Would you hunt in an area in Africa that used a sliding scale for fees?

[steve white]

Not if I could book elsewhere and do better. When a hunter is lucky enough to stalk an outstanding specimen, then his joy should not be stolen by a sliding scale. They don't scale down very much for lesser trophies, you can bet. Many records have been set unexpectedly in places not known for top trophies--that's the luck of the draw. With a sliding scale, you can't win.

 

[grand veneur]

In Europe, we are familiar with the practice, especially when it comes to red deer hunting. The hunter states before the start of the hunt his upper limit regarding the trophy fees and accordingly the maximum trophy size.

I don't wish something like that on Africa, but the danger exists when you see how high the demand is for beautiful trophies and how the wildlife population is increasingly heavy managed in many areas. The door is open for the next step, sliding scale for fees.

 

[Muskox]

Here is my theory, as a client. My cousin owns a ranch in Wyoming he is thinking about opening up hunts on. We have that conversation about once a week. He is also a fairly accomplished international hunter, with more of an unlimited budget. But oilfield company money does that.

I personally hate the sliding scale. I deal with it every day. I love trophy fees, and I hate hunts that are flat rate without trophy fees.

Trophy fees inspire guide performance. To me more than anything else.

I'd like to see more of a turn to a trophy fee model in North America.

Sheep, Goats, Elk, Deer, Caribou, Moose and Bears all. Will never happen, but man I would love to see that.

Consider those $25,000 elk hunts in Utah. You sign up thinking you are going after a 380 plus type free range bull. What happens if you have bad weather for 4 days and shoot a 300 inch bull on day 5?

Or worse stone sheep hunts, $100,000 invested in a 14 day camping trip and weather and wolves ruin the trip. Happens.

My two counters to this on these super expensive hunts are:

1. Most of the people doing these $100,000 sheep hunts an $25,000 elk hunts are in a financial bracket where that money doesn't mean as much. So maybe this isn't a problem.

2. Canadian outfitters would figure out a way to take a hell of a lot of guys on a 14 day camping trip without producing a stone sheep for $50,000, with a $80,000 trophy fee on top of it.

For most standard hunts a $2000 5 day hunt fee and standard mule deer for $2500 and any buck over 170 is $2500 more, and any buck over 180 is $5000 more. This wouldn't be the end of the world.

I'd rather pay $5000 for a 165 mule deer than $15,000 for a 165 mule deer that I had to shoot on day 5 because of weather or the rut was off.

These are just my examples.

My cousin wants to do manage his ranch like a south Texas deer place, even though he lives in Wyoming and doesn't have the ability to manage deer like livestock.

Not sure there is a right answer.

 

[VertigoBE]

The last thing I want to be thinking about is my wallet, when I’m stalking an animal.

Not a fan at all of this. Fixed fee and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[grand veneur]

It's understandable that as client on are against it, we all are that too in Europe, but there is no going back and the practice can also appear in Africa. The first step will be a fixed fee up to a certain size, with anything exceeding that size charged additionally. It is already practiced for buffalo in some areas.

However, I don't know how this will be implemented practically, especially with antelopes, since the decision to shoot or not then rests with the PH. He must perfectly assess the size of the trophy in case there was a prior agreement with the client. Hunting conditions in Africa are not comparable to those in many countries of Europe, where you can sitting on a high seat quietly inspect with a binocular the trophy of a Red deer for example.

 

[Flbt]

It's understandable that as client on are against it, we all are that too in Europe, but there is no going back and the practice can also appear in Africa. The first step will be a fixed fee up to a certain size, with anything exceeding that size charged additionally. It is already practiced for buffalo in some areas.

However, I don't know how this will be implemented practically, especially with antelopes, since the decision to shoot or not then rests with the PH. He must perfectly assess the size of the trophy in case there was a prior agreement with the client. Hunting conditions in Africa are not comparable to those in many countries of Europe, where you can sitting on a high seat quietly inspect with a binocular the trophy of a Red deer for example.

You might could go back. If you could get most of the hunter organizations to not go on those types of hunts for a year.

 

[Russ16]

No.

I think it has a negative impact. People looking for a cheaper hunt in some species might shoot a younger animal which shouldn’t be incentivized in any way. In other species like buffalo the younger ones sometimes have bigger horns because they have wine down yet, which is why I’m not a fan of the current scoring systems.

