Joseph Lang Sidelock or Westley Richards 470

[soumya sarkar]

I am curious about the several comments on this thread as to having JJ Perodeau "check out" the guns in question. That would be a very expensive proposition to start sending high end guns to JJ, assuming both Barnett guns and JJ would even consider doing that. In JJ's case, he has his own for sale along with Champlin. Three day inspections (I might add non-shooting) are the norm and Steve Barnett (Now Morris) is a very reliable and well known dealer. Should be no problem there. I have bought and sold many double rifles over the years, and have never had a "gunsmith" check them out. Bore condition and being "tight on the face" are paramount. Wood condition is also a factor, but that is easy with a visual check. Of course, here both guns appear to have been redone. Which brings me to another point. Were they full restorations, that is mechanical as well, or just cosmetic? A gunsmith checking a gun out for possible purchase is not normally going to open up the action. However, here that is very easy. The WR locks simply drop out for inspection - the Lang has sidelocks, which do not appear to be "hand detachable," but can be easily removed with a single screw, although you may not want to do that yourself, unless you are extremely competent to do so - nothing worse than a damage screw head on a fine gun. As they say, "you broke it, you own it."

Lastly, I am also curious about the intended use for the purchase of one of these guns? If it is going to be basically a "safe queen," then aesthetics rule. On the other, if the intent is to use it for the intended purpose of such double rifles, i.e., hunting beasties than can shoot back, so to speak, then perhaps a new double would be the better choice. Mechanical parts do fail over time, especially springs.

Great advice, my question is should the mechanical parts springs etc fail over time, can it be repaired here in the US? Sorry if it is a Stupid question.
I have also discussed with Chris regarding a 89B from Heym in the same caliber, do you think that would be better? I just though a old British Gun pre-war has more charm to it. I could be wrong.

Lastly I plan to use this Gun in Africa and US, I do not plan to keep it a safe or as an investment/asset. Pln to keep it forever.

 

[Berettaco]

I have owned 3 double rifles and 2 of the 3 weren’t regulated that well. That’s the main thing past the initial inspection (condition, fit/finish, stock length etc..) that concerns me. If it were for a $30K rifle I would expect a test card at a minimum. For a consigned gun or even a higher end shop this may be possible, I don’t don’t many sellers willing to hand a nice double over to an unknown seller for an actual functional test for regulation, ejection, etc…

 

[Berettaco]

Great advice, my question is should the mechanical parts springs etc fail over time, can it be repaired here in the US? Sorry if it is a Stupid question.
I have also discussed with Chris regarding a 89B from Heym in the same caliber, do you think that would be better? I just though a old British Gun pre-war has more charm to it. I could be wrong.

Lastly I plan to use this Gun in Africa and US, I do not plan to keep it a safe or as an investment/asset. Pln to keep it forever.

A new Heym is not a bad option at all - the warranty and available parts is very appealing should you actually plan to use it

 

[JPmbogo]

Great advice, my question is should the mechanical parts springs etc fail over time, can it be repaired here in the US? Sorry if it is a Stupid question.
I have also discussed with Chris regarding a 89B from Heym in the same caliber, do you think that would be better? I just though a old British Gun pre-war has more charm to it. I could be wrong.

Lastly I plan to use this Gun in Africa and US, I do not plan to keep it a safe or as an investment/asset. Pln to keep it forever.

Yes, they can be repaired here. JJ Perodeau for one. I use a local gunsmith who does not have such a national reputation, but I have had him do such work for me on some fine British guns. Agreed, the British pre-war guns do have more charm. I have a lovely WR 470 boxlock, built in 1914. I enjoy looking at and shooting it, but if I go again, I am going with a Heym or Verney Carron 500.

 

[uplander01]

If you like nostalgia, and are going to use this double to hunt a time or two, and you are a hand loader willing to spend some time "figuring out" the barrel regulation, and understand that large doubles are relatively close range tools, there are a couple guys in the US that can fix anything else. My experience has been most of the high quality double rifles from england do what they are supposed to do. Throwing some factory loads from Norma, Hornady or Federal in the thing and expecting it to work, ----won't work. That is the only real benefit to lets say a Heym. If the Airlines loses your ammo luggage you can probably find Norma, Federal, or Hornady ammo which is what the Heym will be regulated for. But lets not kid ourselves, as good a rifle as the Heym is, which they are damn good, it is not the same as a vintage english double from that era. Whatever wizardry they had in the late 1800's all the way up through the first half of the 20th century is unknown to me as I am a mere mortal, but it's real.

The point about the test sheet is a good point,...usually they are lost through the years, but most of the time when a rifle was fully mechanically and aesthetically restored it would have a test target,....more than likely with kynoch ammo. If it's cased you might ask if they can look in there a bit for a piece of paper. The last one I bought had that with it, and it meant nothing other than I new it was regulated with a 500gr bullet LOL. Supposedly HH made their own ammo for a while in the late 90's early 2000's when the rifle I bought was fully restored by them. The 470 to my knowledge was always used with a 500 grain projectile. There are even a handful of guys that will load regulate it for you, or at the very least give you a little framework for doing load development yourself.

