The old crf vs prf debate....

[Ray B]

Just for the hell of it Ray.............

Tell us just how many Remington 700 extractors have you personally broken in your lifetime just shooting and not trying to dig one out the wrong way with a screwdriver?

Though one guy swears he broke his shooting the 3 other I replaced in 40 years were broken by the owner in an attempt to take it out......... for whatever reason

So now you are trying to belittle me instead of dealing with the strengths and weaknesses of the two designs?

Just for the heaven of it, I have never broken a Remington extractor, although looking at them and reading where others have, it causes concern on my part.

However, I have had SEVERAL cases stuck in a chamber for one reason or another and the little grip on the rim managed only to rip a chunk off of the rim, leaving the case in the chamber, requiring a cleaning rod down the barrel to remove the case. Before you accuse me of unsafe reloading practices, the cause in most situations was firing neck sized cases that should have been full resized and not a result of excessive pressure.

so go ahead and show how much of a Demonrat you are and start attacking me personally.

 

[Fastrig]

So now you are trying to belittle me instead of dealing with the strengths and weaknesses of the two designs?

Just for the heaven of it, I have never broken a Remington extractor, although looking at them and reading where others have, it causes concern on my part.

However, I have had SEVERAL cases stuck in a chamber for one reason or another and the little grip on the rim managed only to rip a chunk off of the rim, leaving the case in the chamber, requiring a cleaning rod down the barrel to remove the case. Before you accuse me of unsafe reloading practices, the cause in most situations was firing neck sized cases that should have been full resized and not a result of excessive pressure.

so go ahead and show how much of a Demonrat you are and start attacking me personally.

Out of curiosity, as I've never owned that Remington model, are you saying that the extractor wasn't/isn't strong enough to pull a faulty casing from the rifle? Had something similar happen with a Mauser one time when I was handed a friend's hand loaded cartridges to try out at the range and things went south. Another friend, with more experience, took a look and found that apparently the cases weren't prepped properly. Had to do what you did and use a cleaning rod to clear the thing, case was jammed pretty tight and don't think any extractor would have gotten it out. Really can't blame the extractor in this case.

 

[Von S.]

So now you are trying to belittle me instead of dealing with the strengths and weaknesses of the two designs?

Just for the heaven of it, I have never broken a Remington extractor, although looking at them and reading where others have, it causes concern on my part.

However, I have had SEVERAL cases stuck in a chamber for one reason or another and the little grip on the rim managed only to rip a chunk off of the rim, leaving the case in the chamber, requiring a cleaning rod down the barrel to remove the case. Before you accuse me of unsafe reloading practices, the cause in most situations was firing neck sized cases that should have been full resized and not a result of excessive pressure.

so go ahead and show how much of a Demonrat you are and start attacking me personally.

Oh stop with the drama Ray........I simply asked you a question that you answered truthfully. So drop the violin and wipe the snot bubble from the end of your nose, no one is attacking you.

My next question of you is do you really expect any extractor system to pry out a case that is so stuck in the chamber that it takes a length of drill rod and a hammer to get it out? Have you ever had a case stuck in a mauser?

Do you believe that the Remington extractor should have done more after it tore a chunk of the rim off attempting to get the case out?

Here's a novel idea. How's about fixing the problem that made the case stuck to begin with and quit blaming what isn't the real problem.

Oh......I have replaced many broke, bent and mangled mauser extractors over the years,

 

[Newboomer]

I have and have used both push and crf and the only problem I've had was a stuck case in a Rem 700. That was from Russian steel case ammo which has a shellac coating. After a fast string the shellac on a round melted and glued the case into the chamber. Upon trying to extract the case it tore a piece off the rim so I had to knock it out with a rod. In that case the push feed worked fine, no slipping off the rim or breaking. However, my "African" rifles are crf in all calibers and fully tested before I travel.

