Bullet suggestion for heart / lung shot on Elephant ?

[Happy Myles]

Hunting elephant over decades i have successfully used only solids and feel no reason to change

 

[Riflecrank]

A shorter solid is inherently more stable.
Maybe why there is nothing to be gained by using a 500-gr CEB Safari Solid versus the 450-grainer,
which is thus far champ of the .458 Safari Solids.
I must note that the .700" NP 400-gr.458 Safari Solid has not been tested at .458 WIN MAGA load levels.
It has been shown to penetrate 8 to 9 feet of water buffalo and cape buffalo, lengthwise in body.
It needs to be tested on elephant.

It is amazing that the old RN FMJ non-solids did as well as they did on elephant skulls.
I think that the tail slap on bone steered them and kept them from veering off course, sometimes.
Likewise a roundnose is good at penetrating a stack of boards, dry wood.
That is about the only thing it is better at than an FN truly-solid solid.

 

[Beck]

In 2010 I took an end of season buffalo hunt in the Zambezi valley. When I got to camp my guide said they had 1 tuskless tag left, and seeing how I was the last hunter of the year, November, they offered me the tag. All I had for ammo was Barnes TSX for my .375H&H. During my buffalo hunt we crossed paths with a tuskless, from about 30 yards my first shot was just a bit above her eyes, she fell on her butt, I put 3 in her chest, she died right there. Now, I do not recommend this to anyone, and on my next elephant hunt this September, I will once again be taking Barnes Banded solids, which performed wonderfully well with a frontal brain shot on my last elephant. So yes, Barnes TSX will work, just not the 'idea' situation, and a situation I would strive to avoid in the future. Lots of great solids out there to choose from.

How did the bullets fired into the chest look, did you recover them?

 

[Longwalker]

I am curious about an earlier comment describing the Woodleigh Hydro solids as a "limited penetration" solid. My understanding was that the design accomplished two things compare to flat nosed all-brass solids - deeper penetration while at the same time causing more tissue damage because of a wider permanent wound channel. Is this not correct?

 

[Andrew62]

How did the bullets fired into the chest look, did you recover them?

I spent hours today looking for any recovered bullets from that trip and I cannot find any. Knowing I used TSX I sure wish I’d have luck finding them.

 

[michael458]

I am curious about an earlier comment describing the Woodleigh Hydro solids as a "limited penetration" solid. My understanding was that the design accomplished two things compare to flat nosed all-brass solids - deeper penetration while at the same time causing more tissue damage because of a wider permanent wound channel. Is this not correct?

The Woodleigh Hydro and the North Fork CPS non-expanding version are considered "Limited Penetration Solids"........ They are not designed to be deep diving deep penetration solids, such as the North Fork Solid and CEB #13 Solids. Two different concepts.

You are correct, the Limited Penetration solids does cause more tissue damage, however does not penetrate as deep. Why? Let me see if I can explain this so it is easier to understand........... Both of these have more surface area that contacts tissue and or medium. The Cup Point design on both will present more surface area in contact with tissue or medium. John, the previous owner of North Fork was a good friend of mine and he explained it like this "The larger surface area of the CPS fools the medium or tissue into thinking the bullet is bigger than it really is". For instance, what happens when you hit tissue with a 65% meplat Solid as opposed to an 80% meplat Solid? The 65% meplat will penetrate much deeper than the 80% meplat, but will not disrupt as much tissue as the 80% meplat.The larger meplat will destroy more tissue, but not able to penetrate as deep.

You can see this in this example;

The Woodleigh Hydro is exactly the same, it presents a larger surface area than a deep diving solid, it is designed to disrupt more tissue, but by doing so, cannot penetrate as deep.