Now if an outfitter set ups a system where younger animals were a higher price regardless of horn length I could get on board with that. The cheapest hunts would be the animals we should be targeting. Over time that means the hunts for those would get harder though so the age breaks would have to be thought out carefully.

 

[PARA45]

Definitely not a fan of that model…

If that’s the way an outfitter wants to work and the way a client wants to pay.. cool…

But absolutely not for me…

I’m one of those guys that’s really not a horn hunter though… I value the experience more than the actual animal if that makes any sense… my priorities when “trophy” hunting are to find something as old as we can.. and if it’s beat up and battle scarred, that’s all the better… I truly don’t care if my next buffalo is a 36” broken tipped bull or a 44”… just make sure he’s old as dirt, has hard bosses, and looks like he’s been fighting every day for the last 10 years and I’ll be happy…

I couldn't have said it any better. The experience, the experience, and again the experience. I also want to earn the right to hunt the animal by working hard on the hunt.

I do not measure anything I've shot. However, twice the PHs have asked me if they could measure an animal. One was the Gemsbok on my Avatar, and the second one was the Waterbuck I shot in the Eastern Cape this year.

Absolutely not, I wouldn't do it. I respect those who do, and that is their choice and their money. But, not for me.

 

[grand veneur]

No.

I think it has a negative impact. People looking for a cheaper hunt in some species might shoot a younger animal which shouldn’t be incentivized in any way. In other species like buffalo the younger ones sometimes have bigger horns because they have wine down yet, which is why I’m not a fan of the current scoring systems.

Now if an outfitter set ups a system where younger animals were a higher price regardless of horn length I could get on board with that. The cheapest hunts would be the animals we should be targeting. Over time that means the hunts for those would get harder though so the age breaks would have to be thought out carefully.

This is achieved with a scale of fees. Animals with big trophies are rarely very old animals and are shot for higher fees.

We should not idealize too much hunting in Africa. It is above all a trophy hunting and many just want to harvesting a nice Trophy. There is a risk that at some point, we will have to paid more for it. However, this will in my opinion not reduce the number of interested hunters.

 

[318AE]

Well, it is a free range area that Dogcat was asking about…not SA, so the specific animal part of the equation isn’t relevant. The pricing mentioned is exactly what is being charged by the operator in the area; therefore, he brought the question to the forum. I personally don’t like the sliding scale and would prefer to hunt for the biggest animal I can find.

Ah, yeah, I got that. He also posed the question as a hypothetical and said the animal in question was “not in large quantity” .

Is this actually in reference to a specific operator and area? Simpler just to share that. People may be imagining a LDE, mountain nyala or mongoose.

And trust me, it could apply to an elephant in a free range area.

 

[grand veneur]

One can say No to the initial question, but many people would also have say years ago that they would not book a hunt anymore because of too high additional costs, tips and shipping fees. Nowadays, all of that is taken for self-evident.

 

[Velo Dog]

When applied to Hunting and fishing, even the word “Trophy” thoroughly annoys me.

It sends loud and clear the wrong message to perhaps millions of non hunting, non fishing people who would otherwise be ok with what we do, when they vote for certain political moves by the elitist anti-hunting nuts in positions of power.

I am speaking of run of the mill, average voting people, not the hateful anti-hunter types.
The anti-hunting types can never be swayed from their hate.
They are haters and they love to hate.
That’s who they are.

But, many of the average folks around the world could be on our side come time to vote on outdoor matters, if we cleaned up our act a little bit and marketed our activities in a more palatable format.

 

[grand veneur]

When the discussion is about a sliding scale for fees, unfortunately one has to speak about trophies and trophy hunting, because these fees are linked to their size and shape.

 

[Hunt anything]

As others have stated, not in wild Africa like Mozambique and in my 6 trips now to South Africa I have steered away from any species that had a pay scale. Normally it seems to be kudu and buffalo.
The only species I’ve seen in wild areas that had a graduated pay scale was elephant bulls in Mozambique. There may be more out there but I just haven’t seen them.

 

[375er]

No interest at all. I would be hunting with someone else in a hot second.

 

[PARA45]

When applied to Hunting and fishing, even the word “Trophy” thoroughly annoys me.

It sends loud and clear the wrong message to perhaps millions of non hunting, non fishing people who would otherwise be ok with what we do, when they vote for certain political moves by the elitist anti-hunting nuts in positions of power.