 

[Ray B]

To be fair, I have broken a M70 CRF extractor. I was using some brass formed from 404 to 375 RUM. the rim hadn't been turned down to .532 and there wasn't space between the ring and the rim to allow for the extractor to pop-over the rim. the result was the extractor broke. so based strictly on my experience, it would show that the crf are more prone to breakage than the pf. However, as noted elsewhere, I have witnessed more problems due to the Remington style extractor and design due to three features:1. small grip on rim, needing to have bolt turned completely down and in some situations the rifle needs to be fired to get the extractor to get a grip on the case & 3, while not specifically an extractor issue, the recessed boltface places the junction (gap) between receiver and barrel at a weaker/less supported portion of the case. for these reasons I prefer the crf design. you may return to your projecting.

 

[Fastrig]

To be fair, I have broken a M70 CRF extractor. I was using some brass formed from 404 to 375 RUM. the rim hadn't been turned down to .532 and there wasn't space between the ring and the rim to allow for the extractor to pop-over the rim. the result was the extractor broke. so based strictly on my experience, it would show that the crf are more prone to breakage than the pf. However, as noted elsewhere, I have witnessed more problems due to the Remington style extractor and design due to three features:1. small grip on rim, needing to have bolt turned completely down and in some situations the rifle needs to be fired to get the extractor to get a grip on the case & 3, while not specifically an extractor issue, the recessed boltface places the junction (gap) between receiver and barrel at a weaker/less supported portion of the case. for these reasons I prefer the crf design. you may return to your projecting.

Out of curiosity, is it the 700 Remington design for push feed extractors that you find objectionable or do you feel all of them are the same? I'm looking at the extractor on my Mauser M12, push feed design, and this thing is pretty beefy. May not be as beefy as the CRF found in the 98, but there isn't anything that looks cheep or weak in the M12 action.

 

[Scott CWO]

In that situation a rifle is, for the most part, useless. A side arm is your best bet and why so many hunters in bear country carry them religiously. You Might get a shot off with that rifle if it’s already got one in the chamber when a bear is on you but cycling for a round in that circumstance, i.e. a bear is tearing into you, is going to be damn near impossible. The side arm, and I’m not going to debate wheel gun vs. semi, is by far your best bet as you can fire multiple shots in succession with no cycling necessary, which is what you want in an emergency of that type. A bolt action hunting rifle is not designed for close range encounters, a side arm is. If you want a close range long gun then a double or a shotgun are better designs. Not discounting your comments, but why would a rifle manufacture pay the medical bills for someone that got themselves in that situation? It certainly wasn’t their firearm’s fault and doing so would set a very bad precedent for their company.

Yeah well he didn’t have a sidearm and his hunter panicked and left him for dead and went back to the skiff. As I said earlier, he now carries a sidearm but he’s not sure if it would have helped. It might have helped but we will never know for sure. It was the firearms fault. You don’t know the details to make that statement.

The bear was wounded already and charged him from heavy cover. He got another shot into it but there wasn’t enough time to shoot again before the bear tackled him. Bears are extremely fast. Even if he had a sidearm, it wouldn’t be protocol to shoot a charging bear with a sidearm. The sidearm may have been able to be deployed after he was tackled. Everything happened so fast that he didn’t have time to cycle another round until he was on his back and fighting for his life as the bear tore into him. Trying to replicate this by grabbing a push feed from your safe and laying on your back is ridiculous. The bear was grabbing his legs and body with it’s jaws and tossing him around like a rag doll. It is in this moment that the rifle malfunctioned from all his adrenaline packed strength and would not feed or close on a round.

The rifle was a popular brand (that I see many on this site bragging about). It DID malfunction because of all the adrenaline and panicked strength and torque he applied to it in such a DANGEROUS situation. He did nothing wrong. The bolt refused to close so he ended up having to hold the rifle in both hands sideways to stick it in the bears mouth in an effort to keep the bear away from his head and neck.

The bear had been shot 3 times. After a few minutes, the bear became sick enough that it sat down and started swaying back and forth. It then jumped on him again before stopping and sitting down again. When it laid down, he got up and hobbled out of the forest on a badly mangled broken right foot. He also had a big chunk ripped out of his left thigh (just missed the femoral artery) and his hands and arms were mangled and bloodied from the bear biting them while he kept the rifle in the bears mouth. When he reached the beach, he called the Coast Guard on his hand held radio and then passed out for a while. The CG landed a chopper and took him to Juneau. The next day, a State Trooper and Forest Service employee found the bear dead where it had laid down next to the guide’s mangled boot. The guide was in great physical shape and most anyone else probably wouldn’t have survived. He is a very experienced and well known outfitter in Alaska and is still guiding. He underwent several surgeries and the doctors wanted to amputate his leg but he begged them to try to save it. A special surgeon was flown in to work on his foot.