Now two of the very best designs for Deep and Straight line penetration Solids are the Cutting Edge #13 Solid with a 67% Meplat and the North Fork Solid at 68% Meplat. These are designed to give the deepest penetration of any solids out there. 65% Meplat is required for Terminal Stability during penetration, both CEB and North Fork exceed 65%. Yes, a larger meplat would mean more tissue destruction, but less depth of penetration, and larger meplat size than 68% begins to be a problem when feeding properly designed control feed bolt guns, Winchester M70s. We have tested up to 90% meplat size, but that won't feed/function in anything. Going above 70% meplat starts to give issues.

Here are the Deep Divers;

Even a much smaller Deep Diving Solid out penetrates the larger Limited Penetration Solids.......

I hope I explained this good enough to answer your question?

 

[Altitude sickness]

I was prepared to use Northfork cup point solids from my .505 Gibbs on this tuskless hunt. But my PH preferred the CEB loads I also had with me and they had the same Poi.

At approximately 17 yards I had a clear side brain shot, but there was a fair amount of brush and my PH whispered for me to take the heart lung shot. So I took the offhand shot. The bullet entered just forward of the armpit. If you look at the top leaf, you’ll see the bullet hole.

The bullet went through the heart lung into the other leg and she dropped immediately. We walked around and put one in the center of her chest. Neither bullets were recovered.

 

[Philip Glass]

Any thoughts on Heart / Lung shots on Ele wit a 470NE & 404 Jeff?

I'm planning a father & son ele hunt.
On previous occasions the vegetation lent plenty opportunity for heart / lung shots, but armed with the .375 I was leaning towards brain / head shots only...a few hairy moments were had.
I have since upgraded to a .470 NE, the Oldman carried his 9.3x62 for DG, but required an upgrade too so had him his dream caliber, a custom 404J built so he can honestly "cut his own tail" this year

Load development for the 404 have to be done...we are still sourcing components which are pretty scarce here in sunny SA. Solid options are pretty common, but feedback and quality expanding bullets are pretty hard to find. Some shops stock Hornady DGX & suggest it as a quality product Thanks to this forum I know better

Would it be considered foolish using good quality expanding bullets such as Barnes or Swift for heart / lung shots on Ele for the two calibers ? or should I rather stick with solids only?

It is a very good question yet one you are not allowed to ask. In the .470 loaded with a 500g TSX I am certain one could drive that bullet through the shoulder, vitals, and to the other side. I doubt it would go through both shoulders squarely but one easily. The TSX is a unique bullet that it seems many do not understand.
Now stop it! We are not allowed to discuss this topic.

 

[Fordy]

Gday hunter habib

Expansion is your enemy when hunting elephant. Any form of expansion whatsoever. You need to use a strongly constructed steel jacketed solid or (better yet) a brass monometal solid with a wide flat meplat.

You want a nose profile at least as blunt as this post 1982 pre 1989 Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid.
View attachment 697208
Or better yet, like this (the Cutting Edge Bullets monolithic brass flat nosed Safari Solid on the left)
View attachment 697209

On above I agree
now I’ll pose the question for people to tick on
Then why is the likes of the shedding monos not the pill that they are superior to the true solid as if you apply them correctly @ the velocity impact where expansion doesn’t occur if the shank you have more trauma in the wounds than the true solid @ the same impact speed ( when it’s applied @ a good working velocity impact not over all velocity impact)
As the shedding has the shank in a solid form that once petals or blades are shed your left with basically solid

So all will be right correct ?

I’ll get in first on that question lol ( although not a laughing matter as it’s one that I’ve had one of my best mates a retired PH have his leg busted by a elephants trunk as the elephant wasn’t dispatched correctly & the use of a thinking it will ok with this bullet played out but could’ve turned out worse but luckily it didn’t )

No it won’t yet it will work & be fatal either quickly or eventually in MOST CASES but I personally don’t work on most cases & even on those of quickly or eventually it’s one that has different interpretations of those for individuals but a pi$$ed of elephant is one that shouldn’t be given a chance to occur as only the best should be used

imo
that’s a true solid of a good nose profile & just as important of a good alloy which Leeds me into this of deewayne2003

I had excellent results with .470ne Hydros on my tuskless last July.
View attachment 697212

First shot cut a 3” branch in half, broke her shoulder, fully penetrated the heart broke ribs on the opposite side and lodged under the skin and was found by axe strike….
View attachment 697213

Second round penetrated the heart and exited, 3rd round to the brain and it was over.

