Your opinion on selecting a .500 NE 3” or .470 NE?

[rookhawk]

With my 470NE handloads, I get recoil down to 58lbs of felt recoil for a full, cordite-equivelant load. That's exactly what a 458WM outputs on the average.

It's a great compromise between a caliber that absolutely will kill elephants with a body shot and that is enjoyable and effective on Buffalo, Hippo, etc.

Would a 450/400 be a milder buffalo gun? Yes, about 42lbs of felt recoil, but a 450/400 is a marginal elephant gun and not suited for the frequent elephant hunter the way the 470NE is.

If you want to a hunt a lot of elephant, its probably best to eschew both the 470 and 500, going to a 577NE for regular elephant work and a 450/400 or 404J for buffalo.

What you pick isn't just the game, its also what your other rifle is so you can make sane judgements on what you're missing in your battery.

 

[SStomcat]

Between the 470 and 500, I’d choose the 450NE. lol.

I’m admittedly presently in my 450NE fanboy phase, and it made my 470 appear redundant as I get same ballistics (actually slightly better) with 500gr bullets as I did with the 470 and superior sectional density for penetration. After hearing Kevin Robertson discuss his experiences with 470’s over the years and preferences for clients shooting them to avoid front brain shots on ele’s, it got me nerding out on sectional density comparisons. He really keys in on it in several discussions in few podcasts, and has preference for the 450NE or 500NE. I’m not going to argue with the man, he’s certainly not an armchair expert or internet hero, he’s guided a client or two and examined a wound channel or few in his years, so I took a little of it as grains of wisdom. We all have opinions and feelings on guns and calibers, as we should, but there are some out there that have amassed a level of first-hand experience that’s hard to argue with. And enjoy his anecdotal accounts of his friends Heym 88b in 450NE shooting Northfork solids diagonally through elephants for a living. Some guys have all the fun.

Doctari speaks, I listen. Same for our esteemed @Hunter-Habib. We can speak our opinions and we should, but maintain the ability to recognize wisdom as well when it’s shared.

I also just traded out my 88b 470 for the same in 500. Hoping to see a package from JJ within the next couple weeks.

End of the day, we aren’t PH’s, we aren’t ivory hunters where we might have the opportunity to experience a frontal brain shots on the regular…which brings so much of this discussion to Ford/Chevy/Dodge (well, maybe not Dodge)…shoot what you like. Carry what makes you happy. We should feel cool and confident in what drive and shoot.

And think 600NE may be like big ocean boats and airplanes. What’s better than owning one, having a friend that does. Hunter-Habib, when you get that dream Heym 600, I’d enjoy an invitation to travel over and shoot it.

And for the 600 ne and 700 ne, you may need an additional accessory: a gunbearer.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

smashing your middle finger on the back of the trigger guard. sounds like you need to explore your rifles length of pull

I get this too, and quickly developed muscle memory of how to wrap my hand to minimize. I wear xxl gloves in most, so think it’s a geometry of the grip more than LOP, at least for me. I do need to get a couple of the rubber bumps. The more open grip style of the 89B and 2010-ish forward 88b’s are much better for my larger hands than earlier 88b’s.

 

[Pondoro]

Since the Mahajarah of Rewa is mentioned..this is a Holland & Holland Royal ejector in .600 ordered by him in 1921.. It is perfectly balanced with 25" barrels and weigh in at 16lbs 2oz. It is a joy to shoot (regrettably its not mine). It is regulated for the 110 grain cordite load and gave 1900fps with modern Kynoch softs.. The moonsight is a gold encrusted diamond..

The Mahajarah also owned a Jeffery .600..


Me..I would gladly choose it as a stopping rifle..

 

[Tintin]

Yes, I did two searches and did not find results. Maybe I used the wrong search wording, same as in the title.

As perviously mentioned on AH, a useful 'trick' for searching AH, or any website, is a Google 'site' search.

SImply type into your browser

site: followed by the website address, a space, and then your search term

eg

site:africahunting.com .500 NE 3” or .470 NE

 

[Wildwillalaska]

And for the 600 ne and 700 ne, you may need an additional accessory: a gunbearer.

I’ll make it official, public, @Hunter-Habib, when you get the 600 Heym, I’ll be your gun bearer. I’ll bring a lighter but still proper caliber as back up.

