.357 Magnum for bear defense

While the 41 is a fun caliber why not just go all the way to a .44mag? There are lot more bullets available both loaded and for reloading in the 44 than there are for the 41. And I have a .41 that I picked up for a song from a outfitter in southern Colorado just for the loaded ammo factor when he went to the .44.
 
Bear spray has a wonderful record of stopping false charges
When it's for real use a 44, and shoot it enough that you hit what your aiming at before going
 
I live and hunt across SW Alaska. We have a whole lot of browns. That said, I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch. I do have a couple of things I thought I'd share.

For my work, which sometimes takes me afield, I carry a Remington 870 Police Magnum. No, it's not a handgun, but it's what my company mandates I carry. We train with them, and I have complete confidence in it. I also have a 12 gauge I keep around camp when I'm camping/hunting, though mine's a Mossberg.

Normally, whenever I'm out, I'm hunting something, so I have my rifle with me at all times. As far as a handgun, I carry a .40 S&W loaded with 200 grain hardcast. As good as a really big thumper? No, and I don't claim it is. But it's light enough that I always have it with me and I'm never tempted to lay it aside (chest holster). I practice with it and feel very comfortable shooting it. Probably it's still very much only a "better than sticks or rocks option", but it's what I've done. I have a couple of buddies that carry the same thing, though different brands than mine.

Another thing to keep in mind: most problem bears are sows or sub-adults, not the behemoths that haunt our dreams with regards to hunting them.

I have one buddy that shot an aggressive boar one night, in a driving rain, in the pitch dark, in his boxers. (It's a great story; I was out of the tent and standing next to him after the first couple of shots) He killed it with a .44 mag and handloaded hardcast, thought I don't remember the specifics.

Rock on gentlemen. Find what works for you and practice, practice, practice. And hope it never comes to having to use those skills.
 
Haven't read through all the responses (so if this has been said my apology) but you'd be far better served with a Glock 20. Load it will 200 or 220 grain hard cast (yes, Glock does not recommend lead in their barrels but you'll be fine for the purpose as long as they stabilize...if not, put in an after market barrel for when carrying a magazine full of hard cast lead bullets). Underwood has good ammo if you don't reload (even if you do it's likely a better idea to carry factory ammo for self defense...if you want to shoot your own Beartooth has a good hard cast for 10mm).
 
Last edited:
I carry a .40 S&W loaded with 200 grain hardcast. it's light enough that I always have it with me and I'm never tempted to lay it aside



Great point. A survival expert (taught at the Air Force school) said regarding "survival kits". the more you have in it, the less likely you are to take it with you. AND Whatever you have in it, if/when you need the kit, it will not have everything that you want. So it is with protection handguns- a balance of portability and power is the goal.
 
CTDolan... Someday maybe there will be a 10mm in my arsenal; I've been happy enough with my .40s now (I have two). Currently I shoot the Double Tap 200 grain hardcast out of both. Both of my handguns shoot it well and I've never had a hiccup with it.
 
Ray B... I take the same approach with survival gear. I live in a rural hub community: air travel is the only way in or out. I always have my survival gear on my person - not in a bag.

But I digress... that's not really handgun related.
 