Thankyou for this as now you’ve entered into the potential deflection issues that occur on the odd time but one if we accept it does occur despite our best efforts to not do it yet it does occur & when you’ve seen the likes of the shedding or mushroom monos in these cases you’ll understand why the use on elephant should be a no compromise on bullet choice & one avoided

A lot of testing would need to get those shedding or mushroom monos over the line for me & as much as I like to push things & just go shoot critters to confirm until it’s proven 100% reliable in other species Im not being that person but test I will

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday Philip glass
Don’t know your mannerisms & if this below is tongue in cheek or whatever?

It is a very good question yet one you are not allowed to ask. In the .470 loaded with a 500g TSX I am certain one could drive that bullet through the shoulder, vitals, and to the other side. I doubt it would go through both shoulders squarely but one easily. The TSX is a unique bullet that it seems many do not understand.
Now stop it! We are not allowed to discuss this topic.

But It should be discussed as if we don’t you’ll get the likes of people believing what comes up on keyboard typing or companies put out as being gospel & really it’s take one’s number in the bingo raffle that occurs from time to time in the field & without a doubt the likes of the mushroom or shedding pills are not as reliable as a true solid of good design but they can also be improved on

Yes the tsx along with many others are not as reliable to form as a good true solid
& shouldn’t it be a no compromise on a hunt especially if one is going elephant hunting?

Cheers

 

[Philip Glass]

Gday Philip glass
Don’t know your mannerisms & if this below is tongue in cheek or whatever?

But It should be discussed as if we don’t you’ll get the likes of people believing what comes up on keyboard typing or companies put out as being gospel & really it’s take one’s number in the bingo raffle that occurs from time to time in the field & without a doubt the likes of the mushroom or shedding pills are not as reliable as a true solid of good design but they can also be improved on

Yes the tsx along with many others are not as reliable to form as a good true solid
& shouldn’t it be a no compromise on a hunt especially if one is going elephant hunting?

Cheers

I have had many experiences were a solid, as they are known to do, didn't cause enough damage to get the job done. As an example on my rhino hunt I was told universally that I must use solids and even so the shoulder of the rhino might stop it. Ok so I used a solid in my .470. Rhino quartering towards and I was concerned about penetration since the shoulder was where I had to aim. The shot hit perfectly and went entirely through the rhino and exited from the hip. He ran over a mile and we thought he was lost. Upon inspection all was good and the bullet had gone right through the vitals. It was the wrong choice of bullet. A recent hippo on land proved another test case as I had insisted on using the TSX but was asked to use a solid for the second barrel. First shot fatal on the shoulder and second shot on the run hit nicely in the neck but the solid penciled through doing little damage.
My experiences have led me to believe the TSX is the bullet for anything but ele brain shot and follow-up.

 

[michael458]

I have had many experiences were a solid, as they are known to do, didn't cause enough damage to get the job done.

All Solids are Not Created Equal. I wonder myself just how many Solid experiences you have had? And the type of solids you have experience with?

I find it very odd, that I have had a hell of a lot of experiences with Solids, and the only ones I ever questioned was back in the days of The Jurassic the old Round Nose did not exhibit much damage, or did not impress the animals all that much, which included elephant, buffalo and hippo.

However, since 2005 I started using proper designed Flat Nose Solids, and the world of Solids Changed dramatically......... Incredible amounts of damage can not only be confirmed via autopsy, but in animal reactions to taking the big Flat Nose, 65% meplat or more.

