why do people not use premium bullets?

[Flewis]

@Flewis
I decided to run an accuracy test on my Whelen using premium like woodliegh and nosler accubonds along with standard cup and core.
Bullet weight ranged from 200gn to 310gn.
The 310gn hit close to the bull as I knew it would the others all printed into around 2 inches around 2.5 to 3 inches high.
Interesting test 10 shot 2 inches. Stared with a cold barrel and when I finished the barrel was that hot you couldn't touch it
Bob
Loads used
View attachment 558796
ResultsView attachment 558797
I love it when you can pick up your rifle, match bullet to game and go hunting without the need to resight. Accurate guns are fun.

That old w

@Flewis
I decided to run an accuracy test on my Whelen using premium like woodliegh and nosler accubonds along with standard cup and core.
Bullet weight ranged from 200gn to 310gn.
The 310gn hit close to the bull as I knew it would the others all printed into around 2 inches around 2.5 to 3 inches high.
Interesting test 10 shot 2 inches. Stared with a cold barrel and when I finished the barrel was that hot you couldn't touch it
Bob
Loads used
View attachment 558796
ResultsView attachment 558797
I love it when you can pick up your rifle, match bullet to game and go hunting without the need to resight. Accurate guns are fun.

@Flewis
I decided to run an accuracy test on my Whelen using premium like woodliegh and nosler accubonds along with standard cup and core.
Bullet weight ranged from 200gn to 310gn.
The 310gn hit close to the bull as I knew it would the others all printed into around 2 inches around 2.5 to 3 inches high.
Interesting test 10 shot 2 inches. Stared with a cold barrel and when I finished the barrel was that hot you couldn't touch it
Bob
Loads used
View attachment 558796
ResultsView attachment 558797
I love it when you can pick up your rifle, match bullet to game and go hunting without the need to resight. Accurate guns are fun.

Can’t beat that,

 

[K95]

@Rule 303
That's what I hate about the 243. But I will give it one thing.
It's the best wounding caliber I have come across. Other calibers like 25 and up actually kill shit.
Bob

Hi Bob
I know how much you love the 6 mm but I have used one on and off for over 40 yrs and my wife now, I carn’t ever recall tracking a wounded animal ever. All game up to Reds can be taken with the 6mm. Use the right bullet for the game intended and shoot straight like any cartridge and you will fill the freezer.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I use Woodleigh's for hunting but only use a few for practice before the hunt. The rest of the time I use the cheaper cup and core. I am lucky with most of my rifles as the cheaper ones shoot to the same point of impact or fairly close to it.

Yes. I've found I can shoot less expensive bullets with the same weight and bullet design as my hunting bullets for practice and they print real close at REASONABLE hunting distances. I can't afford to shoot Swift A Frames (if one can find ANY) for practice. For those that can, more power to you.

 

[gizmo]