 

[soumya sarkar]

If you like nostalgia, and are going to use this double to hunt a time or two, and you are a hand loader willing to spend some time "figuring out" the barrel regulation, and understand that large doubles are relatively close range tools, there are a couple guys in the US that can fix anything else. My experience has been most of the high quality double rifles from england do what they are supposed to do. Throwing some factory loads from Norma, Hornady or Federal in the thing and expecting it to work, ----won't work. That is the only real benefit to lets say a Heym. If the Airlines loses your ammo luggage you can probably find Norma, Federal, or Hornady ammo which is what the Heym will be regulated for. But lets not kid ourselves, as good a rifle as the Heym is, which they are damn good, it is not the same as a vintage english double from that era. Whatever wizardry they had in the late 1800's all the way up through the first half of the 20th century is unknown to me as I am a mere mortal, but it's real.

The point about the test sheet is a good point,...usually they are lost through the years, but most of the time when a rifle was fully mechanically and aesthetically restored it would have a test target,....more than likely with kynoch ammo. If it's cased you might ask if they can look in there a bit for a piece of paper. The last one I bought had that with it, and it meant nothing other than I new it was regulated with a 500gr bullet LOL. Supposedly HH made their own ammo for a while in the late 90's early 2000's when the rifle I bought was fully restored by them. The 470 to my knowledge was always used with a 500 grain projectile. There are even a handful of guys that will load regulate it for you, or at the very least give you a little framework for doing load development yourself.

I can safely say, I'm not a hand loader, maybe in the future as I pick up things, definitely plan to work it out. So I can safely say I will use factory loaded ammo, Norma, Hornady, Federal whatever is available in the 500 grain category. Where does this leave me, I really do not know, but buying this rifle and finding that it does not regulate well will be a big BUMMER.

 

[uplander01]

If this is your situation I would honestly go with the Heym and have them regulate it with factory ammo you feel you'll be able to get or at least stock up on. Double rifle hand loading done right is probably more than you want to take on.

 

[93marlin]

If this is your situation I would honestly go with the Heym and have them regulate it with factory ammo you feel you'll be able to get or at least stock up on. Double rifle hand loading done right is probably more than you want to take on.

Reloading for a double rifle can be tedious, but once you have found THE load that checks off all of boxes, regulates, acceptable recoil, and most importantly, does it do the job that you are asking of it, that feeling that it's your load is worth all of the work that you have done to find THE load.

 

[cajunchefray]

The Westley Richards droplock 470 NE is a very fine and classic rifle. If ever needed they are in business in the UK and can be accessed for information or service. As much as I like Langs, the WR would be my choice!

The Wesley Richards drop lock is a fascinating weapon. I'll never forget the first time I handled one, and the owner of many beautiful English guns and rifles, in Greenville South Carolina, showed me his different weapons and explained all of the features. A retired mechanical engineer, he couldn't hear for s**t but I always liked to visit with him. He would bring 10 -12 guns and rifles to the gun shows just for display because" all these buyers want now is black rifles with plastic. Being a double rifle /Africa neophyte, I wonder if there is utility in having a drop lock for in the bush maintenance, and cleaning.

The WR Droplock seemed eminently practical to this old farm boy.

However, the Joseph Lang just has that appeal of the really sexy brunette.

For the money, I think it's worth a trip to Mississippi to handle each one and determine the best fit. Just like the right brunette.

 

[Red Leg]

I can safely say, I'm not a hand loader, maybe in the future as I pick up things, definitely plan to work it out. So I can safely say I will use factory loaded ammo, Norma, Hornady, Federal whatever is available in the 500 grain category. Where does this leave me, I really do not know, but buying this rifle and finding that it does not regulate well will be a big BUMMER.

There are several people in this country who will take your vintage double and work up loads for it. The best I know is Lance Hendershot https://hendershots.net/ Assuming the rifle is undamaged, he will work up a SP and Solid load that properly regulates in the rifle. Should that fail, JJ Perodeau can reregulate the rifle for pretty much anything that shoots well in each barrel - for a price.

If I may offer a suggestion. Many people become enamored with the idea of a double without ever had any experience with one. Recoil and pie-plate groups at fifty-yards can make them seem a whole lot less interesting when an expensive safari for dangerous game is on the horizon and the .375 in the corner comfortably shoots MOA at a hundred.

The two rifles you are considering represent jumping into the pool at the fairly deep end. A more utilitarian and cheaper modern rifle by Merkel or VC would be a great place to start to see if this is the sort of investment you really want to make.

 

[uplander01]

Red Leg pretty much summed it up. I've been hand loading for 30 years so I enjoy the challenge and understand it. Just starting out, it would probably make you want to quite LOL.