In fact, just last week a very close friend of mine spent two weeks in Botswana. The first week he shot two large elephants, both shoulder/heart shots. One was DRT on the spot actually, the other went 10 steps and was down for the count. What was he using? Well, I know this for a fact, 458 Lott 450 gr CEB #13 Solid with 67% Meplat at 2370 fps. I loaded those for him, and did pressure work on that load as well, which came in at 58000 PSI.

This is a heart shot elephant I took a few years ago at close range with 500 MDM and 500 #13 CEB Solid at 2450 fps..... .500 caliber. I think you can see the damage done without having to explain it

I ask you this, does that look like it "Penciled Through"? I can tell you this, yes from real experience, had that been a Round Nose Solid, it would have in fact just been a round hole, that penciled through, nothing of any consequence what so ever. Again, All Solids Are Not Created Equal.

This elephant was heart shot with a 18 inch 458 B&M, 450 #13 Solid at 2200 fps. It went 20-25 yards and was down and done. Yes, bullet exited far side and still going for all I know.

I have shot a few elephants heart/shoulder shots, early years with Round Nose, any since 2005 where with Flat Nose Solids, there is a BIG BIG World of difference between the two bullet designs.
With FN Solids I never had an elephant go further than 25-30 yards max and down. I am not buying into the fallacy that a Flat Nose Solid does not do enough damage, that is pure____________insert your own words...... I think you can guess mine!

 

[deewayne2003]

The Woodleigh Hydro and the North Fork CPS non-expanding version are considered "Limited Penetration Solids"........ They are not designed to be deep diving deep penetration solids, such as the North Fork Solid and CEB #13 Solids. Two different concepts.

You are correct, the Limited Penetration solids does cause more tissue damage, however does not penetrate as deep. Why? Let me see if I can explain this so it is easier to understand........... Both of these have more surface area that contacts tissue and or medium. The Cup Point design on both will present more surface area in contact with tissue or medium. John, the previous owner of North Fork was a good friend of mine and he explained it like this "The larger surface area of the CPS fools the medium or tissue into thinking the bullet is bigger than it really is". For instance, what happens when you hit tissue with a 65% meplat Solid as opposed to an 80% meplat Solid? The 65% meplat will penetrate much deeper than the 80% meplat, but will not disrupt as much tissue as the 80% meplat.The larger meplat will destroy more tissue, but not able to penetrate as deep.

You can see this in this example;

View attachment 697516

View attachment 697515

The Woodleigh Hydro is exactly the same, it presents a larger surface area than a deep diving solid, it is designed to disrupt more tissue, but by doing so, cannot penetrate as deep.

View attachment 697517

Now two of the very best designs for Deep and Straight line penetration Solids are the Cutting Edge #13 Solid with a 67% Meplat and the North Fork Solid at 68% Meplat. These are designed to give the deepest penetration of any solids out there. 65% Meplat is required for Terminal Stability during penetration, both CEB and North Fork exceed 65%. Yes, a larger meplat would mean more tissue destruction, but less depth of penetration, and larger meplat size than 68% begins to be a problem when feeding properly designed control feed bolt guns, Winchester M70s. We have tested up to 90% meplat size, but that won't feed/function in anything. Going above 70% meplat starts to give issues.

Here are the Deep Divers;

View attachment 697518

View attachment 697514

Even a much smaller Deep Diving Solid out penetrates the larger Limited Penetration Solids.......

View attachment 697519

I hope I explained this good enough to answer your question?

@michael458
I notice the Hydro penetrated nearly 20% more then the CPS with nearly identical impact velocity and weight.... Why is that and what is the meplat percentage of the CPS?

@Fordy
I was definitely surprised, that tuskless was 12yds away and we were in dark jess and I didn't see that tree branch that was the exact color of the elephants hide until at the shot it erupted into splinters when the first Hydro ripped through it and thankfully stayed true to point of aim, striking her on the point of the shoulder as she was standing quartering to me.

