Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

[ChaplainChawley]

Why is there no speaking softly and carrying a big stick chambered in 470 NE?

I was pondering guns I could have in classic cartridges (mostly rimmed), without double gun money, and it struck me. How is it that neither Winchester nor Marlin created a lever gun in a low pressure, high performance safari cartridge that you could load on Sunday and shoot all week? Your second shot would be slower than a double but arguably faster than a bolt and the double guys don't have two or three more after that for a charging animal.

Why not? Are you all hat and no Kudu?

 

[geoff rath]

Closest items of which I've read are the Alaskan wildcats in 458 or 500; conversions on Winchester Model 71s etc. Alternative, and definitely NOT classic are the Big Horn Model 89, and 90, in 500 and 460 S&W respectively. Not heard of them being used in Africa ...

 

[Spooksar]

The NE cartridges are wide and long compared to the existing lever action cartridge. The action would be very unwieldy and a very long throw on it. Just not practical.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Well, Winchester did come out with the .405 Winchester which saw reasonable use in both Africa and Asia (in the Model 1895). It was used by the following hunters:

Africa
-President Theodore Roosevelt (although his main elephant and Cape buffalo rifle was his .500/450 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector)
-Charles Cottar (who was actually killed by the cow rhino which he failed to stop with this caliber)
-Jan Lediboor (who was actually killed by the bull elephant which he failed to stop with this caliber)
-Osa Johnson & her husband Martin Johnson (who possessed heavier rifles in their battery)

Asia
- The Marquis De Monestrol
- Kenneth Anderson (although his main rifle for hunting rogue elephants was a .450/400 Nitro Express W.J Jeffery boxlock ejector

A poor sectional density (300Gr bullets of .411 caliber) coupled with anemic velocities (2204fps) and the relatively flimsily constructed nickel jacketed bullets of the era led to the original decline of popularity of this caliber. Then, the original rifles also had an annoying tendency to jam on you, if you loaded the magazine to full capacity and then worked the lever very fast between shots. This eventually caused the original Winchester company to cease manufacture of rifles in this caliber by 1931 and ammunition of this caliber by 1936. Kynoch kept loading 300Gr soft point cartridges until 1957, but they ceased manufacture as well. Today, Miroku manufactures an updated version of the Model 1895 for Winchester. And modern handloading techniques coupled with strongly constructed monometal bullets (as formerly manufactured by North Fork) have brought about a reasonable improvement over the original ballistics of the .405 Winchester.

There have also been a couple of large bore wildcat calibers designed for lever action rifles over the years (with mixed success). When Col. Charles Askins hunted in Vietnam in 1956 (when he had gone there for 12 months to act as a consultant for the South Vietnamese army), he had brought along a Winchester Model 71 that was rebarrelled to a wildcat caliber which he called the .450 Alaskan (400Gr Barnes Original copper jacketed soft points and solids backed by 63Gr of #4895 propellant). It ended up performing very poorly in the field and Col. Askins quickly abandoned it in favor of his .458 WInchester Magnum Model 70 Super Grade.

There is also the .45-90 Express wildcat caliber and the .50 Alaskan wildcat caliber. The .45-90 Express is a modern day modification of the .45-90 Sharps cartridge but loaded with smokeless powder. It can throw 400Gr bullets at 2130 fps. The .50 Alaskan can throw 450Gr bullets at 1718 fps. For the weight and caliber of bullet, these velocities are a little on the lower side (in my personal experiece) for hunting thick skinned African game.

As a final observation, it should be noted that all of the above mentioned calibers have relatively unsatisfactory ballistics for African dangerous game (compared to calibers traditionally used in bolt action rifles). By this, I refer to sectional densities and case capacities.
.405 Winchester: A .411 caliber rifle should be able to throw a 400Gr bullet at 2150 fps (minimum)
.450 Alaskan & .45-90 Express: A .458 caliber rifle should be able to throw a 450Gr bullet at 2150 fps (minimum)
.50 Alaskan: A .510 caliber rifle should be able to throw a 535Gr bullet at 2150 fps (minimum)

This leads me to believe that lever action rifles are ill-suited for high pressure cartridges. I'll also add that the vast majority of lever action rifle designs feature tubular magazines which make the use of pointed nose bullets in them (like the Barnes TSX) unsafe. And then, there is the factor of lever action rifles being not as accurate for long distance shots as bolt action rifles.