He is an excellent shot and rifleman. It’s easy to sit in the comfort of a home or office on a computer and tell me what he should have done differently. A local gunsmith took pictures of the rifle and bolt and then sent it to the manufacturer. The guide did not sue them but they offered to pay his medical expenses in exchange for the rifle. True story.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Just to add another perspective, there are other options than what Remington uses for an extractor and ejector setup on a push feed rifle. Here are four bolts out of four different brands of push feed actions.

Left to right, Stolle Atlas, Remington modified with Sako extractor, Pierce and Stiller.

 

[Fastrig]

Yeah well he didn’t have a sidearm and his hunter panicked and left him for dead and went back to the skiff. As I said earlier, he now carries a sidearm but he’s not sure if it would have helped. It might have helped but we will never know for sure. It was the firearms fault. You don’t know the details to make that statement.

The bear was wounded already and charged him from heavy cover. He got another shot into it but there wasn’t enough time to shoot again before the bear tackled him. Bears are extremely fast. Even if he had a sidearm, it wouldn’t be protocol to shoot a charging bear with a sidearm. The sidearm may have been able to be deployed after he was tackled. Everything happened so fast that he didn’t have time to cycle another round until he was on his back and fighting for his life as the bear tore into him. Trying to replicate this by grabbing a push feed from your safe and laying on your back is ridiculous. The bear was grabbing his legs and body with it’s jaws and tossing him around like a rag doll. It is in this moment that the rifle malfunctioned from all his adrenaline packed strength and would not feed or close on a round.

The rifle was a popular brand (that I see many on this site bragging about). It DID malfunction because of all the adrenaline and panicked strength and torque he applied to it in such a DANGEROUS situation. He did nothing wrong. The bolt refused to close so he ended up having to hold the rifle in both hands sideways to stick it in the bears mouth in an effort to keep the bear away from his head and neck.

The bear had been shot 3 times. After a few minutes, the bear became sick enough that it sat down and started swaying back and forth. It then jumped on him again before stopping and sitting down again. When it laid down, he got up and hobbled out of the forest on a badly mangled broken right foot. He also had a big chunk ripped out of his left thigh (just missed the femoral artery) and his hands and arms were mangled and bloodied from the bear biting them while he kept the rifle in the bears mouth. When he reached the beach, he called the Coast Guard on his hand held radio and then passed out for a while. The CG landed a chopper and took him to Juneau. The next day, a State Trooper and Forest Service employee found the bear dead where it had laid down next to the guide’s mangled boot. The guide was in great physical shape and most anyone else probably wouldn’t have survived. He is a very experienced and well known outfitter in Alaska and is still guiding. He underwent several surgeries and the doctors wanted to amputate his leg but he begged them to try to save it. A special surgeon was flown in to work on his foot.

He is an excellent shot and rifleman. It’s easy to sit in the comfort of a home or office on a computer and tell me what he should have done differently. A local gunsmith took pictures of the rifle and bolt and then sent it to the manufacturer. The guide did not sue them but they offered to pay his medical expenses in exchange for the rifle. True story.

