REPORT: My recent experience with Karoo Taxidermy

we used karoo for a hunt in 2013 and couldn't be more pleased with the service and quality. the people we delt with were of great help through out the whole process and with all the screws we pulled out of our wooden crate we could have built a small deck. we plan on using them again.
Wow, I wonder why they shipped ours in cheap cardboard, no screws, I think there may have been tape though. I am just passing along the information to possibly spare one of our hunting friends a stressful post safari experience. take it for what it's worth. Good Hunting!
 
Dear All
I am Tim van Heerden and I am the Marketing Manager of Karoo Taxidermy.
Please allow me to respond on Bill Thompson's recent experience with Karoo Taxidermy.
I can only look at the facts in front of me:

  • Bill bought a donated hunt at a Chapter show which included a $1000 taxidermy credit - T's & C's: not applicable on any Dip & Pack order, Part Dip & Pack/Taxidermy order, etc.
  • I can not find any request on email from either client that their trophies should be packed together in a single crate.
  • I do have the Client Information Sheet that Bill's hunting buddy completed and emailed to my client liaison - the Trophy Consolidation part (which is very clearly and in layman's terms described) on this document was left blank.
  • The Client Information Sheet does refer to the tags left at Karoo Taxidermy, with shipping information on it - being the clearing agent details and the US Taxidermy's details. (I do have a couple of tags left for Bill in his client file)
  • If the tags were omitted to be placed on Bill's trophies, for this I do apologise. Laminated trophy tags are put on the trophies just before shipping as they do no last during our trophy cleaning and preparation process.
  • All trophies (skins, skulls and horns) are marked with a livestock tag with a client's order number on - the only fail-safe method to ensure a client gets his own trophies back. These tags withstands our entire cleaning and preparation process.
  • The consignment was tagged with Karoo Taxidermy's shipping labels that indicated the Owner of the trophies, the Clearing Agent's details, the Taxidermist's details as well as Bill's Order number.
  • The trophies was send to the correct clearing agent in New York, a clearing agent that Bill or his taxidermist appointed, and at the end of the day, the trophies arrived at the correct taxidermist.
  • Karoo Taxidermy uses a sturdy, standardised cardboard box to export Dip & Pack trophies in. This is the industry standard for Dip & Pack and by far the majority of Taxidermists uses these boxes to ship raw plains game in. Pachyderms and giraffe do require wooden crates.
  • When a client's trophies are to many for one of these Dip & Pack boxes, a second, third or fourth box will be used.
  • Boxes are made smaller if a client have few trophies
  • Both clients had too many trophies to fit in a single box, hence the use of a second box for each client.
  • Bills' hunting buddy's export permits were received about a month before Bill's export permits were received from the government. Hence his trophies was shipped in November 2014 and Bill's only in December 2014.
  • Bill mentions above that the total shipping bill came to $5,500. The International Shipping Costs BOTH client's were billed for was $2,336 INCLUDING INSURANCE (insurance to the value of ZAR 160,000).
  • This gives me $3,164 for the clearance and delivery from Clearing Agent (whom Bill pointed) in New York to the taxidermist in Clarkston, MI. This invoice/check I have not seen.
  • When I queried Bill's initial email with this clearing agent (querying if packed together there would have been a significant cost saving), I am still awaiting a reply from them.
  • I am contesting Bills claim above that I had little to say about the matter. Please find below my response to his first email regarding the issue (3rd party names have been blanked out for obvious reasons):
        • Dear Messrs Thompson and XXXX
          Your recent emails to info@karootaxidermy.com refers:
          Firstly, XXXXX, please find below the reply dated November 10, 2014 Nikita sent you on your attached mail.
          Then there is a common misconception that packing raw (dip & pack) trophies together save you on shipping
          fees. That might well be the case in terms of mounted trophies. When we pack and crate our taxidermy mounted
          trophies, the smaller trophies fit into the void spaces around the bigger trophies. Your smaller trophies therefore
          ship for free so to speak.

          We use sturdy one size cardboard boxes to ship our dip & Pack trophies. Their size is
          approximately H: 19” X L:43” X W:27”. The height is adjustable to a maximum of approximately 30”.
          Cardboard boxed are much lighter than wooden crates and herein lies already a considerable saving shipping wise.
          Horns, skulls and hides are packed in such a manner to effectively use space with very little, if any void space in
          the boxes. In order to optimize space in your box, most of the trophies’ hornpipes are detached from the skulls.