 

[ChaplainChawley]

Closest items of which I've read are the Alaskan wildcats in 458 or 500; conversions on Winchester Model 71s etc. Alternative, and definitely NOT classic are the Big Horn Model 89, and 90, in 500 and 460 S&W respectively. Not heard of them being used in Africa ...

Perhaps instead of "why not?" it should be "what if?" I've noticed in my short time researching African hunting that levers are not popular choices. What if Winchester chose to give Teddy an 1895 in 450 NE (somehow mechanically overcoming the length of the cartridge and rimmed feeding) and such hunting was now the African standard?

The NE cartridges are wide and long compared to the existing lever action cartridge. The action would be very unwieldy and a very long throw on it. Just not practical.

A fair point. I did consider what it would be like to be poked in the eye by your bolt as you cycled the action. What if the throw was a geared system to reduce the throw mechanically by 1/2? Would it be more unwieldy than an 11lb double?

 

[neilw]

I recall Doug Turnbull made a big bore lever action that he successfully took a Cape Buffalo with.

https://gundigest.com/gun-reviews/rifles-reviews/gun-review-475-turnbull-rifle

 

[ChaplainChawley]

Well, Winchester did come out with the .405 Winchester which saw reasonable use in both Africa and Asia (in the Model 1895). It was used by the following hunters:

Africa
-President Theodore Roosevelt (although his main elephant and Cape buffalo rifle was his .500/450 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector)
-Charles Cottar (who was actually killed by the cow rhino which he failed to stop with this caliber)
-Jan Lediboor (who was actually killed by the bull elephant which he failed to stop with this caliber)
-Osa Johnson & her husband Martin Johnson (who possessed heavier rifles in their battery)

Asia
- The Marquis De Monestrol
- Kenneth Anderson (although his main rifle for hunting rogue elephants was a .450/400 Nitro Express W.J Jeffery boxlock ejector

A poor sectional density (300Gr bullets of .411 caliber) coupled with anemic velocities (2204fps) and the relatively flimsily constructed nickel jacketed bullets of the era led to the original decline of popularity of this caliber. Then, the original rifles also had an annoying tendency to jam on you, if you loaded the magazine to full capacity and then worked the lever very fast between shots. This eventually caused the original Winchester company to cease manufacture of rifles in this caliber by 1931 and ammunition of this caliber by 1936. Kynoch kept loading 300Gr soft point cartridges until 1957, but they ceased manufacture as well. Today, Miroku manufactures an updated version of the Model 1895 for Winchester. And modern handloading techniques coupled with strongly constructed monometal bullets (as formerly manufactured by North Fork) have brought about a reasonable improvement over the original ballistics of the .405 Winchester.

There have also been a couple of large bore wildcat calibers designed for lever action rifles over the years (with mixed success). When Col. Charles Askins hunted in Vietnam in 1956 (when he had gone there for 12 months to act as a consultant for the South Vietnamese army), he had brought along a Winchester Model 71 that was rebarrelled to a wildcat caliber which he called the .450 Alaskan (400Gr Barnes Original copper jacketed soft points and solids backed by 63Gr of #4895 propellant). It ended up performing very poorly in the field and Col. Askins quickly abandoned it in favor of his .458 WInchester Magnum Model 70 Super Grade.

There is also the .45-90 Express wildcat caliber and the .50 Alaskan wildcat caliber. The .45-90 Express is a modern day modification of the .45-90 Sharps cartridge but loaded with smokeless powder. It can throw 400Gr bullets at 2130 fps. The .50 Alaskan can throw 450Gr bullets at 1718 fps. For the weight and caliber of bullet, these velocities are a little on the lower side (in my personal experiece) for hunting thick skinned African game.

