that made that easier to do. These requirements mostly do not apply today. My opinion only.

Where we diverge in opinion just a bit is on the best DG solution. While a 2-12x or 3-9x scope makes for a much more versatile rifle for DG and PG, to me a DG rifle needs to be optimized for its intended purpose of killing dangerous game. To any extent that it can also be deployed on Kudu or Eland, fine. I always bring another PG rifle that is optimized for longer ranges and higher precision so my DG rifle is laser focused on those 100y and less shots on DG in low light.

I have found that the rifle shoots the same regardless of how you aim it as long as you can see well enough to aim precisely. To that end, I choose superior glass with a reticle that incorporates a red dot or better still a red ring with a fine center dot for low light and precision sight picture. With a good reticle and great glass, I can see well enough to aim precisely even at very low magnification.

1-6x or 1-8x is enough for DG. Set at 1x with both eyes open, it is as fast and accurate as a red dot hologram sight. Zoomed to 3-4x it is enough to judge horns on a Kudu at 150-200y. I refuse to shoot big DG calibers out past 200y since even the 375HH begins to slow and drop too much to suit me. Still with my 1-6x Kahles K16i, I have been able to shoot impressive groups out to 400y. That is too far for shots on game but the rifle scope combo is capable nonetheless.

The two DG optics that I have and use are the Z6 Swarovski, 1-6x duplex and the Z16i Kahles 1-6x. I like the Kahles the best. It has better, more precise turrets and a superior reticle that can be used for hold over shots at longer ranges. Not necessary for DG but super functional. The glass on both are equal and quite good. The turrets on both suck but are adequate. They are pricey and frankly, IMO not totally worth the cost for what you get. But, they are still very good optics.

Another option that I am sold on for general hunting but would not hesitate to use on DG as well is the Arken Optics EP8 LPVO. It is a ffp, lighted ring reticle, 1-8x optic that has superior capped turrets that come in Mil or MOA increments and while they are lower cost scopes, their glass is nearly as good as the two top flight Euro optics. Not as good but so good that most shooters cannot tell the difference. Another benefit of the low power optics is that all of these scopes stay focused throughout their range of magnification without the need for any separate parallax adjustment. When seconds count that is a real time saving advantage.

They also hold up to my two 338 magnum rifles which kick as much as my 375's due to being lighter rifles. I have taken game with these scopes out to over 300y dialed to 8x. I see no reason for a hunter to routinely shoot much further except for specialized situations. Pics below show one of my DG rifles with the Kahles mounted and the other two are the EP8 reticle at 1x and 8x to show what it looks like. The only optic I have found that out classes the Arken as a hunting scope is the Trijicon Credo. But it also costs about 3x as much. Sometimes you do get what you pay for.

ER Shaw Custom 375HH.jpg
LP-8 1x.png
LP-8 6x.png
 
PG - I am late to the party in my review of your DG scope video. Nicely done Sir. Your points are well made and clearly communicated and honestly, I would say I agree with much if not most of your positions. We have evolved as hunters along a similar path and I too started with a low power classic Leupold DG optic as my 1st attempt. It was a 1.5-4x non-illuminated with a very thick reticle and all it took was one trip to the field on a deer hunt to expose that it was inadequate for my needs. It now rides on one of my 22lr squirrel rifles and works ok for tree rats.

I agree that:
  • Illuminated red dot or ring dot (ghost ring) reticles are best for all hunting.
  • Reticle choice is critical and has a lot of affect on how useable a scope will be in the field.
  • Locking turrets or capped turrets that cannot be knocked out of zero in the field are important.
  • The on/off switch on the Swarovski is one of the best designs and it also turns off the reticle anytime the rifle is slung vertical up or down with the switch on.
  • I too avoid QR rings and have never needed to remove a scope in the field.
In fact the only reason to remove a DG scope in the field to follow up on a wounded Buffalo or Lion, etc would be if the scope chosen was not a proper DG scope to begin with or if it was somehow damaged. I have never had that happen. This practice is one that I think may have its roots in time gone by when scopes were often not illuminated and were often fixed 4x optics and were also more fragile. Being in appropriate for close, fast work it had to be removed before tracking into the thich bush after that wounded buffalo. Also decades ago, in the 1950's a quality optic would cost many times what a Winchester Model 70 cost and it was thus desirable to use one scope on many rifles and that led to mounting systems that made that easier to do. These requirements mostly do not apply today. My opinion only.