To summarize:
  • The common wisdom for stopping DG in Africa for the last 100 years has been that about 4,000 ft/lbs represent a safe minimum (i.e. 300 gr .375 H&H). 5,000 ft/lbs is markedly safer...
  • A healthy brown/grizzly bear can weigh 1,500+ lbs. For comparison, a Cape Buffalo weighs around 1,300 lbs. It makes sense to consider that the same type of stopping power is needed on grizz as is needed on buff...
  • The .357 and 10 mm deliver about the same power. Buffalo Bore 180 gr 10 mm ammo delivers 728 ft/lbs. Similar .357 loads deliver 750 ft/lbs. This is about 19% of the DG stopping threshold. Good luck!
  • The .41 Mag and .44 Mag are a big step forward. The .41 flies a lighter bullet faster, the .44 flies a heavier bullet slower, but both get to about 1,100 ft/lbs. This is a 50% increase over the power of a .357 / 10 mm but still only 28% of the DG stopping minimum. Again: Good luck!
  • Higher velocity .454 Casull 335 gr and .460 S&W 395 gr respectively deliver 1,800 ft/lbs and 2,000 ft/lbs. That gets us to 45% and 50% of the DG stopping minimum. Yet again: Good luck!
  • The .500 mag S&W loaded with 440 gr hard cast bullets from CorBon delivers 2,580 ft/lbs. This is more than double the .41 & .44 mag power but this is still only 65% of the DG stopping threshold. Still, luck will not hurt, but there is a fighting chance...
2,580 ft/lbs is not far from what a 30-06 delivers at the muzzle, so it is nothing to be sneezed at, and a .50 cal .440 gr flat nose bullet flying at 1,625 fps delivers quite a bunch of frontal area brunt force trauma... Is it enough to turn some or most charges? That is the gezillion $ question, isn't it?
  • Shotgun 1 3/8 oz 12 gauge slugs deliver at short range over 3,000 ft-lbs. This is yet a step up. Now we are at 75% of the DG stopping threshold. The odds start to get better...
I am not bashing the 10 mm Glock 20, this is my truck gun and general outdoors gun, and I recommend it. I am not bashing the 44 mag either, my S&W 629 Classic is one of my favorite wheel guns and it has killed a number of deer. But objectively the 10 mm and .44 mag, and anything in between or faster, are no DG stopper cartridges (operating word: stopper)... Sure a 9 mm 124 gr FMJ will kill a grizz (or a buff), but the question here is not killing, the question is stopping. As they keep saying down in Africa: "it is the dead ones that kill you"...

I used to carry a .44, but when it became available I upgraded to a .500 S&W for fly fishing in grizzly territory (Russian River on the Kenai Peninsula).

As previously stated, a friend fly fishing guide prefers a 12 gauge pump shotgun with a pistol grip loaded with Brenneke slugs, that he carries slung across his back. This makes a lot of sense. It is both more powerful and easier to shoot ... but it is also slower to deploy...
 
Last edited:
And, there is a minor thing of accuracy.

If first bullet doesn't hit in right spot on charging grizzly bear, following shots are necessary.
Shooting revolver in double action, fast and accurately is difficult. Shooting revolver carefully on single action, takes time, and some nerves in such situation.

Operating bolt action, lever action, or other repeater rifle may also take time, but at least - rifle is accurate, especially if compared to revolvers or pistols. (not to mention the energy)
And with this reasoning we are again approaching the idea of large caliber - stopping - double rifle... ehhh, nothing new under the sun.
 
I didn't know that carrying handguns was legal in Poland, cool.

The biggest lesson I learned hiking in grizzly county was don't surprise bears. I had a few close encounters then started making noises as I hiked, problem solved. If you give bears space most problems are avoided.

One tip with bear spray, it nasty. If you discharge it you will have a mess to clean up. An idea I picked up is to carry crushed ivory soap in a first aid kit. If someone gets a face full of bear spray the soap helps clean them up. I know a lot of people who have had it discharge because they dropped it on a sharp rock or whatever. Its good stuff, just treat it with respect.
 
Haven't read through all the responses (so if this has been said my apology) but you'd be far better served with a Glock 20. Load it will 200 or 220 grain hard cast (yes, Glock does not recommend lead in their barrels but you'll be fine for the purpose as long as they stabilize...if not, put in an after market barrel for when carrying a magazine full of hard cast lead bullets). Underwood has good ammo if you don't reload (even if you do it's likely a better idea to carry factory ammo for self defense...if you want to shoot your own Beartooth has a good hard cast for 10mm).
I put one of those aftermarket barrels on my Glock 20. KKM and it is sweet. I’ve ran Jacketed and cast and never had a problem it never hiccups they’re nice barrels.
 
I didn't know that carrying handguns was legal in Poland, cool.

The biggest lesson I learned hiking in grizzly county was don't surprise bears. I had a few close encounters then started making noises as I hiked, problem solved. If you give bears space most problems are avoided.

One tip with bear spray, it nasty. If you discharge it you will have a mess to clean up. An idea I picked up is to carry crushed ivory soap in a first aid kit. If someone gets a face full of bear spray the soap helps clean them up. I know a lot of people who have had it discharge because they dropped it on a sharp rock or whatever. Its good stuff, just treat it with respect.