As a final observation, it should be noted that all of the above mentioned calibers have relatively unsatisfactory ballistics for African dangerous game (compared to calibers traditionally used in bolt action rifles). By this, I refer to sectional densities and case capacities.
.405 Winchester: A .411 caliber rifle should be able to throw a 400Gr bullet at 2150 fps (minimum)
.450 Alaskan & .45-90 Express: A .458 caliber rifle should be able to throw a 450Gr bullet at 2150 fps (minimum)
.50 Alaskan: A .510 caliber rifle should be able to throw a 535Gr bullet at 2150 fps (minimum)

This leads me to believe that lever action rifles are ill-suited for high pressure cartridges. I'll also add that the vast majority of lever action rifle designs feature tubular magazines which make the use of pointed nose bullets in them (like the Barnes TSX) unsafe. And then, there is the factor of lever action rifles being not as accurate for long distance shots as bolt action rifles.

Very thorough, interesting read. I looked up the .405... I am surprised they chose a rimmed cartridge for the 1895, whose alleged purpose was to enable the use of spitzer-style bullets in smokeless cartridges. I plinked with an m91/30 Mosin long enough to experience rim lock because of hasty loading. Not something I would want to experience during an elephant charge!
Imagine with me a tube-fed 450 or 470 NE or an 1895, if they solved rimmed feeding. Geared to reduce throw with a bolt short enough to run without hitting yourself... if not impossible, then probably too expensive to manufacture commercially - defeating the purpose - but what if?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Very thorough, interesting read. I looked up the .405... I am surprised they chose a rimmed cartridge for the 1895, whose alleged purpose was to enable the use of spitzer-style bullets in smokeless cartridges. I plinked with an m91/30 Mosin long enough to experience rim lock because of hasty loading. Not something I would want to experience during an elephant charge!
Imagine with me a tube-fed 450 or 470 NE or an 1895, if they solved rimmed feeding. Geared to reduce throw with a bolt short enough to run without hitting yourself... if not impossible, then probably too expensive to manufacture commercially - defeating the purpose - but what if?

A very innovative concept. It would have to be a one-off action (built on the CNC machinery) scaled to proportion in order to accommodate for the big .470 Nitro Express cartridge. However, I am not convinced that reliable feeding (especially in high stress scenarios) could be accomplished. Let me ask one of my close American gunsmith friends about some of the challenges present when advancing with a project such as this.

 

[uplander01]

I would not hesitate to use a 71 or 86 chambered in 450 alaskan with the modern bullets that are available.

I worked for a guy in Alaska briefly in a past life that only used lever actions. He was one of the most prolific brown bear guides of modern times, and swore by the rapidity of follow up shots of the lever gun. Coming from a guy that had taken literally more 9-10' brownies than anyone else on earth, I'd say thats sound information. A 1895 in 375 Scovill was his choice later on in life as he claimed that it was easier to carry and had enough juice with 270 grain bullets.

 

[Shako Badhan]

There is a nice segment on this topic on The Big Game Hunting Podcast.

Ep 205: Lever Action Rifles For Hunting Africa With Kevin Robertson

Apple | Google | iHeart | Spotify | Stitcher

thebiggamehuntingblog.com

Kevin Robertson makes some good points as to why lever guns are not well suited to Africa based on his experience. It’s worth a listen in any case.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that American gun companies marketed their rifles for Americans. If an American wanted to go to a far away place for adventure they could just head west. There was no need for an elephant rifle in Wyoming.
The English, on the other hand, went to Africa or India.

 

[HookMeUpII]

They make 470 and 475 Turnbull lever actions. Watched an episode of "Under Wild Skies" where Makris took a buffalo with one. Of course you will likely pay a small fortune for one. This is the rifle:

Under Wild Skies, Model 1886 Take Down PAST PRODUCT - No longer for sale - Turnbull Restoration

Tony Makris, host of ESPN’s “Under Wild Skies” and now, “Under Wild Skies Africa”, has joined forces with Doug Turnbull to produce a special edition lever action rifle. Doug is […]

www.turnbullrestoration.com

It's do-able for sure. There's nothing particularly special about making something like a 375HH in lever action to my understanding. It's just expensive to re-tool actions, barrels, ramps, etc.