          This optimisation of space also secure your trophies inside the box and prevents the contents from damaging each other.
          The only instance where you would have had a slight advantage in packing your trophies together, is if you both only had
          a few small trophies shipped.

          The reason why your trophies was shipped in more than one box is simply that it could not all fit into one box. The reason
          why your trophies was not packed together is that it does not make sense to mix the trophies if multiple boxes are required
          in any case. Dip & Pack trophies is charged by either the actual weight or the volumetric weight, which ever is the greatest.

          And I want to guarantee you if we put all your trophies mixed into one box we would have come to virtually the same actual
          and volumetric weights. And if we packed it in a single wooden crate, it would have weighed much more – with an obvious
          increase in cost.

          With regards to the cost involved of your shipment, I had a look a the volume of trophies shipped versus the invoice amounts
          from xxxxx Freight and I must say that it is not out of line. If I compare it to my shipping estimates I normally give clients,
          yours is about $200 less.

          Over the clearance fees and delivery charges of XXXXXXXXX I have no control unfortunately. You appointed them at the
          start of the process and we assume you have a working relationship with them. I do suggest in future that you ship your trophies
          to your closest port of entry, in your case Chicago, in order to avoid exorbitant transportation costs from the port of
          entry to your taxidermist.


          I trust you find my explanation satisfactory.

          Sincerely yours,
          Tim
  • (I have now highlighted in RED a very important fact applicable to all international hunters should know)
  • After Bill's emotional reply on this email of mine and the reply of his hunting buddy threatening me to go viral about this, I decided not to go into further deliberation about this.
  • Once Bill informed me about the Caracal Skull I did request him to forward me photographs in order for me to resolve that issue. I have yet to receive these photos.
Karoo Taxidermy strives to deliver a quality product at a competitive price topped with great service, and to keep total costs in our control to a minimum to all clients. This is what makes clients return year after year to Africa, to South Africa and to Karoo Taxidermy. Fortunately we satisfy most of our clients - our ultimate constituency.

I thank you AfricaHunting.com for allowing us to state our point of view.

Sincerely yours,
Tim van Heerden

In response to Tim's Reply,

1) The reason I choose not to use the $1,000 taxidermy voucher was after I toured the facility I was not very impressed with the taxidermy work. I was informed by my outfitter they do good dip & pack work.
2) We informed Nakita to make sure our trophies were combined, as much as possible and ship together. This was not done and it ended up costing us more money. Tim's points out that our client sheet is not filled out properly. Nice trying to blame the customer for your companies short falls.
3) Our 2011 trip we used the same outfitter (Eastern Cape), American taxidermist (currently same location), same agent (same port of entry), an Eastern Cape Dip & Pack Company. Of which our taxidermist, import agent & Dip & Pack said to combine trophies (as much as possible) and ship together. We did exactly that and it cost us approx. $3,000 (in 2 wooden crates affixed together). We made the same request to Nakita during our tour of the facility. She assured us it would be handled. It wasn't and our total bill was approx. $5,500. Prior to today response Tim has never ask to view our invoices.
4) Tim does nothing but point the blame to the client & import agent. Nice tactic.
5) Tim says he is following up checking on shipping cost but his reply says otherwise,
Dear Bill
You received my reply on the 8th of January. I have been involved in taxidermy and arranged the shipping, clearance and delivery thereof for the last 12 years. Your subsequent reply was therefore insulting and I have no intention of getting into any further deliberation with you in this regard. Tim
6) The above was received after I sent emails asking for a response on Jan 8th, Feb 12th and finally replied Feb 13th (24 days later). You decide if this is good customer service?
7) Tim asked for pictures of my crushed caracal skull in the same email that he states he will not go into further deliberation on the first issue. Why should I waste my time sending pictures when you didn't resolve the first issue. Can Karoo get me the same caracal skull?

Bill Thompson
Forever a hunter & Never again a Karoo Customer.
 
Hi Bill, welcome to the forum. Could you PM me and tell me who your clearing agent was?. I am making my first trip to Africa in September and have hired an agent. I want to make sure it's not the same people other wise I will need to contact them.