I am probably going to piss someone off saying this but here goes anyway, because people are stupid, arrogant, and in some (possibly a lot) completely uninformed. A lot of hunters hear something somewhere or read some article by one of the dipshit talking heads being paid by ammunition companies and take it as gospel.
Don't get me wrong, you don't have to be a certified ballistics expert to hunt but like anything else in life you get out of it what you put into it.
Additionally, its for the same reason that the majority of hunters shoot their rifles once to sight it in, once before season if you are lucky or in the case of a guided hunt the outfitter requires them to check zero before a hunt, then once at an animal if given the opportunity. So at best they shoot their rifle 3x a year. In my experience with clients over the years those shooting things like Core-Lok's almost always fall into that category.
We try to educate clients when the opportunity arises and in a heck of a lot of cases it is because the client is brand new into hunting and just doesn't know. The rest, a much smaller portion are just plain cheap or don't care.
This also leads into another soap box rant on people shooting way too much gun for their skill and ability level. When the guys show up with a 7000 Weatherby Ultra Super Magnum to hunt whitetail and talk about how they can shoot the eye out of the gnat at a million yards with their shoulder mounted artillery piece its hard not to roll your eyes because you know its going to be a hellava long few days. In 100 % of the cases with this I watch them then cuss that same gun or the scope for being off and something "changing" while verifying zero at the range and they cannot even hit a lifesize metal deer target we have set up at 200 yards anywhere on the target neither off a bench or sticks. The fact is you can watch them flinch so damn bad they about jump out of their shoes because they are scared to death of the recoil that's about to happen. This is not to say that there are not people that can shoot those big mid-bore belted magnums proficiently, sometimes barring on exceptionally. There are, but they are certainly the exception not the rule.
In both cases I think the majority of the time its a combination of machismo and ignorance. Men tend to think bigger is always better and they "know what they are doing" when quite frankly those types wouldn't know their elbow from their asshole. I hate to say it but it is really an issue with older people, my age and up. The younger group of hunters, women, or hunters that are older but are late bloomers in their hunting and shooting careers (for lack of a better term) are generally squared away. They show up with some pretty impressive custom rifles, most of the time with their own hand loads or premium factory ammo. That group of folks are some shooters.
Now there is one person that I have had the good privilege of hunting with that fits neither mold and that is our own AH'r @Hogpatrol. He's an old fart but, that dude I am pretty sure could literally shoot the wings off a fly with just about anything at any range. He is definitely in the top 3 best shooters I've ever been around and knows his shit. Point being, before I get blasted for what i have said, there are exceptions to every rule. Another guy i have hunted with who due to his work i will not say his name is indeed a younger guy, in his late 30's, who didn't start shooting until he was in his early 30's but has spent a hellava lot of money on shooting courses and shoots several hundred rifle rounds out of each of his main hunting rifles a month. He is probably one of the most dedicated rifle shooters I know and sheesh that guy can shoot. He struggles a little on animals as he gets pretty amp'd up (really not so much anymore now) but good lord I've seen him do some very very impressive shooting and he's won idk how many long distance competitions over the last few years.
Sorry for the rant but hey the question was asked.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I am probably going to piss someone off saying this but here goes anyway, because people are stupid, arrogant, and in some (possibly a lot) completely uninformed. A lot of hunters hear something somewhere or read some article by one of the dipshit talking heads being paid by ammunition companies and take it as gospel.
Don't get me wrong, you don't have to be a certified ballistics expert to hunt but like anything else in life you get out of it what you put into it.
Additionally, its for the same reason that the majority of hunters shoot their rifles once to sight it in, once before season if you are lucky or in the case of a guided hunt the outfitter requires them to check zero before a hunt, then once at an animal if given the opportunity. So at best they shoot their rifle 3x a year. In my experience with clients over the years those shooting things like Core-Lok's almost always fall into that category.
We try to educate clients when the opportunity arises and in a heck of a lot of cases it is because the client is brand new into hunting and just doesn't know. The rest, a much smaller portion are just plain cheap or don't care.
This also leads into another soap box rant on people shooting way too much gun for their skill and ability level. When the guys show up with a 7000 Weatherby Ultra Super Magnum to hunt whitetail and talk about how they can shoot the eye out of the gnat at a million yards with their shoulder mounted artillery piece its hard not to roll your eyes because you know its going to be a hellava long few days. In 100 % of the cases with this I watch them then cuss that same gun or the scope for being off and something "changing" while verifying zero at the range and they cannot even hit a lifesize metal deer target we have set up at 200 yards anywhere on the target neither off a bench or sticks. The fact is you can watch them flinch so damn bad they about jump out of their shoes because they are scared to death of the recoil that's about to happen. This is not to say that there are not people that can shoot those big mid-bore belted magnums proficiently, sometimes barring on exceptionally. There are, but they are certainly the exception not the rule.
In both cases I think the majority of the time its a combination of machismo and ignorance. Men tend to think bigger is always better and they "know what they are doing" when quite frankly those types wouldn't know their elbow from their asshole. I hate to say it but it is really an issue with older people, my age and up. The younger group of hunters, women, or hunters that are older but are late bloomers in their hunting and shooting careers (for lack of a better term) are generally squared away. They show up with some pretty impressive custom rifles, most of the time with their own hand loads or premium factory ammo. That group of folks are some shooters.
Now there is one person that I have had the good privilege of hunting with that fits neither mold and that is our own AH'r @Hogpatrol. He's an old fart but, that dude I am pretty sure could literally shoot the wings off a fly with just about anything at any range. He is definitely in the top 3 best shooters I've ever been around and knows his shit. Point being, before I get blasted for what i have said, there are exceptions to every rule. Another guy i have hunted with who due to his work i will not say his name is indeed a younger guy, in his late 30's, who didn't start shooting until he was in his early 30's but has spent a hellava lot of money on shooting courses and shoots several hundred rifle rounds out of each of his main hunting rifles a month. He is probably one of the most dedicated rifle shooters I know and sheesh that guy can shoot. He struggles a little on animals as he gets pretty amp'd up (really not so much anymore now) but good lord I've seen him do some very very impressive shooting and he's won idk how many long distance competitions over the last few years.
Sorry for the rant but hey the question was asked.