First off, I didn't make a statement, I certainly didn't question the authenticity of your story, I asked a question. A company offering to pay medical bills, even if the rifle malfunctioned, would be an unusual thing, a good thing but very unusual. If you think trying to replicate your assertions on push feeds not cycling upside down is ridiculous, well that's your opinion, however my simple test did show that they do indeed cycle just fine upside down, while on your back, so your assertions may need to be adjusted a bit. It also showed that a human screwing up on cycling a control fed rifle is a reality as well. You are making broad statements based on ONE incident, in which you weren't involved and getting, at best, second hand accounts. I seriously doubt this friend of yours, or anyone else for that matter, would have gotten a control fed rifle, or any other rifle, cycled in the very serious and unfortunate situation he found himself in. What he did with the rifle was quick thinking and probably the best he could have done. I am, by the way, very glad to hear he's okay. I don't know all the details, but based on your rendition, even it he got it cycled how would he have been able to aim a roughly 40" rifle with that bear on top of him going for head and neck? That's what I was trying to envision in my little test, and couldn't see a way I'd be able to do so, and doubt seriously if he could have either. A heavy caliber side arm, however, he very well may have been able to bring to target on the bear's head or vital areas, but like you said, we'll never know. Glad to hear he's carrying one now. You can bluster all you'd like, but I have friends in Alaska and I'm not making any judgements one way or the other but rather reciting all the advice and expertise those folks provided me when I was there on my two brown hunts. Two of those folks have had close and dangerous encounters with browns, thankfully they didn't turn out like your poor friend's did, and I tend to listen to the advice folks who actually experienced those situations give me. The advise on the side arm was the first given to me before I headed to Alaska, so I bought and brought one.

Oh, it was one of my friends in Alaska that turned me onto the Mauser M12 rifles. He says it's the most reliable rifle he's ever had. It's push feed. He has the standard style stock, I bought the thumb hole stock. He hunts bear with his without hesitation. To each their own.

 

[BeeMaa]

Is this still going on?
Alrighty...carry on.

 

[Fastrig]

Is this still going on?
Alrighty...carry on.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ray B]

Out of curiosity, is it the 700 Remington design for push feed extractors that you find objectionable or do you feel all of them are the same?

My criticism of the Remington extractor has to do with the small surface area that it contacts the rim and the need to completely close the bolt and sometimes fire the rifle to get the extractor to grip the rim. There are other push feed types that contact more of the rim and grip the rim without full closure. So my criticism addresses those two shortcomings rather than specifically the push feed system or makers. Possibly other M700s would not have the symptoms that I have observed with the few M700s in which I am familiar.

 

[postoak]

I've owned only one 700 rifle. It failed to extract on the very first shot and about 20% of them thereafter until I sent it in for repair. After a few hundred rounds when it came back, the replacement extractor broke.

The post-64 Model 70 pushfeed came with a nice extractor.

 

[Scott CWO]

First off, I didn't make a statement, I certainly didn't question the authenticity of your story, I asked a question. A company offering to pay medical bills, even if the rifle malfunctioned, would be an unusual thing, a good thing but very unusual. If you think trying to replicate your assertions on push feeds not cycling upside down is ridiculous, well that's your opinion, however my simple test did show that they do indeed cycle just fine upside down, while on your back, so your assertions may need to be adjusted a bit. It also showed that a human screwing up on cycling a control fed rifle is a reality as well. You are making broad statements based on ONE incident, in which you weren't involved and getting, at best, second hand accounts. I seriously doubt this friend of yours, or anyone else for that matter, would have gotten a control fed rifle, or any other rifle, cycled in the very serious and unfortunate situation he found himself in. What he did with the rifle was quick thinking and probably the best he could have done. I am, by the way, very glad to hear he's okay. I don't know all the details, but based on your rendition, even it he got it cycled how would he have been able to aim a roughly 40" rifle with that bear on top of him going for head and neck? That's what I was trying to envision in my little test, and couldn't see a way I'd be able to do so, and doubt seriously if he could have either. A heavy caliber side arm, however, he very well may have been able to bring to target on the bear's head or vital areas, but like you said, we'll never know. Glad to hear he's carrying one now. You can bluster all you'd like, but I have friends in Alaska and I'm not making any judgements one way or the other but rather reciting all the advice and expertise those folks provided me when I was there on my two brown hunts. Two of those folks have had close and dangerous encounters with browns, thankfully they didn't turn out like your poor friend's did, and I tend to listen to the advice folks who actually experienced those situations give me. The advise on the side arm was the first given to me before I headed to Alaska, so I bought and brought one.

Oh, it was one of my friends in Alaska that turned me onto the Mauser M12 rifles. He says it's the most reliable rifle he's ever had. It's push feed. He has the standard style stock, I bought the thumb hole stock. He hunts bear with his without hesitation. To each their own.