Presently, I don’t mind carrying a heavy rifle…I make regular time to lift stupid heavy things for fun and health anyway. But I also hope to have another 25-35 years of African adventures ahead me…while that higher number is admittedly ambitious, a boy can dream. If I’m fortunate for that to prove true, I certainly expect my desire for heavier rifles for caliber may dwindle. I suspect I will also begin to enjoy the handiness in more delicately-proportioned doubles in cartridges of proven effect and comfort, such as the 375, 9.3x74 and 450/400. (Hell, to make @SStomcat grin a bit, I’ll also publicly admit I might even try out one of those K-Contraptions he adores so if I found the right one in a sub-bore…just don’t expect me to join your Heym bash crusade…can’t…wouldn’t be accurate or even remotely honest to my experiences). Knowing myself, even a much more advanced age self, to the extent possible, I’d still yearn for fire and fury of something like the 500 or larger and visual pleasure of seeing the effect of a well placed shot on an old dugga boy.

I can only hope to live and hunt long enough to regularly enjoy having a dedicated gunbearer along for the adventure. For those men who commissioned and hunted the 600ne’s of years past, I don’t think the idea of needing a gunbearer even played into the equation…more of a given. Have to expect the hunting outfits such gents would frequent were as bespoke as the rifle built for it. Spending that kind of money on a custom British piece of art only to drag through the African countryside, a gunbearer just makes sense, even if only carrying it when necessary, and the gunbearer cost merely a fraction of the ammo used.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Since the Mahajarah of Rewa is mentioned..this is a Holland & Holland Royal ejector in .600 ordered by him in 1921.. It is perfectly balanced with 25" barrels and weigh in at 16lbs 2oz. It is a joy to shoot (regrettably its not mine). It is regulated for the 110 grain cordite load and gave 1900fps with modern Kynoch softs.. The moonsight is a gold encrusted diamond..

The Mahajarah also owned a Jeffery .600..


Me..I would gladly choose it as a stopping rifle..

View attachment 728902

Now that is a sexy rifle. I’d carry that!

 

[SStomcat]

Since the Mahajarah of Rewa is mentioned..this is a Holland & Holland Royal ejector in .600 ordered by him in 1921.. It is perfectly balanced with 25" barrels and weigh in at 16lbs 2oz. It is a joy to shoot (regrettably its not mine). It is regulated for the 110 grain cordite load and gave 1900fps with modern Kynoch softs.. The moonsight is a gold encrusted diamond..

The Mahajarah also owned a Jeffery .600..


Me..I would gladly choose it as a stopping rifle..

View attachment 728902

True that Sir, certainly joy to own and take it to range. For that I may also like to have one. However walking with that 16 pounder on the hot desert sands or over arid mountains chasing elephants is something I will think twice before venturing

 

[Pondoro]

True that Sir, certainly joy to own and take it to range. For that I may also like to have one. However walking with that 16 pounder on the hot desert sands or over arid mountains chasing elephants is something I will think twice before venturing

Carry a .470 and hire a gun bearer..switch rifles when closing in on the quarry..

 

[rookhawk]

Carry a .470 and hire a gun bearer..switch rifles when closing in on the quarry..

470NE typically weighs 10.75-11.25lbs
500NE 11lbs to 12lbs
577NE around 13lbs

Generally speaking for a fit person, that is about as much weight as a hunter can carry all day without a gun bearer.

4 bores and 600NEs and 700NEs are interesting, but they are typically in that 16lbs to 23lbs of weight, way more than is practical for someone to use on long stalks.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I’ll make it official, public, @Hunter-Habib, when you get the 600 Heym, I’ll be your gun bearer. I’ll bring a lighter but still proper caliber as back up.

Presently, I don’t mind carrying a heavy rifle…I make regular time to lift stupid heavy things for fun and health anyway. But I also hope to have another 25-35 years of African adventures ahead me…while that higher number is admittedly ambitious, a boy can dream. If I’m fortunate for that to prove true, I certainly expect my desire for heavier rifles for caliber may dwindle. I suspect I will also begin to enjoy the handiness in more delicately-proportioned doubles in cartridges of proven effect and comfort, such as the 375, 9.3x74 and 450/400. (Hell, to make @SStomcat grin a bit, I’ll also publicly admit I might even try out one of those K-Contraptions he adores so if I found the right one in a sub-bore…just don’t expect me to join your Heym bash crusade…can’t…wouldn’t be accurate or even remotely honest to my experiences). Knowing myself, even a much more advanced age self, to the extent possible, I’d still yearn for fire and fury of something like the 500 or larger and visual pleasure of seeing the effect of a well placed shot on an old dugga boy.