+1 on @Hogpatrol! I've seen some photos he's shared with me regarding the distances he's taken game at and it's unbelievable! Quite an accomplished long range HUNTER. I say hunter and not "shooter" because he takes game at those distances.

 

[Flewis]

+1 on @Hogpatrol! I've seen some photos he's shared with me regarding the distances he's taken game at and it's unbelievable! Quite an accomplished long range HUNTER. I say hunter and not "shooter" because he takes game at those distances.

Hey did he call us stupid?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hi Bob
I know how much you love the 6 mm but I have used one on and off for over 40 yrs and my wife now, I carn’t ever recall tracking a wounded animal ever. All game up to Reds can be taken with the 6mm. Use the right bullet for the game intended and shoot straight like any cartridge and you will fill the freezer.

@K95
Loaded with the CORRECT BULLET the 6mm do a reasonable job.
Problem is at least 95% of people that use them in my experience use the wrong bullet for the game. It killed once so they expect the same result every time. When it doesn't happen they wonder why.
I have tried to get them to use a better bullet but I may as well beat my head against a wall. No amount of explanation will convince them otherwise.
Load a nice 85gn TTSX, 95gn SST or even a 100gn round nose or a 100gn lapua mega and the 6mm can be a useful hunting cartridge within its limits.
So yes the 6mms can be useful but stupidity or ignorance prevents it becoming what it could be.
If people stopped loading 87gn varmit bullets for medium game and use hunting bullets they would be better off, BUT speed attracts them. Lighter faster= flatter and better so must be good is the mentality I come across.
Bob

 

[CoElkHunter]