The branch was at least 10-15' in front of her and again the Hydro hit at the exact point of aim and she never took another step, I hit her again in the shoulder and after reloading the .470 I could tell she was fading and beginning to sulk/wobble but the 3rd shot(brain) dropped her dead and she rolled over against the tree.

Looking back at the ordeal it's amazing how much more vision/recollection I had of the events at hand by using the RMR red dot with both eyes open; where when shooting the Impala and bushbuck with my .300win the scope seems to give tunnel vision.

 

[michael458]

I notice the Hydro penetrated nearly 20% more then the CPS with nearly identical impact velocity and weight.... Why is that and what is the meplat percentage of the CPS?

Good question, and observation. I have 73% meplat listed for the Hydro on the label. Measuring meplat is a very difficult task to begin with. You really cannot measure that direct, say with normal calipers. What we do here, is stamp the nose of the bullet on an ink pad, and then on paper. On average 5 times to make sure it is not pressed too hard, making it larger. Of course I could have access as well to the computer program with CEB, on the CEB bullets the meplat is 67% and the North Forks are 68%, those are set in stone. The Hydro was stamped and measured, and that would have only been the top portion of that bullet, and since it dips into a shallow Cup Point, 73% is not really correct, there is more surface area there.

Concerning the North Fork CPS, the only way you could know what the actual meplat, or surface area is, you would have to somehow measure the larger dip in the Cup Point, and I do not have a way to do that? You can only get a measurement across the entire top end, which I am sure is larger than 73%. Whatever the diameter is across the top of the North Fork, and then one would have to account for the Cup point surface area....... I believe it would be larger than 100% if you could do that. So that is your difference in depth of penetration. The North Fork will have much larger surface area in contact with the medium, and or animal tissue, less depth of penetration.

The bigger the percentage of meplat of caliber, the less depth of penetration you will get. The inside surface area of the North Fork CPS and to somewhat lesser extent the Hydro, is part of the meplat size.

Some years ago we ran an experiment in 45 Colt and 454 Casull with 300 gr Solids. Serious Handgun hunters like the larger meplat size for doing more tissue destruction, and they are willing to give up some depth of penetration to get the extra trauma inflicted. So I had a special run of 300 gr Copper Solids done with an 80% Meplat, to compare with the standard 300 gr Solid at 70% meplat.
Here you see the stamping method to get the size of the meplat on my end..........

And the Terminal Tests did exactly what we expected;

More Surface area, Larger Meplat Size, less penetration......... but more tissue trauma inflicted. There were only 250 of those bullets made at 80% meplat, they are very coveted by a couple of my handgun hunting pals.... and myself included, I still have a hand full............

But that is why the North Fork CPS penetrates less than the Hydro, and far far less than a "Deep Diving" #13 Solid or the standard North Fork Solid.

 

[Fordy]

Gday Philip glass

Thankyou for this below as some very good information we can break down to show why & what has occurred with a fair amount of certainty

I have had many experiences were a solid, as they are known to do, didn't cause enough damage to get the job done.

Yes totally agree & the usual suspect for these occurrences are the choice of the WRONG bullet either from a design or impact speed @ which IT’s applied @ .
( I mean this with the utmost respect & one that I’ll delve into as we go , this also is the case with the Barnes TSX in the case we are discussing as it is with every other bullet )

As an example on my rhino hunt I was told universally that I must use solids and even so the shoulder of the rhino might stop it. Ok so I used a solid in my .470. Rhino quartering towards and I was concerned about penetration since the shoulder was where I had to aim. The shot hit perfectly and went entirely through the rhino and exited from the hip. He ran over a mile and we thought he was lost. Upon inspection all was good and the bullet had gone right through the vitals. It was the wrong choice of bullet.