Yes it’s legal, the regulations state you ought to carry concealed if possible. While there are no prescribed penalties for not doing so other than uniformed personnel I’ve never seen anyone open carry. Private firearm ownership in Poland is somewhat unusual so open carry by a civilian would attract a lot of attention. Due to decades of prohibitive laws we are one of the least armed nations in Europe. Things are improving in this regard since the laws changed in 2011. During the communism era legal gun ownership was pretty much impossible for regular folk and illegal possession was punishable by death, regimes don’t like people armed.

I have been on the receiving end of pepper spray once (accidental discharge by a stupid mate in my teens) so I do have a healthy dose of respect for bear spray. It was much unpleasant.
 
Last edited:
Recently I met a guy at my local shooting range who had an 8.4" barrel 460S&W revolver. I had a go and liked it. As luck would have it, one shop in Poland had a single 460 gun in stock, and it was the one I was interested in - a 3.5" barrel without a muzzle brake. So I bought it. Tomorrow I'll be shooting it for the first time. I know it'll have more recoil than the 8.4" version, which did have a muzzle brake, but I am curious just how much more. I wonder if I'll find it reasonably shootable and if it'll eventually replace my G20 or if it'll be a fun, curious, range gun only. Either way, I'm excited.

 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 10.18.59 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 10.18.59 AM.png
    660.6 KB · Views: 101
  • Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 10.19.02 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 10.19.02 AM.png
    553.4 KB · Views: 102
  • Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 10.19.04 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 10.19.04 AM.png
    5.4 MB · Views: 103
Bear spray has a wonderful record of stopping false charges
When it's for real use a 44, and shoot it enough that you hit what your aiming at before going
Riiightt... how much time do you think you have to decide whether or not it is a false charge?
 
To summarize:
  • The common wisdom for stopping DG in Africa for the last 100 years has been that about 4,000 ft/lbs represent a safe minimum (i.e. 300 gr .375 H&H). 5,000 ft/lbs is markedly safer...
  • A healthy brown/grizzly bear can weigh 1,500+ lbs. For comparison, a Cape Buffalo weighs around 1,300 lbs. It makes sense to consider that the same type of stopping power is needed on grizz as is needed on buff...
  • The .357 and 10 mm deliver about the same power. Buffalo Bore 180 gr 10 mm ammo delivers 728 ft/lbs. Similar .357 loads deliver 750 ft/lbs. This is about 19% of the DG stopping threshold. Good luck!
  • The .41 Mag and .44 Mag are a big step forward. The .41 flies a lighter bullet faster, the .44 flies a heavier bullet slower, but both get to about 1,100 ft/lbs. This is a 50% increase over the power of a .357 / 10 mm but still only 28% of the DG stopping minimum. Again: Good luck!
  • Higher velocity .454 Casull 335 gr and .460 S&W 395 gr respectively deliver 1,800 ft/lbs and 2,000 ft/lbs. That gets us to 45% and 50% of the DG stopping minimum. Yet again: Good luck!
  • The .500 mag S&W loaded with 440 gr hard cast bullets from CorBon delivers 2,580 ft/lbs. This is more than double the .41 & .44 mag power but this is still only 65% of the DG stopping threshold. Still, luck will not hurt, but there is a fighting chance...
2,580 ft/lbs is not far from what a 30-06 delivers at the muzzle, so it is nothing to be sneezed at, and a .50 cal .440 gr flat nose bullet flying at 1,625 fps delivers quite a bunch of frontal area brunt force trauma... Is it enough to turn some or most charges? That is the gezillion $ question, isn't it?
  • Shotgun 1 3/8 oz 12 gauge slugs deliver at short range over 3,000 ft-lbs. This is yet a step up. Now we are at 75% of the DG stopping threshold. The odds start to get better...
I am not bashing the 10 mm Glock 20, this is my truck gun and general outdoors gun, and I recommend it. I am not bashing the 44 mag either, my S&W 629 Classic is one of my favorite wheel guns and it has killed a number of deer. But objectively the 10 mm and .44 mag, and anything in between or faster, are no DG stopper cartridges (operating word: stopper)... Sure a 9 mm 124 gr FMJ will kill a grizz (or a buff), but the question here is not killing, the question is stopping. As they keep saying down in Africa: "it is the dead ones that kill you"...

I used to carry a .44, but when it became available I upgraded to a .500 S&W for fly fishing in grizzly territory (Russian River on the Kenai Peninsula).