Fauna & Flora. Jamiaca, NY. There are other companies depending on where you live. I know Chicago & LA have some as well. No experience with either.

Bill Thompson
 
Bluey,
Ask how many of their cardboard boxes they are using? The freight is where we incurred the increase because they shipped our trophies in four small cardboard boxes separately. I also toured their warehouse and was far from impressed, so much in that we left a $1,000.00 taxidermy voucher there unused. I can tell from your post that you haven't received your trophies home yet, once you do, let us all know how that turned out, please. Good Luck Hunting!

when we were touring karoo taxidermy . we we seen a shipment of mounted heads being packed , in fact when l ask about my lioness posed in a lying down mount , frank and nikita took me out to show a bueatifull lioness pose that was being packed as we had a little look see , there was a lion as well ,and quite few plains game been wrapped and packed in the same wooden crate.
l remember saying how well they were being wrapped and how sturdy the crate was ......
as for walking around the facility , our outfitter was with us , and believe me he was pointing out many little things to look for in quality taxidermy , and all he kept saying was , see how this is finished and have a look at the way the taxidermist has gone on to make this look more realistic , everything was positive that young roy was pointing out .
my wife who made and painted porcelion dools , and has an eye for detail was looking hard at many completed and work in progress , mounts , and was delighted at what she seen .
when l typed to nikita yesterday about the progress , she answered quickly ( with in 5 hours ) and theres a 10 hour time difference
the only thing l havnt been impressed about , is the air freight , which im looking at sea freight once im paid up and the cites is complete ( my end ) but in our crate there will be
a full mount lioness ,and base , along with skull
a pedestal mount giraffe , with all four shin bone , a front and back hoof mount ( as book ends) the back skin ,and skull, plus a hand bag
black and blue wilde beast , shoulder mounts (with back skins) and tails made into swtches
impala skull mount ( with flat skin)
mountain reed buck shoulder mount
white and common blessies as shoulder mounts
zebra shoulder mount , with back skin , plus a handbag
black and common spring boks in shoulder mounts
steen bok , wall pedestal mount
plus warthog tusks, springbok horns and kudu horns, all pickups from dead heads we encounted along the adventure .
so it gunna be a fair sized crate,and the airfreight is going to be more than l expected ,that's why im going to look at sea freight .
and you can rest assured l will be posting pictures once they arrive , to finish of the thread l started about our adventure .

hope you guys can work out a civil and happy ending with karoo........

and welcome to AH tim, look foreward to karoo taxidermy "s involvement on here .
 
when we were touring karoo taxidermy . we we seen a shipment of mounted heads being packed , in fact when l ask about my lioness posed in a lying down mount , frank and nikita took me out to show a bueatifull lioness pose that was being packed as we had a little look see , there was a lion as well ,and quite few plains game been wrapped and packed in the same wooden crate.
l remember saying how well they were being wrapped and how sturdy the crate was ......
as for walking around the facility , our outfitter was with us , and believe me he was pointing out many little things to look for in quality taxidermy , and all he kept saying was , see how this is finished and have a look at the way the taxidermist has gone on to make this look more realistic , everything was positive that young roy was pointing out .
my wife who made and painted porcelion dools , and has an eye for detail was looking hard at many completed and work in progress , mounts , and was delighted at what she seen .
when l typed to nikita yesterday about the progress , she answered quickly ( with in 5 hours ) and theres a 10 hour time difference
the only thing l havnt been impressed about , is the air freight , which im looking at sea freight once im paid up and the cites is complete ( my end ) but in our crate there will be
a full mount lioness ,and base , along with skull
a pedestal mount giraffe , with all four shin bone , a front and back hoof mount ( as book ends) the back skin ,and skull, plus a hand bag
black and blue wilde beast , shoulder mounts (with back skins) and tails made into swtches
impala skull mount ( with flat skin)
mountain reed buck shoulder mount
white and common blessies as shoulder mounts
zebra shoulder mount , with back skin , plus a handbag
black and common spring boks in shoulder mounts
steen bok , wall pedestal mount
plus warthog tusks, springbok horns and kudu horns, all pickups from dead heads we encounted along the adventure .
so it gunna be a fair sized crate,and the airfreight is going to be more than l expected ,that's why im going to look at sea freight .
and you can rest assured l will be posting pictures once they arrive , to finish of the thread l started about our adventure .

hope you guys can work out a civil and happy ending with karoo........

and welcome to AH tim, look foreward to karoo taxidermy "s involvement on here .