With that, comes the market for them. Can't spend a ton of money and not recover it in sales.

 

[Major Bonkers]

Shako Badhan - instead of listening to the podcast - over an hour long, apparently - might you please just give us the reasons?

I would think that one of the main reasons why not would be omnipresent African dust. After ten days wandering about the Limpopo last year, my rising bite refused to close. Helpful tip - brake fluid out of the bakkie did the trick, acting as de facto gun oil.

 

[HookMeUpII]

I would think that one of the main reasons why not would be omnipresent African dust. After ten days wandering about the Limpopo last year, my rising bite refused to close. Helpful tip - brake fluid out of the bakkie did the trick, acting as de facto gun oil.

Maybe, but I imagine the dust of the plains in the USA was comparable back in the homesteading "Wild West" days where the design was borne.

It's likely just due to cost of re-tooling and lack of a market for them. 45-70 will pretty much take anything in NA but isn't quite up to takes for Africa DG. Just doesn't make sense to spend a ton of money on re-designing something that will sit on the shelf.

To your point about the dust, yes, that is pretty serious dust. I would come back to camp, blow my nose, and all sorts of red/brown not fun looking crud would come out.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@Major Bonkers and @HookMeUpII definitely aren’t kidding.
Remington Model 700 extractors are notorious for failing in the hot, dusty conditions of Africa. Especially in any of the larger calibers.

 

[DFritz89]

As previously mentioned, one of the best options out there for big bore lever chamberings is the 475 Turnbull, which (if you can find the ammo) can move a 400gr bullet at 2150 fps for a MV of 4105 (very similar to factory 404J ballistics)

 

[Shako Badhan]

Shako Badhan - instead of listening to the podcast - over an hour long, apparently - might you please just give us the reasons?

I would think that one of the main reasons why not would be omnipresent African dust. After ten days wandering about the Limpopo last year, my rising bite refused to close. Helpful tip - brake fluid out of the bakkie did the trick, acting as de facto gun oil.

Not a problem, as you say it is long but definitely worth a listen. There are a few things that I can remember off the top of my head. These were Kevin Robertsons opinions.

There are no “off the shelf” lever guns in calibers that are legal for dangerous game.

Can you build one that meets the criteria, yes but it will have to be in an uncommon caliber for Africa. If your rifle and ammunition are parted in transit you end up with an expensive club as you wouldn’t find that ammunition in Africa.

Even when a caliber meets the criteria it usually does so at the expense of its sectional density.

The handling characteristics of lever guns change as they are fired and the magazine empties.

I’m missing a lot but those were some basic points. I definitely recommend giving it a listen, along with all the other interviews with Kevin Robertson

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

A simple use of the search function for "lever action" revealed this 12-page thread;
"why-no-lever-action-rifle-for-elephants"

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/why-no-lever-action-rifle-for-elephants.54406/

Member @crs has hunted Africa with a lever action and commented to the above listed thread.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

As a teenager I was a lever action junkie. I wondered why no lever actions were used for military service. Many decades later and after a career in the US Marines, I have many rifles in my gun safes. While I can afford whatever I desire, there are no lever actions in my safes. Maybe because I learned to deliver accurate hits on target rapidly with bolt action.

For an African safari, simple it best. A bolt action is simple, and if based on a Mauser such as a Winchester Model 70 CRF, they are field maintainable. That also answers why in the bolt action military days a hundred years ago, there were no level actions in wide use in military service.

If one wants to shoot an elephant with a lever action, handgun, single shot, or whatever, knock yourself out.

 

[Joker12]

There is no good reason why, A Winchester 71 or an 86 or a 95 can all be chambered for a suitable cartridge for DG. They are tough reliable time proven designs. Quick to cycle at the shoulder, generous magazine capacity and certainly accurate enough. They are almost exclusively an American tradition though and perhaps thats why they have little history in places where much DG is hunted. They do have that history in North America though. Certainly anything that could be hunted with a 450/400 double could be safely hunted with a proper lever gun.