Slugs for Bear

[HankBuck]

I always read all SLUG Threads with great interest.
But what amazes me, is that in gun-liberal America there are huge hunting areas and even states where hunting with rifles is not allowed.Only shotguns with slugs and buckshot.
I can only speculate about the reasons.
But would you have an official explanation for a German hunter where this is totally unusual?
Greetings and thanks
Foxi

@Foxi - In New Jersey it was Shotguns Only with Buckshot for Deer for the past 100 years, population density was one of the reasons given but that really makes no sense because the Northern part of the State was rural farm land & rolling hills of woods, South Jersey was pine land woods and marshes….”tradition” that just kept getting repeated over the years. The State of Iowa was also Slug guns only for Deer as was the State of Illinois and I have NO IDEA why….maybe You can let us know why we have some backward State Laws??

 

[HankBuck]

The us Forest service use shotguns with slugs for years on Bear protection. The problem with universal slugs that are intended for use in any choke is the have to be soft so they can get through a tight choke without damaging the barrel but as a results they will flatten causing poor penetration but properly placed it carries a big whack. The rifled slug barrels utilize sabot slugs which fro the most part are held inside of a sabot. These can utilize much hard projectiles resulting in deeper penetration, you choice

View attachment 466208

@raamw - that’s an odd photo? A wolf-attacking a Grizz AND a person close to “both” with a shotgun ready to shoot?

 

[Foxi]

no, that's not a wolf.
in russia, it is common practice to raise bears from the winter camp and then execute them when they come out disturbed.

 

[Raven]

in russia, it is common practice to raise bears from the winter camp and then execute them when they come out disturbed.

This is a traditional Russian hunting in a den. Now it is actually banned. Rather, it is possible to hunt this way, but with a number of restrictions. For example, you can't shoot females. But how do you know right away that a female has jumped out of the ground and snow? There are also seasonal restrictions – you can not kill a bear in winter. However, it is possible, if the autumn is cold, he will lie down in the den until the forbidden time.

In general, everything has become very difficult with this type of hunting. But it still exists. It has always been considered a special style to kill a bear in a den not with a gun, but with a special spear called a "rogatina". But you need to understand that only very experienced and desperate hunters dared to do this. There are almost no such people now.

 

[Alaska338]

I live in Alaska I have a great Marlin 45/70 Trapper setup for short range Moose and Bear.

But I will always pick my 12 Ga Rem 870 Slug Gun Wingmaster with Breneke Original Mag Slugs for Bear protection over my beloved 45/70.

Never Ever Buckshot for Bear !

 

[1dirthawker]

My preference on a “Charge” would always be Buckshot but that’s just my Opinion based on NOTHING because I’ve Never faced a charge. I do handle a shotgun well on flying targets and feel I could Hit a charging Bear more consistently with a load of Buckshot vs a Slug….but a charging Bear is NOT an incoming duck or clay target so all theory is just that “theory”. Ballistics mean Nothing if you can’t hit your target.

the only problem with buckshot on bears (or leopards so i hear) is that at the close distances they are used, the shot pattern is not that large and the penetration on a frontal shot with buckshot is much more limited. a broadside white tail and a frontal brown bear are vastly different things.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I live in Alaska I have a great Marlin 45/70 Trapper setup for short range Moose and Bear.

But I will always pick my 12 Ga Rem 870 Slug Gun Wingmaster with Breneke Original Mag Slugs for Bear protection over my beloved 45/70.

Never Ever Buckshot for Bear !

Ditto. In the tent in moose camp it's a short barreled 12 with Brenneke's. (I live in Alaska too - Dillingham)

 

[HankBuck]

the only problem with buckshot on bears (or leopards so i hear) is that at the close distances they are used, the shot pattern is not that large and the penetration on a frontal shot with buckshot is much more limited. a broadside white tail and a frontal brown bear are vastly different things.

@1dirthawker - I Agree with you on both your points: 1). Very small pattern with Buckshot at Close distances — but still “bigger then a rifle or slug ‘pattern’..
2). Penetration of buckshot on a Frontal shot (Bear Skull) will be less then ‘Broadside whitetail’ - but you don’t need as deep penetration on a skull/brain, just enough to break skull and reach Brain ie: 1” to 2” into skill by ONE pellet.
Since I’ve Never killed a ‘Charging Bear’ (or anything else ‘charging) that’s just what I would use because I think I’d have the Best chance of Hitting a charging animal with a Shotgun over any Rifle….and “Hitting” is the most important part !

 

[HankBuck]

no, that's not a wolf.
in russia, it is common practice to raise bears from the winter camp and then execute them when they come out disturbed.

@Foxi — Not a Hound either, doesn’t appear to even be a pure Husky or other type of sled dog (tail not curled) could you elaborate?
I’m gonna guess the dog (ugly dog) smells scent under the snow - finds a denned up bear, rousts the bear from den, - Hunter shoots Bear??
Don’t they use Hounds? I know some sled dogs will alert “bark” when a bear is scented, Polar Bears are sometimes detected this way…..not familiar with the type/method of Bear hunting you describe - but it’s interesting.

 

[Foxi]

@Foxi — Not a Hound either, doesn’t appear to even be a pure Husky or other type of sled dog (tail not curled) could you elaborate?
I’m gonna guess the dog (ugly dog) smells scent under the snow - finds a denned up bear, rousts the bear from den, - Hunter shoots Bear??
Don’t they use Hounds? I know some sled dogs will alert “bark” when a bear is scented, Polar Bears are sometimes detected this way…..not familiar with the type/method of Bear hunting you describe - but it’s interesting.