With all of that I can understand why you are looking at ocean freight.:eek: Certainly looking forward to seeing the photos when you receive the shipment.(y)
 
Hey Bluey. That sounds like a bunch of great animals to look forward to. We'll be excited to see pics after they arrive. Bruce
 
I have had my African trophy's shipped to me in two categories. One having some completed mounts and two, some raw. Also, I have had my trophy's shipped from different African countries.

When i arrive back in the states, i call my importer and taxidermist and provide a list of what i will be having shipped. I provide the African dip and pack and shipper the e-mail addresses of my importer and taxidermist. That way every one is in the loop as to what is going on.

With the help of my importer and taxidermist, My trophy's have been shipped in plywood boxes. Many screws to hold the box's together, and sometimes a few bolts.

My trophy's have been shipped in one or 2 crates depending on the number of trophy's taken and the work being performed.

I did not read the the trophy list by hunter. Some Africa trophy's will need a permit and i am not sure if any trophy's taken fall into this area. The paperwork for each hunter would need to match the trophy's placed in each crate. I have also read that some combined trophy shipments have been seized by customs and the USF&G, for the paperwork not matching. By Karoo Taxidermy placing the clients trophies in their own crates, may have been in the clients best interest.

From what i am reading in this post, If a customer(s) fails to properly fill out the paperwork, and specifying what is wanted that runs up a big flag. The two customers when arriving in the States had the time to review and go over the paperwork and make changes prior to shipping. (I know, i have many e-mail chats and a phone call(s) at times to make sure everything is covered)

I also have time to review my shipping notification and bill(s) to make sure my crate(s) is going the right direction and destination and how the trophy's are being packed. I am sure the two posters had the same time to review the documents and make changes if necessary.

As for Karoo Taxidermy, if an up grade in shipping was not specified by the clients, the default would be the the standard form of shipping that they provide. Price wise, i did not see anything out of line with the amount for their services. I thought it was a little odd that the two clients did not break down the billing as Karoo did.
 
Welcome to AH Bill. Sorry to hear of your problem with Karoo. Like Marius said I would also like Karoo to join in this discussion, I have been using them for 8 years without issue.


Please invite them to join and provide some feedback.
 
I have had my African trophy's shipped to me in two categories. One having some completed mounts and two, some raw. Also, I have had my trophy's shipped from different African countries.

When i arrive back in the states, i call my importer and taxidermist and provide a list of what i will be having shipped. I provide the African dip and pack and shipper the e-mail addresses of my importer and taxidermist. That way every one is in the loop as to what is going on.

With the help of my importer and taxidermist, My trophy's have been shipped in plywood boxes. Many screws to hold the box's together, and sometimes a few bolts.

My trophy's have been shipped in one or 2 crates depending on the number of trophy's taken and the work being performed.

I did not read the the trophy list by hunter. Some Africa trophy's will need a permit and i am not sure if any trophy's taken fall into this area. The paperwork for each hunter would need to match the trophy's placed in each crate. I have also read that some combined trophy shipments have been seized by customs and the USF&G, for the paperwork not matching. By Karoo Taxidermy placing the clients trophies in their own crates, may have been in the clients best interest.

From what i am reading in this post, If a customer(s) fails to properly fill out the paperwork, and specifying what is wanted that runs up a big flag. The two customers when arriving in the States had the time to review and go over the paperwork and make changes prior to shipping. (I know, i have many e-mail chats and a phone call(s) at times to make sure everything is covered)

I also have time to review my shipping notification and bill(s) to make sure my crate(s) is going the right direction and destination and how the trophy's are being packed. I am sure the two posters had the same time to review the documents and make changes if necessary.

As for Karoo Taxidermy, if an up grade in shipping was not specified by the clients, the default would be the the standard form of shipping that they provide. Price wise, i did not see anything out of line with the amount for their services. I thought it was a little odd that the two clients did not break down the billing as Karoo did.

James,

Thank you for reply. This is not my first time in Africa. My first trip I used all the same outfitter, import agent, and American taxidermist with zero problems. The Dip & Pack company we used moved their operation out of South Africa so we used Karoo. The facts are we both requested that our trophies be handled a certain way, they ignored our request and it cost us nearly double for much smaller trophies. Not to mention my Caracal skull was crushed. Some of your points are relevant to the conversation but us not including a breakdown of costs has nothing to do with them not following our request. I strongly feel when you do business with someone you expect a good product or service. We have not here and this is not our doing.
 