I can only hope to live and hunt long enough to regularly enjoy having a dedicated gunbearer along for the adventure. For those men who commissioned and hunted the 600ne’s of years past, I don’t think the idea of needing a gunbearer even played into the equation…more of a given. Have to expect the hunting outfits such gents would frequent were as bespoke as the rifle built for it. Spending that kind of money on a custom British piece of art only to drag through the African countryside, a gunbearer just makes sense, even if only carrying it when necessary, and the gunbearer cost merely a fraction of the ammo used.

That is very considerate of you, @Wildwillalaska

But part of the magic of Heym, is that a Model 88B Jumbo sidelock or 89B Jumbo boxlock chambered in .600 Nitro Express weighs only 13 LBs and has 23" barrels. Despite this, for some unusual reason... the recoil is quite manageable (excellent stock fit & balance, perhaps ?).

 

[rookhawk]

That is very considerate of you, @Wildwillalaska

But part of the magic of Heym, is that a Model 88B Jumbo sidelock or 89B Jumbo boxlock chambered in .600 Nitro Express weighs only 13 LBs and has 23" barrels. Despite this, for some unusual reason... the recoil is quite manageable (excellent stock fit & balance, perhaps ?).

@Hunter-Habib in the same rifle at the same weight, wouldn't you prefer the better penetration and milder recoil of the 577NE? What is it that you prefer about the larger 600NE?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@Hunter-Habib in the same rifle at the same weight, wouldn't you prefer the better penetration and milder recoil of the 577NE? What is it that you prefer about the larger 600NE?

@rookhawk

The .577 Nitro Express (750Gr bullets at 2050 FPS) will certainly outpenetrate the .600 Nitro Express (900Gr bullets at 1950 FPS). But (as John Pondoro Taylor noted in his writings) the .600 Nitro Express penetrates well enough to reach the vital organs of even the largest bull elephant from any angle.

I am a fan of the larger bullet diameter of the .600 Nitro Express. In my field experience, it delivers greater shock to the central nervous system of big game (as long as the velocity is still adequate, of course). I once hunted a hippopotamus bull on land with a .600 Nitro Express Heym Model 88B Jumbo sidelock ejector and the terminal effects of those 900Gr bullets upon the game animal... were spectacular to say the least. I've uploaded the pictures here previously. The wound patterns were VERY impressive.

This is of course, all relatively speaking. The .577 Nitro Express is a magnificent caliber, in & of itself too.

Also, I know that you don't like the man (I've come to respect that)... but white hunter Mark Sullivan (a close personal friend of mine who has extensively hunted African dangerous game with BOTH the .577 Nitro Express and .600 Nitro Express) tells me that on body shots, he has noticed better terminal effects on Cape buffalo & hippopotamus & elephant with the .600 Nitro Express. He has bagged them with certain shots from the .600 Nitro Express, but failed to stop them with those exact same shots when using the .577 Nitro Express.

 

[VertigoBE]

I've read through multiple comments of "Don't like shoulderless cartridges" ; "I like my cartridge sexy, with a shoulder" and more such variations.

I'm quite the opposite, nothing more sexy to me than a simple straight wall carrying a big piece of lead.

 

[matt85]

I’ll make it official, public, @Hunter-Habib, when you get the 600 Heym, I’ll be your gun bearer. I’ll bring a lighter but still proper caliber as back up.

Presently, I don’t mind carrying a heavy rifle…I make regular time to lift stupid heavy things for fun and health anyway. But I also hope to have another 25-35 years of African adventures ahead me…while that higher number is admittedly ambitious, a boy can dream. If I’m fortunate for that to prove true, I certainly expect my desire for heavier rifles for caliber may dwindle. I suspect I will also begin to enjoy the handiness in more delicately-proportioned doubles in cartridges of proven effect and comfort, such as the 375, 9.3x74 and 450/400. (Hell, to make @SStomcat grin a bit, I’ll also publicly admit I might even try out one of those K-Contraptions he adores so if I found the right one in a sub-bore…just don’t expect me to join your Heym bash crusade…can’t…wouldn’t be accurate or even remotely honest to my experiences). Knowing myself, even a much more advanced age self, to the extent possible, I’d still yearn for fire and fury of something like the 500 or larger and visual pleasure of seeing the effect of a well placed shot on an old dugga boy.

I can only hope to live and hunt long enough to regularly enjoy having a dedicated gunbearer along for the adventure. For those men who commissioned and hunted the 600ne’s of years past, I don’t think the idea of needing a gunbearer even played into the equation…more of a given. Have to expect the hunting outfits such gents would frequent were as bespoke as the rifle built for it. Spending that kind of money on a custom British piece of art only to drag through the African countryside, a gunbearer just makes sense, even if only carrying it when necessary, and the gunbearer cost merely a fraction of the ammo used.