I am speaking of run of the mill, average voting people, not the hateful anti-hunter types.
The anti-hunting types can never be swayed from their hate.
They are haters and they love to hate.
That’s who they are.

But, many of the average folks around the world could be on our side come time to vote on outdoor matters, if we cleaned up our act a little bit and marketed our activities in a more palatable format.

Well said @Velo Dog, and I agree with you 1000%. I do not use the term "trophy" either. I refer to them as animals hunted, not trophy hunted.

The beauty of pay by the inch, or not, is that we all have options and we can hunt with the outfitter(s) that suits our style of hunting or our wallet.

 

[Flbt]

Well said @Velo Dog, and I agree with you 1000%. I do not use the term "trophy" either. I refer to them as animals hunted, not trophy hunted.

The beauty of pay by the inch, or not, is that we all have options and we can hunt with the outfitter(s) that suits our style of hunting or our wallet.

Stupid question on my part. But who gets the money on pay by the inch hunt?
The government or the outfitters?
Or a split to both?

Strictly a American hunter mostly private land some public.

I understand on the private ranch’s that have exotic animals here you have to pay by the size on some trophies.

But bacilly you are shooting for lack of a better term simi domesticitated livestock
Bought and payed for put in the ranch for you to (hunt). Ok it’s there’s charge how you want.

But say on my farm I rent you a stand for today. It’s a state deer until you take it.
Why should you have to pay the outfitter ( in this case me ) because of the size of the rack?
I don’t own the deer I did not rase the deer.
Any extra money should I would think go to Fwc for a free range animal that belongs to the state.

 

[PARA45]

 

[Skshyk]

Sliding scales means fence's, fences mean no hunting for me.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

 

[pilar]

Here is my theory, as a client. My cousin owns a ranch in Wyoming he is thinking about opening up hunts on. We have that conversation about once a week. He is also a fairly accomplished international hunter, with more of an unlimited budget. But oilfield company money does that.

I personally hate the sliding scale. I deal with it every day. I love trophy fees, and I hate hunts that are flat rate without trophy fees.

Trophy fees inspire guide performance. To me more than anything else.

I'd like to see more of a turn to a trophy fee model in North America.

Sheep, Goats, Elk, Deer, Caribou, Moose and Bears all. Will never happen, but man I would love to see that.

Consider those $25,000 elk hunts in Utah. You sign up thinking you are going after a 380 plus type free range bull. What happens if you have bad weather for 4 days and shoot a 300 inch bull on day 5?

Or worse stone sheep hunts, $100,000 invested in a 14 day camping trip and weather and wolves ruin the trip. Happens.

My two counters to this on these super expensive hunts are:

1. Most of the people doing these $100,000 sheep hunts an $25,000 elk hunts are in a financial bracket where that money doesn't mean as much. So maybe this isn't a problem.

2. Canadian outfitters would figure out a way to take a hell of a lot of guys on a 14 day camping trip without producing a stone sheep for $50,000, with a $80,000 trophy fee on top of it.

For most standard hunts a $2000 5 day hunt fee and standard mule deer for $2500 and any buck over 170 is $2500 more, and any buck over 180 is $5000 more. This wouldn't be the end of the world.

I'd rather pay $5000 for a 165 mule deer than $15,000 for a 165 mule deer that I had to shoot on day 5 because of weather or the rut was off.

These are just my examples.

My cousin wants to do manage his ranch like a south Texas deer place, even though he lives in Wyoming and doesn't have the ability to manage deer like livestock.

Not sure there is a right answer.

I’m hanging up my towel on Canada and sheep , some are pretty shady ( not all !!)
But my uncle Hank talked to a outfitter in B.C about stone sheep for 2 years ($80,000 wasted), I went with him as his boy Friday/ servant and in 3 days could see we were being treated to a camping trip, sheep hunters seem to be the easiest target, example looking at this price list is mind boggling, fee for sheep hunt + $15000 for a caribou add on is ridiculous robbery
“”
Dall/Fannin Sheep Hunts
Duration: 15 days
Hunt dates: August
Hunt price: $75,000.00 USD + GST
For additional harvest fee Caribou (15k), Grizzly (15k) & Moose (20k) can be added to this hunt.

I managed a ranch in south Texas 35 years and I would say it’s impossible for Wyoming
DM me if you want any advice