Not to mention my Caracal skull was crushed..

Due to the fragile bone structure on smaller animals some times they sustain some damage. I have had skulls damages in transit, (for euro mounts) however the taxidermist was able to rebuild them and you cannot tell that they were damaged.
 
Following a clients instructions is the goal.
Unless, it is illegal or there are other real policy reasons for not doing so.

...and if it is the case. The service provider had better inform the client beforehand so the client can make some choices.
Not get a surprise.

I have been trying to find something about this "combining trophies" concept to reduce costs.
My understanding is that to US destinations it was no longer acceptable to do so.
Everyone had to have their own crate and trophies needed to be imported under each individuals name.
USFWS apparently wanting to ensure their statistics were valid (not that increasing costs to hunters was the goal)


@Robert????? Any input here?


A couple of sources of opinion from dip and pack and import:

"Ok, what’s a consolidation?
When an agent tenders many different shippers freight as one shipment to the airline they do so on what is called a Master Bill of Lading. Each individual’s shipment is moved on what is called a House Bill of Lading. The air carrier is supposed to move these consolidations as booked and this is done in a perfect world. However, carriers determine the load capabilities for each flight on the tarmac. Affecting the capacity is passenger load; live animals, temperature, fuel constraints; perishables and mail, all of which take precedence over freight. Therefore MAWB’s are often broken down from the originally tendered number of packages. The carrier will move the remaining freight on various flights to destination until all of it is received at the port of destination.

Every hunter must now be packed in his or her own carton/box/crate for CBP/AMS reporting purposes. There needs to be one single Importer of Record due to ACS system limitations, which only allow for the submission of a single ultimate consignee per each piece count. Some ports will allow multiple hunters packed in one crate, but most will NOT. We do NOT recommend comingling shipments. If there is a problem with one of the hunters, all are detained."




"Only one hunter’s trophies per crate:

Clients often request their Hunting Outfitters to combine two, or more, clients’ trophies onto one PH Register. Not only is this illegal to do, but it can land you in serious trouble. Should you as PH / Outfitter allow such practice, you can be held responsible for submitting false / fraudulent information, as you have signed the PH Register. According to the Lacey Act in America, it is a violation of law to complete / submit such false documentation.

If you are a US citizen and you are about to board a plane for a hunt, or safari, anywhere in the world, be aware that the US Fish and Wildlife Service has begun to crack down on a very Common practice hunters use to save money on trophy shipments. That practice is the Consolidation of more than one hunter’s trophies under a single register and/or hunting Permit.

The Service says the practice distorts their statistics and prevents them from obtaining a clear picture of who is hunting and importing what around the world. To put an end to it, the Service has vowed to block all consolidated trophy shipments it detects, allowing only the Trophies of the person whose name appears on the register and/or permit to go through. All of the other trophies will have to be sent back to the country of origin for re-export. If that is not possible, or the hunter elects not to do it, the trophies will be seized.

All hunters must be identified by their full given name, as it appears on their passport, which hopefully is the same as their birth certificate and social security card, on all documents; period!."
 
Due to the fragile bone structure on smaller animals some times they sustain some damage. I have had skulls damages in transit, (for euro mounts) however the taxidermist was able to rebuild them and you cannot tell that they were damaged.

I would have some serious questions about the packing job at that point. Cracked is one thing. Crushed is another.
 
Due to the fragile bone structure on smaller animals some times they sustain some damage. I have had skulls damages in transit, (for euro mounts) however the taxidermist was able to rebuild them and you cannot tell that they were damaged.

James,

My American Taxidermist is currently in the process of trying to rebuild with what he has. There are several small pieces that he cannot piece back together. Someone else commented that is may be due to over boiling during the cleaning. My taxidermist said that it was over boiling or not being packed properly.
 
I would have some serious questions about the packing job at that point. Cracked is one thing. Crushed is another.

pictures would be nice...

I was bushbuck was damaged to the extent that initially a horn mount would be all that would be available. However the repairman was able to rebuild with (i think) fiberglass the entire portion that was damaged.