On above
If one hits a rhino on the shoulder with a quarter towards & the exit point of the bullet is the hip surely you have not taken both lobes out in the parts of the lobes which give better terminal results ?
Basically the TSX would’ve done the same of only taking one lobe out most likely or in best case with both bullets clipping of the off lobe but yes the TSX due to diameter has more chance but it’s ever so small that overall the chances of being any quicker are not going to really been evident as a only one lobe critter ( or slightly damaged 2nd lobe ) can & does run considerably further than a forward too central good wounding in both lobes impacts in the critter
The shedding monos in this shot angle case are the only pill made that has the ability to get into the main parts of 2nd lobe on a consistent base but nothing’s guaranteed & application of these also has potential issues that I’ll get into later also ( deflection prior to impact is key here in covering bases & where the good true solid rose to the top )

The other part of this scenario above is the impact speed in that 470 & once again the conventional weight TSX is not the best choice due to this being most likely in the realms of below 2100 impact on where opening issues are seen more but I don’t know how fast your pushing a TSX in your 470 but off Barnes data
the MV doesn’t get it above 2100 & loosing 20/25 fps per 10 yards one @ one’s range is going to be more likely in the realm’s of a 2000 impact I assume & here’s where a big issue with the tsx lies ( on multiple calibers I’ve seen this in but no history with the 470 tsx sorry )

A recent hippo on land proved another test case as I had insisted on using the TSX but was asked to use a solid for the second barrel. First shot fatal on the shoulder and second shot on the run hit nicely in the neck but the solid penciled through doing little damage.

Once again we need to brake this down

What was the size of the wound through the shoulder & assume through both lobes ?
Actual measurements of the wounds is critical here as it will give a idea of what the pill itself is actually doing in the critter as due to the meplat shape & diameter you can have varying size wounds yet exactly the same impact speed this is so important to understand & where if you look @ posts of Micheal458 above you see why this is so so important

My experiences have led me to believe the TSX is the bullet for anything but ele brain shot and follow-up.

This is one that I personally don’t get as in elephants case if we go in with a tsx or another non true solid pill choice you are wanting everything to go correctly & as @deewayne2003 showed things occur in the field that we just don’t see or worse don’t expect as the elephant may just turn on that dime & come in & your left with one option only of a brain shot right there right now !!
So now how do the guys shooting a tsx or like thinking a shoulder shot was going to occur with a bolt rifle get on ? Or the double guy misses his mark on the 2nd solid barrel?

Also deflection resistance of the pill should be taken seriously Imo once again & one I’ve done a fair amount of work on & with some surprising results but another time as I’m trying to finish that project up but extremely time poor @ present sorry but gladly post those results once completed

Yes elephant should imo leave nothing to chance & we should use the best that’s been proven & im all for pushing boundaries & done some really stupid stuff but until the data is gained/gathered we should air on the side of caution especially for elephant & use the proven methods that is one that will be occurring on elephant next year even though I’m wanting to put a non true solid into a elephant for my curiosity as some great results in other critters but I keep coming back to the what ifs & that I just can’t get passed but most likely they will work most of the time but i don’t like this below to play out on my number being called out & note the reserved sign as that’s for someone just don’t know who

Also Look @ Micheal’s impact of the elephant heart & the size of that hole & what’s done it , yep that ain’t no .5 cal hole yet drop 300 /500 fps impact & watch the size of that wound shrink considerably & the impact to tip of critter extend out yep
It’s speed of the pill combined with the good size/style of meplat

Can it be improved hell yeah & simple that’s speed & that may not be possible due to restrictions of the chambering or the penertration capabilities of that pill as if your catching multiple bullets on critters your already in the vicinity of maximum capability & dropping weight will be detrimental & speed alone won’t help that much more but can be detrimental if the alloy isn’t upto it so choosing wisely is important

Once again thanks & no disrespect intended & a good healthy discussion is one that hopefully will give someone a little better chance of getting better results & not relying on a ph to fix our mess ups as sometimes they even can’t
I say that last bit with the highest amount of respect to the ph’s

Cheers