I just wanted to share this regarding "ignorance" with regards to bullet choice and I'm surely not alone. I came from a non hunting family growing up. I went with two of the neighbor men bird hunting at different times for doves and ducks when I was 15-16yoa. I later hunted birds with a couple of high school buddies. I knew of NO ONE who hunted deer at the time. I kind of taught myself through trial and error. I managed to take a couple of fork horned bucks and one pig before moving to Colorado in '89. I was still using my mid '70s Winchester .270 with my handloaded Sierra 130gr. BTSP bullets. I switched to factory 150gr. Nosler Partitions because elk were now in the offering and I had no time for reloading. I never shot an elk with my .270, but did take several pronghorn and mule deer with it. My father in law had a Remington 700 in .338WM. He used 225gr. Nosler Partitions and killed a BUNCH of elk, deer, some caribou, a moose and a Dall sheep with it over the years. I shot it a couple of times and then started to look for a rifle in that cartridge. I found my Browning A Bolt .338 at a gun show. Not knowing any difference (or not caring or ignorance?) I bought a couple of boxes of Remington 225gr. Core Lokts. I shot my first cow elk with them and continued using them I guess because they worked? In our elk camp over the last 30+ years, nobody really talked about what bullet they're using unless somebody asked. We talked about the rifles and cartridges but not so much about what bullet one is using. One guy couldn't believe I killed my first elk with a Core Lokt as he was using Partitions in his .300WM. He kept asking me "you mean the ones in the green and yellow box?" In fact, until I became a member of this forum, I never knew about ALL the different bullets hunters are using worldwide. I've since switched to Barnes TTSX but how many other hunters are/were "blissfully ignorant" like I was as to the available choices in bullets?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I am probably going to piss someone off saying this but here goes anyway, because people are stupid, arrogant, and in some (possibly a lot) completely uninformed. A lot of hunters hear something somewhere or read some article by one of the dipshit talking heads being paid by ammunition companies and take it as gospel.
Don't get me wrong, you don't have to be a certified ballistics expert to hunt but like anything else in life you get out of it what you put into it.
Additionally, its for the same reason that the majority of hunters shoot their rifles once to sight it in, once before season if you are lucky or in the case of a guided hunt the outfitter requires them to check zero before a hunt, then once at an animal if given the opportunity. So at best they shoot their rifle 3x a year. In my experience with clients over the years those shooting things like Core-Lok's almost always fall into that category.
We try to educate clients when the opportunity arises and in a heck of a lot of cases it is because the client is brand new into hunting and just doesn't know. The rest, a much smaller portion are just plain cheap or don't care.
This also leads into another soap box rant on people shooting way too much gun for their skill and ability level. When the guys show up with a 7000 Weatherby Ultra Super Magnum to hunt whitetail and talk about how they can shoot the eye out of the gnat at a million yards with their shoulder mounted artillery piece its hard not to roll your eyes because you know its going to be a hellava long few days. In 100 % of the cases with this I watch them then cuss that same gun or the scope for being off and something "changing" while verifying zero at the range and they cannot even hit a lifesize metal deer target we have set up at 200 yards anywhere on the target neither off a bench or sticks. The fact is you can watch them flinch so damn bad they about jump out of their shoes because they are scared to death of the recoil that's about to happen. This is not to say that there are not people that can shoot those big mid-bore belted magnums proficiently, sometimes barring on exceptionally. There are, but they are certainly the exception not the rule.
In both cases I think the majority of the time its a combination of machismo and ignorance. Men tend to think bigger is always better and they "know what they are doing" when quite frankly those types wouldn't know their elbow from their asshole. I hate to say it but it is really an issue with older people, my age and up. The younger group of hunters, women, or hunters that are older but are late bloomers in their hunting and shooting careers (for lack of a better term) are generally squared away. They show up with some pretty impressive custom rifles, most of the time with their own hand loads or premium factory ammo. That group of folks are some shooters.
Now there is one person that I have had the good privilege of hunting with that fits neither mold and that is our own AH'r @Hogpatrol. He's an old fart but, that dude I am pretty sure could literally shoot the wings off a fly with just about anything at any range. He is definitely in the top 3 best shooters I've ever been around and knows his shit. Point being, before I get blasted for what i have said, there are exceptions to every rule. Another guy i have hunted with who due to his work i will not say his name is indeed a younger guy, in his late 30's, who didn't start shooting until he was in his early 30's but has spent a hellava lot of money on shooting courses and shoots several hundred rifle rounds out of each of his main hunting rifles a month. He is probably one of the most dedicated rifle shooters I know and sheesh that guy can shoot. He struggles a little on animals as he gets pretty amp'd up (really not so much anymore now) but good lord I've seen him do some very very impressive shooting and he's won idk how many long distance competitions over the last few years.
Sorry for the rant but hey the question was asked.