Looking at my skulls, the pieces could be put back together if they were broken.
 
I have boiled quite a few skulls myself and some of the more dainty one can almost just dissolve when you have them in the water too long. I gave up doing it to any ring tail cats that I get and just ship them off to Skulls Unlimited to have them take care of.
 
Following a clients instructions is the goal.
Unless, it is illegal or there are other real policy reasons for not doing so.

...and if it is the case. The service provider had better inform the client beforehand so the client can make some choices.
Not get a surprise.

I have been trying to find something about this "combining trophies" concept to reduce costs.
My understanding is that to US destinations it was no longer acceptable to do so.
Everyone had to have their own crate and trophies needed to be imported under each individuals name.
USFWS apparently wanting to ensure their statistics were valid (not that increasing costs to hunters was the goal)


@Robert????? Any input here?


A couple of sources of opinion from dip and pack and import:

"Ok, what’s a consolidation?
When an agent tenders many different shippers freight as one shipment to the airline they do so on what is called a Master Bill of Lading. Each individual’s shipment is moved on what is called a House Bill of Lading. The air carrier is supposed to move these consolidations as booked and this is done in a perfect world. However, carriers determine the load capabilities for each flight on the tarmac. Affecting the capacity is passenger load; live animals, temperature, fuel constraints; perishables and mail, all of which take precedence over freight. Therefore MAWB’s are often broken down from the originally tendered number of packages. The carrier will move the remaining freight on various flights to destination until all of it is received at the port of destination.

Every hunter must now be packed in his or her own carton/box/crate for CBP/AMS reporting purposes. There needs to be one single Importer of Record due to ACS system limitations, which only allow for the submission of a single ultimate consignee per each piece count. Some ports will allow multiple hunters packed in one crate, but most will NOT. We do NOT recommend comingling shipments. If there is a problem with one of the hunters, all are detained."




"Only one hunter’s trophies per crate:

Clients often request their Hunting Outfitters to combine two, or more, clients’ trophies onto one PH Register. Not only is this illegal to do, but it can land you in serious trouble. Should you as PH / Outfitter allow such practice, you can be held responsible for submitting false / fraudulent information, as you have signed the PH Register. According to the Lacey Act in America, it is a violation of law to complete / submit such false documentation.

If you are a US citizen and you are about to board a plane for a hunt, or safari, anywhere in the world, be aware that the US Fish and Wildlife Service has begun to crack down on a very Common practice hunters use to save money on trophy shipments. That practice is the Consolidation of more than one hunter’s trophies under a single register and/or hunting Permit.

The Service says the practice distorts their statistics and prevents them from obtaining a clear picture of who is hunting and importing what around the world. To put an end to it, the Service has vowed to block all consolidated trophy shipments it detects, allowing only the Trophies of the person whose name appears on the register and/or permit to go through. All of the other trophies will have to be sent back to the country of origin for re-export. If that is not possible, or the hunter elects not to do it, the trophies will be seized.

All hunters must be identified by their full given name, as it appears on their passport, which hopefully is the same as their birth certificate and social security card, on all documents; period!."


Brickburn,

In 2011 we shot 16 animals (mostly large animals). Our Dip & Pack Agent shipped all including backskins, etc to us in 2 wooden crates affixed together (shipped in separate crates affixed together). Our total bill from the Eastern Cape to our taxidermist was approx. $3,000.

Karoo sent 4 cardboard boxes (2 each) in 2 separate shipments to our taxidermists. approx. $5,500.

Karoo informed me that shipments are based on weight or volumetric weight. My 2011 wood crate contained eland, wildebeest, kudu, Zebra, gemsbok, bushbuck, impala & springbuck (5 Large animals, 3 small). Cost $3,000 to my hometown.

2014 shipment in cardboard boxes was Kudu, Zebra, Nyala, Hyena, Springbuck 2, warthog, steenbuck, caracal (3 large, 5 small). Cost $5,500 to my hometown.

Houston there is a problem.
 
Bill, do you still have copies of the weigh bills from all those shipments?
I would be interested to see what charges, rates, surcharges, etc. and weights/vol weights were on them all.
Routing of the flights, etc was.

(Shipping: The most misunderstood area of the whole Safari with the most surprises and misunderstandings)

Was there any reasoning behind the multiple boxes/crates being sent?
 

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