As previously stated, a friend fly fishing guide prefers a 12 gauge pump shotgun with a pistol grip loaded with Brenneke slugs, that he carries slung across his back. This makes a lot of sense. It is both more powerful and easier to shoot ... but it is also slower to deploy...
When I was young I trapped with an old fellow who had spent all his life in grizzly country. He figured on average he had killed about a bear a year that needed killing, (as opposed to those hunted with clients) and most of the time he had used what was in his hand a 30-30 Winchester lever action. I asked him if he thought that was enough gun and he replied that if the bear rears up, shoot him in the center of the chest and he will be so sick he will give up the attack. If he is coming in, /just/ shoot him in the head. Same result.
 
Recently I met a guy at my local shooting range who had an 8.4" barrel 460S&W revolver. I had a go and liked it. As luck would have it, one shop in Poland had a single 460 gun in stock, and it was the one I was interested in - a 3.5" barrel without a muzzle brake. So I bought it. Tomorrow I'll be shooting it for the first time. I know it'll have more recoil than the 8.4" version, which did have a muzzle brake, but I am curious just how much more. I wonder if I'll find it reasonably shootable and if it'll eventually replace my G20 or if it'll be a fun, curious, range gun only. Either way, I'm excited.



I have the braked 4" 500 S&W, which will be more pleasant, I think... than that.

Start with weak low grain loads, doesn't necessarily have to be reduced recoil. But if you see ammo on the shelf and it goes from 200gr hollow points at 1500fps to 400 hardcast at 1800fps.

Buy yourself some of the 200gr to start with, get some of the 400s to have as well, but get those 200s to start with.

Next, don't load every chamber. Load every other so if you double fire you don't blow your head off, this has happened and has killed, also has happened and very very nearly killed people.

With those 200s you'll have some fun, enjoy getting to shoot it, then start working your way up to the full power heavy for caliber "stopper" style rounds.

I don't know the bullet weight range of the 460, in the 500 S&W it's really from 275gr to 700 grain.

The difference in recoil between the generic 300gr loads and my 440gr hardcasts is night and day, these full power hardcasts are like a grenade going off in your hand, the 300s were fun heavy recoil to shoot.

So, just realize that, start with some of the weaker loads, don't load back to back rounds at first, in case you double fire.
Then when you step up in power, and get bigger loads, go back to loading every other chamber so you don't double fire until you get used to them.

That being said, the recoil with full loads will be a beast, however, it will not kill you, what it will do is give you about as good a chance at stopping whatever it is as you could expect from a handgun.

This type of gun is really a, "plan for one shot, plan to be patient and make sure you hit with that one shot," type of gun, and if you hit, with that heavier for caliber solid, she'll take care of you.

But just focus on making that one shot count, this is a game of quality hits, not quantity of shots. Don't worry about the 5 shots you have, hit with that one and let that monster in your hand take care of that monster in front of you.


The more you shoot it the more you will be able to control it and the more fun you will have with it, don't be intimidated by the large recoil when you step up to heavier rounds, again, it isn't going to kill you, so work with it.
You won't be able to stop that recoil, don't lock your arms and wrists, work with it, a little bend in the arms, flex shoulder muscles to help control, but recoil, to a degree, with it.

similar'ish to shooting these big bore dangerous game rifles.

If you don't shoot it often then every time you pick it up you'll have forgotten that the recoil won't kill you, and that you can shoot it, and you'll flinch, and be uneasy and etc...

Shoot it often and you'll be fine, if you like some heavy recoil, you'll love it, they hit hard.

I carry my 500 S&W generally in a chest holster, had it on me yesterday while I felled several decent size trees alone, cut up some of those trees and others, I've built my shooting house with it on me, I musky fish with it on me.

That is to say, they can be carried and they can be carried even while doing very active work with your arms, chest, legs, etc...

This reply was way too long, but you should like it, if you have places that will port guns there, that may be an option too.
 
Next, don't load every chamber. Load every other so if you double fire you don't blow your head off, this has happened and has killed, also has happened and very very nearly killed people.

Thanks for all the advice.

I have a question though, how do you double a revolver? I’m scratching my head and can’t really figure out how one would do it.
 
Actually, I found the muzzle brake so obnoxious on mine (.500 3" + muzzle brake = 4.25" total) that I rotated it 180 degrees to close the upward vents. Thank God, S&W engineered this possibility in the gun! This tells me that I must not have been the only one finding the upward jet blast in the nose unpleasant... I am not observing any difference in recoil, but I do not get a headache anymore after a few shots...