Interested in carrying an 8-bore?

In my own experience, the ideal weights for cartridges are around:

450/470 NE: 10-11lb
500 NE: 11-12lb
577 NE: 15-16lb
8-bore: 16-17lb

 

[PCC600]

I could prefer 470 over 500,but only for defense after a true hard training, for availability about ammo and case look as well.I don t like cases shoulderless.

Why don’t you like cases without a shoulder ?

 

[PCC600]

@Wildwillalaska

I'd consider it to be a real pleasure. You could use it to shoot a saltwater crocodile with me.

A big cartridge for a saltwater croc . In Australia the 303 was the main ammo for crocs .

 

[PCC600]

@bimbo you're absolutely right and you're not the first person in history to make this recommendation. In the modern era, particularly for Americans, our first question is "How accurate is the rifle?" whereas the best hunters of the "great white hunter" era started with the question "how well does it feed and extract?".

If I had infinite resources, I would never own a 577NE as an elephant stopper. The one to get honors @bimbo's commments. It was the 600/577NE REWA, a rare caliber invented by the Nawab of Rewa, in India. About 25-35 were made by H&H and others. It's a 600NE necked down for better penetration, velocity, and extraction. An added benefit is that 577 bullets are much easier to find.

That would be the true "Stopper" for a professional elephant man.

A 600/577 Rewa and a 600NE pair of sidelocks were made for a friend in Australia . A very experienced double rifle and dangerous game hunter . He raves over the Rewa compared to his numerous 600s and 577s .

 

[PCC600]

Since the Mahajarah of Rewa is mentioned..this is a Holland & Holland Royal ejector in .600 ordered by him in 1921.. It is perfectly balanced with 25" barrels and weigh in at 16lbs 2oz. It is a joy to shoot (regrettably its not mine). It is regulated for the 110 grain cordite load and gave 1900fps with modern Kynoch softs.. The moonsight is a gold encrusted diamond..

The Mahajarah also owned a Jeffery .600..


Me..I would gladly choose it as a stopping rifle..

View attachment 728902

I have diamond front sights on some of my rifles . They were very common on rifles from India both doubles and magazine . They are fantastic when shooting in low light . Here is one on a 500NE of mine .

 

[PCC600]

@rookhawk

The .577 Nitro Express (750Gr bullets at 2050 FPS) will certainly outpenetrate the .600 Nitro Express (900Gr bullets at 1950 FPS). But (as John Pondoro Taylor noted in his writings) the .600 Nitro Express penetrates well enough to reach the vital organs of even the largest bull elephant from any angle.

I am a fan of the larger bullet diameter of the .600 Nitro Express. In my field experience, it delivers greater shock to the central nervous system of big game (as long as the velocity is still adequate, of course). I once hunted a hippopotamus bull on land with a .600 Nitro Express Heym Model 88B Jumbo sidelock ejector and the terminal effects of those 900Gr bullets upon the game animal... were spectacular to say the least. I've uploaded the pictures here previously. The wound patterns were VERY impressive.

This is of course, all relatively speaking. The .577 Nitro Express is a magnificent caliber, in & of itself too.

Also, I know that you don't like the man (I've come to respect that)... but white hunter Mark Sullivan (a close personal friend of mine who has extensively hunted African dangerous game with BOTH the .577 Nitro Express and .600 Nitro Express) tells me that on body shots, he has noticed better terminal effects on Cape buffalo & hippopotamus & elephant with the .600 Nitro Express. He has bagged them with certain shots from the .600 Nitro Express, but failed to stop them with those exact same shots when using the .577 Nitro Express.

I too prefer a 600 over the 577NE . I think the problem was created many years ago with the old Jeffery 600s being regulated for a 900gr bullet with 100gr of cordite - only gave 1850 fps and required 28 ( or maybe 26 inch barrels). Shorter barrels only exacerbated the speed issue . In comparison the 577NE ( full load ) moved a 750gr bullet at circa 2050 fps with 100gr of cordite ( again with 28 inch barrels). Modern 600s can be regulated to achieve 2050 fps with hand loads .They are awesome in this configuration . I do think they are best in a rifle of around 15 pounds . They do not need to be heavier but also should not be much lighter . My 2 bobs worth as the owner of a 600 and shooter of many other 600s and 577s.