These are hunting dogs,
Laikas, Finnish Spitz, Norwegian Moosehounds.
The Nordic countries in Europe all have their own hunting dog breeds.
In Finland they also hunt bears at the winter camp (at least they used to)
Ugly dogs?
Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Laika

 

[HankBuck]

These are hunting dogs,
Laikas, Finnish Spitz, Norwegian Moosehounds.
The Nordic countries in Europe all have their own hunting dog breeds.
In Finland they also hunt bears at the winter camp (at least they used to)
Ugly dogs?
Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder
View attachment 685919

Laika

@Foxi - Hunting dogs maybe but NOT hounds, NO hound blood in that dog at all….you can have a very find hunting dog without any “Hound blood”….I’m unfamiliar with “Moose Hounds” but a true hound will run whatever scent it has been trained on….

 

[Raven]

Laikas are not hounds in the classic sense of the term. Although they can also do the work of hounds. They are considered the ideal dog for bear hunters. Laikas are very hardy, they feel fine in the most difficult conditions.

This is an excellent guard that will guard your camp. And guard so actively that it may not let you sleep. This dog will find a bear for you and detain it in place, will run around it, tease it, drive it crazy. Laikas are fearless. And if they are trained in a special way, taught how to behave with a bear or a boar, then they will become not just a friend, but also an excellent hunting partner.

In the photo is my friend's Laika. She is a great specialist in bears. She helped to get many of them. We hunted while floating down the river. And every time a bear was nearby, she began to growl angrily. And we were alert.

 

[mgstucson]

Laikas are not hounds in the classic sense of the term. Although they can also do the work of hounds. They are considered the ideal dog for bear hunters. Laikas are very hardy, they feel fine in the most difficult conditions.

This is an excellent guard that will guard your camp. And guard so actively that it may not let you sleep. This dog will find a bear for you and detain it in place, will run around it, tease it, drive it crazy. Laikas are fearless. And if they are trained in a special way, taught how to behave with a bear or a boar, then they will become not just a friend, but also an excellent hunting partner.

In the photo is my friend's Laika. She is a great specialist in bears. She helped to get many of them. We hunted while floating down the river. And every time a bear was nearby, she began to growl angrily. And we were alert.

View attachment 685989

These dogs can be trained to react to moose, bear, any large dangerous animal. They usually bark on sight of the animal, not on scent. If you a walking with them, they will usually keep running a moving perimeter around you. In camp the run the perimeter of the camp. If they bark, they are not signaling scent of an animal that is far away now, they are letting you know one is sighted where they are barking. In competitions in nordic countries, I understand they use them in pairs, and they will run a bear until it falls exhausted, and keep the bear heeled until hunter arrives. The feds use Karelian bear dogs (close relative to the Laika) here in the West US to run bears out of camping areas. They are very effective and seldom if ever loose a dog to a bear. The native peoples of Alaska and Canada used to keep these dogs, but they never pulled a sled, they rode in them. They also slept with the family at night. If any large predator came to call, the dog was on it, drawing the wrath and attention of the predator, without getting injured, and the family was alerted. A "good" hound will charge in, attack, and often end up dead, or very least the worse for wear. When these dogs work in pairs, if the bear stands his ground and goes after one dog, the other bites it in the butt. When he turns to that dog, the original dog bites it in the butt. These dogs are small enough and fast enough to avoid the bear, and the bear becomes exhausted by its own activity until it collapses. In primitive societies, the hunter could then walk right up and spear the exhausted animal. I watched a video on the interweb years ago where a team of 4 African bushman could track/chase large ungulates until the animal was exhausted, then the bushman walked right up and dispatched the animal with a spear. (PITA probably made them take the video down by now.) Large animals are faster than humans, but they cannot run as far as 4 humans running a relay race with them. There is more than one way to skin a cat, or chase a bear or a Kudu.

 

[Foxi]

@Foxi - Hunting dogs maybe but NOT hounds, NO hound blood in that dog at all….you can have a very find hunting dog without any “Hound blood”….I’m unfamiliar with “Moose Hounds” but a true hound will run whatever scent it has been trained on….

Hank,
with my limited knowledge of English as a German, the distinction between a hunting dog and a hound is not so clear to me. Please explain.

Of course every "Fifi" if it has passion will follow a trail.
Regards

 

[HankBuck]

Hank,
with my limited knowledge of English as a German, the distinction between a hunting dog and a hound is not so clear to me. Please explain.

Of course every "Fifi" if it has passion will follow a trail.
Regards

@Foxi - a “Hound” is a breed of dog used for Hunting and just like Bird Dogs have Labs/Retrievers, Setters/Pointers and Spaniels/Flushers based on their style of hunting and game pursed —- Hounds” include: Beagles/rabbits, Fox Hounds, Blood Hounds, etc.. Hounds are known for having a good nose for scent trailing and are used to hunt rabbits, hare, Bobcats, Cougar, Leopard, Bear etc.. Another type of Hound are “Sight” Hounds: Grey Hounds, Irish Wolf Hounds etc.. that must be able to See their prey and run after it.
Most Bear Guides in the U.S. that run Bear with Dogs use a pack of 4 to 8 Hounds and the hounds most often used are Plott, Blue Tick, & Walker Hounds. These hounds will find a bear by scent alone, run and follow that scent until they find and “jump” the bear and then run that bear (mostly by scent alone) for many miles until it either Trees or bays (stands in one place and fights). The hounds will keep the bear treed or bayed until the Hunter arrives and shoots it - sometimes hours later. Usually Dogs are used for Black Bear but a few guides will chase Grizzly with hounds where legal (British Columbia). I know there are many other types of dogs that can be used to hunt but these are a few brreds I’m familiar with. I am Not familiar with many dogs used in Europe and the game they go after (Boar, Stag, Wolf, etc..)