I use maximum factory load Corbon 440 gr Hard Cast and carry it on the hip while fly fishing in Grizzly Bear territory. Here under on the Russian River in the Kenai Peninsula in Alaska...

A quality leather holster and a quality belt will make it feel no more obtrusive than a .38...

1623098931450.jpeg


1623098804356.jpeg


Double firing occasionally happens, Opposite Pole, with people "limp wrist-ing" the revolver, which allows enough recoil and upward tilt that when the revolver comes back down while they are still clenching the trigger they actually trigger a second shot. A mild case of this can also result in not shooting a second shot but pressing enough the trigger to start rotating the cylinder, which results in skipping a chamber if the hammer is cocked manually for the next shot. I saw a friend of mine actually do that almost every time he fired my .44 S&W pictured in my earlier post.

As mentioned by calling4life, beware the recoil! A few folks wear a nice scar imprinted in their forehead where the front sight buried itself... However, contrarily to calling4life's advice to "don't lock your arms and wrists, work with it, a little bend in the arms" I would advise to keep your elbows and wrists very stiffly locked when you shoot, and to allow the recoil to rotate your shoulders up, not your wrist or elbows, this way you are at no risk the be hit in the face. This also absolutely precludes double firing caused by flexing the wrist as explained above. As usual, to each own :)

This being said, just like with heavy recoil scoped DG rifles, you will get used to it :)
 
Last edited:
Actually, I found the muzzle brake so obnoxious on mine (.500 3" + muzzle brake = 4.25" total) that I rotated it 180 degrees to close the upward vents. Thank God, S&W engineered this possibility in the gun! This tells me that I must not have been the only one finding the upward jet blast in the nose unpleasant... I am not observing any difference in recoil, but I do not get a headache anymore after a few shots...

I use maximum factory load Corbon 440 gr Hard Cast and carry it on the hip while fly fishing in Grizzly Bear territory. Here under on the Russian River in the Kenai Peninsula in Alaska...

A quality leather holster and a quality belt will make it feel no more obtrusive than a .38...

View attachment 405946

View attachment 405945

Double firing occasionally happens, Opposite Pole, with people "limp wrist-ing" the revolver, which allows enough recoil and upward tilt that when the revolver comes back down while they are still clenching the trigger they actually trigger a second shot. A mild case of this can also result in not shooting a second shot but pressing enough the trigger to start rotating the cylinder, which results in skipping a chamber if the hammer is cocked manually for the next shot. I saw a friend of mine actually do that almost every time he fired my .44 S&W pictured in my earlier post.

As mentioned by calling4life, beware the recoil! A few folks wear a nice scar imprinted in their forehead where the front sight buried itself... However, contrarily to calling4life's advice to "don't lock your arms and wrists, work with it, a little bend in the arms" I would advise to keep your elbows and wrists very stiffly locked when you shoot, and to allow the recoil to rotate your shoulders up, not your wrist or elbows, this way you are at no risk the be hit in the face. This also absolutely precludes double firing caused by flexing the wrist as explained above. As usual, to each own :)

This being said, just like with heavy recoil scoped DG rifles, you will get used to it :)
I'm more interested in where you are fly fishing than the cannon on your hip! I might have to plan a trip to the russian river now!
 
a sidearm is better than nothing but i would DREAD the day i had to use the 44 mag i carry in bear territory. they can cover 100 yards in 6 seconds, gents. their brains are the size of an orange. still i carry mine even when im toting my trusty 416 rem mag. i carry buffalo bore hardcast bullets for the 44. the heavier the better. but only shoot at that bear if it has ill intentions. give it a minute to decide what to do. if it truly comes for you, keep firing keep firing keep firing. for your 357, dont think that you are bear proof with it. i just want to make that point. i am a fan of the heaviest buffalo bore catrridges available for a sidearm in ursus country.
16CE6BF5-0CBC-4286-A705-84C796613572.jpeg
 

Forum statistics

Threads
53,626
Messages
1,131,453
Members
92,687
Latest member
JohnT3006
 

 

 

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Impact shots from the last hunt

Early morning Impala hunt, previous link was wrong video

Headshot on jackal this morning

Mature Eland Bull taken in Tanzania, at 100 yards, with 375 H&H, 300gr, Federal Premium Expanding bullet.

20231012_145809~2.jpg
 
Top