 

[soumya sarkar]

There are several people in this country who will take your vintage double and work up loads for it. The best I know is Lance Hendershot https://hendershots.net/ Assuming the rifle is undamaged, he will work up a SP and Solid load that properly regulates in the rifle. Should that fail, JJ Perodeau can reregulate the rifle for pretty much anything that shoots well in each barrel - for a price.

If I may offer a suggestion. Many people become enamored with the idea of a double without ever had any experience with one. Recoil and pie-plate groups at fifty-yards can make them seem a whole lot less interesting when an expensive safari for dangerous game is on the horizon and the .375 in the corner comfortably shoots MOA at a hundred.

The two rifles you are considering represent jumping into the pool at the fairly deep end. A more utilitarian and cheaper modern rifle by Merkel or VC would be a great place to start to see if this is the sort of investment you really want to make.

I hear you loud and clear, even though it is swaying me away from a British double but you have a valid point. Accuracy is important, v important so let me think again

 

[soumya sarkar]

Red Leg pretty much summed it up. I've been hand loading for 30 years so I enjoy the challenge and understand it. Just starting out, it would probably make you want to quite LOL.

Yes Understand. Starting to take on a double and trying to find the right load may be overwhelming.

 

[Rare Breed]

Great advice, my question is should the mechanical parts springs etc fail over time, can it be repaired here in the US? Sorry if it is a Stupid question.
I have also discussed with Chris regarding a 89B from Heym in the same caliber, do you think that would be better? I just though a old British Gun pre-war has more charm to it. I could be wrong.

Lastly I plan to use this Gun in Africa and US, I do not plan to keep it a safe or as an investment/asset. Pln to keep it forever.

I very respectively disagree. When you are spending this type of money $30-$50k what is shipment to JJ a very trusted double rifle expert cost? Pennies on the dollar. These are not new guns they are old and no telling what problems they may have. On this the saying penny wise pound foolish comes to mind. Just my POV respectively

 

[soumya sarkar]

I very respectively disagree. When you are spending this type of money $30-$50k what is shipment to JJ a very trusted double rifle expert cost? Pennies on the dollar. These are not new guns they are old and no telling what problems they may have. On this the saying penny wise pound foolish comes to mind. Just my POV respectively

I agree, that’s not a issue at all. Old things will fail over time and it’s acceptable. However I do not want to get into a situation where I find the rifle is not accurate with factory ammo and I have to send it off to be regulated. I’d much rather go for a new Heym/ Krieghoff that’s well regulated with available factory ammo.

 

[Rare Breed]

I agree, that’s not a issue at all. Old things will fail over time and it’s acceptable. However I do not want to get into a situation where I find the rifle is not accurate with factory ammo and I have to send it off to be regulated. I’d much rather go for a new Heym/ Krieghoff that’s well regulated with available factory ammo.

100% agree! I would go with a new Heym/Krieghoff before these two. Although I certainly respect the two guns. Are they to collect or hunt. I respect either. I just do not have safe queens…if I have them then they hunt just my POV. Certainly respect others who do not want to get a scratch on their beautiful rifles…that just is not me

 

[Pondoro]

Both are very high quality rifles...if in good order and not regulating with factory ammo I would either work up loads or re-regulate for Federal or Norma factory ammo..

The vintage rifles will hold their value better than modern ones....and for me it gives me pleasure to hunt with something hand filed more than 100 years ago..... But I will freely admit going both ways....hunting with vintage doubles as well as a Krieghoff .470...

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Current manufacturers of .470 Nitro Express ammunition are:
- Federal (500Gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw + brass jacketed Sledgehammer Solid)
- Hornady (500Gr DGX Bonded + steel jacketed DGS)
- Swift (500Gr A Frame + Beak Away Solid)
- Labor Fur Ballistik (500Gr TMR + copper jacketed VMR)
- Barnes (500Gr TSX + copper Banded Solids)

The Labor Fur Ballistik factory has the highest probability of regulating properly in the vintage Joseph Lang. I’d avoid the Barnes loads on a rifle of this vintage, because I believe that monolithic bullets would exert more strain on the barrels than traditional lead cored bullets.

 

[Aaron N]

Wouldn’t Norma PH loaded with Woodleighs replicate the old Kynoch loads? I’d venture a guess that would be the place to start for a regulation load.

 

[soumya sarkar]

Current manufacturers of .470 Nitro Express ammunition are:
- Federal (500Gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw + brass jacketed Sledgehammer Solid)
- Hornady (500Gr DGX Bonded + steel jacketed DGS)
- Swift (500Gr A Frame + Beak Away Solid)
- Labor Fur Ballistik (500Gr TMR + copper jacketed VMR)
- Barnes (500Gr TSX + copper Banded Solids)

The Labor Fur Ballistik factory has the highest probability of regulating properly in the vintage Joseph Lang. I’d avoid the Barnes loads on a rifle of this vintage, because I believe that monolithic bullets would exert more strain on the barrels than traditional lead cored bullets.

Understand but challenge is availability.