Now you have made the statement that he screwed up twice. This upsets me. He did ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong. S#&t happens. He survived and his foot is back to 95%. These statements of yours remind me how after I was attacked in the CAR in 2016 by nine terrorists with AK-47s, that I was told that I should have shot back at them with a .375 H&H bolt action I was carrying (CRF by the way provided by my PH - do you see a pattern here?) with three rounds in it. I had no way to even get off a shot due to the hail of bullets landing all around me yet some bozos on the internet (not from this site) act like they were there and try to tell me what I should have done differently. I did everything correctly or I wouldn't be here. Kind of reminds me about how lots of people try to second guess cops or soldiers after a shooting. You don't understand until you've been there.

You make other statements like how you doubt he or anyone else could have chambered a round in a CRF rifle. How the heck do you know? Were you there? You are wrong. He told me he would have had time during a couple of different moments during the attack. At times, he was laying on his back and kicking at the bear with his feet and had the damn rifle pointed in the bears direction more than once but the rifle was screwed up. At other times, the bear was up near his shoulders trying to get at his head. What do you need, video of the attack?? My "rendition" and "second hand accounts" come from first hand information he tells me when I am with him TWICE a year when he hunts in Colorado with me and when I am with him in Alaska. Our families also spend time together at SCI. I also went and visited him in the hospital in Alaska when I heard about the incident after I was done guiding elsewhere in Alaska. Quit acting like you have insight into the incident and what should have happened. You have no clue what happened except the bits I have relayed.

He has guided hundreds of hunters (4 each spring and 4 each fall times 28 years is 232 hunts) on brown bear hunts in SE Alaska. It's funny how your limited experience and what your experienced friends from Alaska have told you carries more weight than what my friend and I say, as well as most African PHs. We have both been guiding since 1991 and I guide for six months each year. My first trip to the AK Peninsula was in 1998. I have had my share of close calls at extremely close range but nothing like his. I didn't second guess him, I learned from it. It's interesting how guys on this site will take it as Gospel when an African PH backs up the idea that a CRF rifle is best for DG, but nobody else with possibly even more experience matters. I stand by my statements as they come from 29 years guiding, seven trips to wild, free range concessions in Africa and from talking with dozens of other guides and PHs. I didn't do just two brown bear hunts and then do some talking. Yes, to each his own, indeed.

 

[Fastrig]

My criticism of the Remington extractor has to do with the small surface area that it contacts the rim and the need to completely close the bolt and sometimes fire the rifle to get the extractor to grip the rim. There are other push feed types that contact more of the rim and grip the rim without full closure. So my criticism addresses those two shortcomings rather than specifically the push feed system or makers. Possibly other M700s would not have the symptoms that I have observed with the few M700s in which I am familiar.

Thank you.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

 

[Fastrig]

Now you have made the statement that he screwed up twice. This upsets me. He did ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong. S#&t happens. He survived and his foot is back to 95%. These statements of yours remind me how after I was attacked in the CAR in 2016 by nine terrorists with AK-47s, that I was told that I should have shot back at them with a .375 H&H bolt action I was carrying (CRF by the way provided by my PH - do you see a pattern here?) with three rounds in it. I had no way to even get off a shot due to the hail of bullets landing all around me yet some bozos on the internet (not from this site) act like they were there and try to tell me what I should have done differently. I did everything correctly or I wouldn't be here. Kind of reminds me about how lots of people try to second guess cops or soldiers after a shooting. You don't understand until you've been there.

You make other statements like how you doubt he or anyone else could have chambered a round in a CRF rifle. How the heck do you know? Were you there? You are wrong. He told me he would have had time during a couple of different moments during the attack. At times, he was laying on his back and kicking at the bear with his feet and had the damn rifle pointed in the bears direction more than once but the rifle was screwed up. At other times, the bear was up near his shoulders trying to get at his head. What do you need, video of the attack?? My "rendition" and "second hand accounts" come from first hand information he tells me when I am with him TWICE a year when he hunts in Colorado with me and when I am with him in Alaska. Our families also spend time together at SCI. I also went and visited him in the hospital in Alaska when I heard about the incident after I was done guiding elsewhere in Alaska. Quit acting like you have insight into the incident and what should have happened. You have no clue what happened except the bits I have relayed.