Where we diverge in opinion just a bit is on the best DG solution. While a 2-12x or 3-9x scope makes for a much more versatile rifle for DG and PG, to me a DG rifle needs to be optimized for its intended purpose of killing dangerous game. To any extent that it can also be deployed on Kudu or Eland, fine. I always bring another PG rifle that is optimized for longer ranges and higher precision so my DG rifle is laser focused on those 100y and less shots on DG in low light.

I have found that the rifle shoots the same regardless of how you aim it as long as you can see well enough to aim precisely. To that end, I choose superior glass with a reticle that incorporates a red dot or better still a red ring with a fine center dot for low light and precision sight picture. With a good reticle and great glass, I can see well enough to aim precisely even at very low magnification.

1-6x or 1-8x is enough for DG. Set at 1x with both eyes open, it is as fast and accurate as a red dot hologram sight. Zoomed to 3-4x it is enough to judge horns on a Kudu at 150-200y. I refuse to shoot big DG calibers out past 200y since even the 375HH begins to slow and drop too much to suit me. Still with my 1-6x Kahles K16i, I have been able to shoot impressive groups out to 400y. That is too far for shots on game but the rifle scope combo is capable nonetheless.

The two DG optics that I have and use are the Z6 Swarovski, 1-6x duplex and the Z16i Kahles 1-6x. I like the Kahles the best. It has better, more precise turrets and a superior reticle that can be used for hold over shots at longer ranges. Not necessary for DG but super functional. The glass on both are equal and quite good. The turrets on both suck but are adequate. They are pricey and frankly, IMO not totally worth the cost for what you get. But, they are still very good optics.

Another option that I am sold on for general hunting but would not hesitate to use on DG as well is the Arken Optics EP8 LPVO. It is a ffp, lighted ring reticle, 1-8x optic that has superior capped turrets that come in Mil or MOA increments and while they are lower cost scopes, their glass is nearly as good as the two top flight Euro optics. Not as good but so good that most shooters cannot tell the difference. Another benefit of the low power optics is that all of these scopes stay focused throughout their range of magnification without the need for any separate parallax adjustment. When seconds count that is a real time saving advantage.

They also hold up to my two 338 magnum rifles which kick as much as my 375's due to being lighter rifles. I have taken game with these scopes out to over 300y dialed to 8x. I see no reason for a hunter to routinely shoot much further except for specialized situations. Pics below show one of my DG rifles with the Kahles mounted and the other two are the EP8 reticle at 1x and 8x to show what it looks like. The only optic I have found that out classes the Arken as a hunting scope is the Trijicon Credo. But it also costs about 3x as much. Sometimes you do get what you pay for.

View attachment 793200View attachment 793202View attachment 793203
Thanks for joining the discussion!
 
Late to watch that video.
I just wish Phillip would pronounce it LOO-POLD instead of LEE-UH-POLD.
LOO-POLD is how the Leupold folks who make them say it.
Yea we have our own way of pronouncing things down here. Hard to change he when you been saying it a certain way for nearly 50 years. It was only on TV that I first heard it pronounced LOO-POLD! I think they are from Oregon last time I checked?
 

Forum statistics

Threads
70,655
Messages
1,582,526
Members
172,334
Latest member
ChristyTri
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

Check out our Cull Package Eastern Cape.Springbuck only one of these available. 2027
Bushcat Safaris wrote on Frenchy06's profile.
Hay MR French welcome to the sight.
Same'Ol wrote on 45-70guy's profile.
This guy is a scammer and i find him very odd.
 
Top