He has guided hundreds of hunters (4 each spring and 4 each fall times 28 years is 232 hunts) on brown bear hunts in SE Alaska. It's funny how your limited experience and what your experienced friends from Alaska have told you carries more weight than what my friend and I say, as well as most African PHs. We have both been guiding since 1991 and I guide for six months each year. My first trip to the AK Peninsula was in 1998. I have had my share of close calls at extremely close range but nothing like his. I didn't second guess him, I learned from it. It's interesting how guys on this site will take it as Gospel when an African PH backs up the idea that a CRF rifle is best for DG, but nobody else with possibly even more experience matters. I stand by my statements as they come from 29 years guiding, seven trips to wild, free range concessions in Africa and from talking with dozens of other guides and PHs. I didn't do just two brown bear hunts and then do some talking. Yes, to each his own, indeed.

Well, you are being a bit touchy here. I never said nor implied your friend did one bloody thing wrong. I even complimented his quick thinking, which probably saved his life. You seem to have problem with logical and factual statements and/or questions based on the information from your expanding rendition of events. Your rendition is indeed secondhand information as you were NOT there, and I have not questioned your rendition of events in the slightest nor its accuracy. From other reports of bear attacks I’ve read it lines up. Having said that, the FACT is, in that kind of circumstance, a 8”-10” in length side arm in a large caliber would be a MUCH better option for self-defense against that bear, or any other critter or human for that matter, than a 40” plus inch rifle for any number of reasons. First, it doesn’t need to be cycled at all. Second, it can fire 5-15 times, depending on caliber/configuration, very quickly without reloading. Third, and probably more importantly, it is small enough to use even when the bear in on top you you, i.e. you can point it at vitals in that compromised position where you can’t with that long gun. That his rifle failed or didn’t fail, and I’m not doubting your word on that, based on the first two posts of your rendition of events where the bear was on top of your friend and going for his head and neck would in FACT render ANY rifle USELESS. He would not have been able to fire it at anything vital. My point was that in that position, he very well may have been able to point and fire a side arm. That IS NOT a criticism of him in any way, shape or form but rather a factual, logical evaluation of what would or would not work in the particular circumstance. IF you can’t acknowledge that, which was my ONLY “statement” about what transpired, then you aren’t being logical in your thinking nor evaluating the alternatives learnt from this experience. That one push feed rifle failed does NOT mean that ALL push feed rifles would have failed in his situation, again FACT. If you prefer control fed rifles, that’s a personal preference. I like and have both, have never had an issue with either, and they both do in FACT cycle while upside down and on your back.

 

[Tanks]

I
...I have said it before and will keep saying it till the day I die CRF are fallible just like any other feed just less so. ...

And I think that is the point of those that prefer CRF actions. Minimize the risk, nothing mechanical is infallible.

 

[Fastrig]

And I think that is the point of those that prefer CRF actions. Minimize the risk, nothing mechanical is infallible.

And another reason to never hunt alone. Your best defense is multiple trustworthy hunters with rifles, etc. if something goes south. Have a buddy back in California that goes off by himself in the Sierras deer hunting, always makes me cringe when he does. Too many bear and cougar in the high country, and I've run into both, but can't convince him to change his ways.

 

[crs]

Fastrig,
Ah, but the special moments you may be missing hunting in a group!

Like watching a cougar hunting deer just out of rifle range and then hearing it scream near dark to run them from a plum thicket mere yards from you, calling in a cougar when hunting wild turkey, calling in bobcats when using deer calls, having quail run over your boots when still hunting along a wooded creek bank, having a doe and fawn walk with in mere feet of you when scanning a valley for game, turning to eye to eye contact with a coyote sneaking up from behind (mutual surprise and standoff) . Plus many more.

I love to hunt birds with others and am not against hunting big game with others, but many of my most memorable moments have been when hunting alone.

One last solitary still hunting memory; On a still and quiet morning, having two Phantom jets silently appear on the deck at about 100 yards out! They were practicing supersonic LOW altitude runs. The sonic boom caused game to appear in three different directions!