@gizmo

When my son was learning to shoot he got to a stage where he thought he was good enough. Man was he pissed off when I told he if he thinks he's that good he better practice more. When I showed him more stuff he said dad your good. I told him no I'm not there's better than me. He practiced more then more and when he thought he had enough he practiced more. Not only did he practice off the bench he practiced all field positions as well as off sticks. Before we went to Namibia he had fired around 2,000 plus rounds of 22lr and a good couple of hundred rounds of 308 as well as a couple of thousand 12 bore rounds of trap and field.
In Namibia I was given a great compliment by our PH. He said he wished he had adult clients that could shoot so naturally, bath accurate and reasonably quickly.
Even now that he's has a girlfriend he still likes to get to the range or out bush to maintain his skills be it with his 308, 22 or 12 gauge O/U.
GOOD SHOOTERS aren't born the become good by continually practising and maintaining their skills be it by dry firing in the living room, plinking or target shooting with a 22 or other rifles and by hunting.
I'm not as good as I was when younger, reflexes get slower, eyesight gets worse but I still practice just not as much as I used to. I was at the range on Saturday and was asked if I would like to have a shot of a 30-378. Silly question. The owner spent 5 minutes adjusting the front and rear rest getting it just right before his shot. Yes he's a bloody good shot off the bench.
I chose a rock about 8 inches of past the 200yd range. Rested elbows on the bench and as soon as the crosshairs hit the target the rifle went off automatically. No more rock. He asked how come I was so quick. My simple reply PRACTICE and MORE PRACTICE.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hey did he call us stupid?

@ Flewis
Not us mate we own 35s you know real rifles.
@CoElkHunter may be different tho cause he owns a 338WM but he has one real rifle at least a 25-06 so he's only half silly
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I am probably going to piss someone off saying this but here goes anyway, because people are stupid, arrogant, and in some (possibly a lot) completely uninformed. A lot of hunters hear something somewhere or read some article by one of the dipshit talking heads being paid by ammunition companies and take it as gospel.
Don't get me wrong, you don't have to be a certified ballistics expert to hunt but like anything else in life you get out of it what you put into it.
Additionally, its for the same reason that the majority of hunters shoot their rifles once to sight it in, once before season if you are lucky or in the case of a guided hunt the outfitter requires them to check zero before a hunt, then once at an animal if given the opportunity. So at best they shoot their rifle 3x a year. In my experience with clients over the years those shooting things like Core-Lok's almost always fall into that category.
We try to educate clients when the opportunity arises and in a heck of a lot of cases it is because the client is brand new into hunting and just doesn't know. The rest, a much smaller portion are just plain cheap or don't care.
This also leads into another soap box rant on people shooting way too much gun for their skill and ability level. When the guys show up with a 7000 Weatherby Ultra Super Magnum to hunt whitetail and talk about how they can shoot the eye out of the gnat at a million yards with their shoulder mounted artillery piece its hard not to roll your eyes because you know its going to be a hellava long few days. In 100 % of the cases with this I watch them then cuss that same gun or the scope for being off and something "changing" while verifying zero at the range and they cannot even hit a lifesize metal deer target we have set up at 200 yards anywhere on the target neither off a bench or sticks. The fact is you can watch them flinch so damn bad they about jump out of their shoes because they are scared to death of the recoil that's about to happen. This is not to say that there are not people that can shoot those big mid-bore belted magnums proficiently, sometimes barring on exceptionally. There are, but they are certainly the exception not the rule.
In both cases I think the majority of the time its a combination of machismo and ignorance. Men tend to think bigger is always better and they "know what they are doing" when quite frankly those types wouldn't know their elbow from their asshole. I hate to say it but it is really an issue with older people, my age and up. The younger group of hunters, women, or hunters that are older but are late bloomers in their hunting and shooting careers (for lack of a better term) are generally squared away. They show up with some pretty impressive custom rifles, most of the time with their own hand loads or premium factory ammo. That group of folks are some shooters.
Now there is one person that I have had the good privilege of hunting with that fits neither mold and that is our own AH'r @Hogpatrol. He's an old fart but, that dude I am pretty sure could literally shoot the wings off a fly with just about anything at any range. He is definitely in the top 3 best shooters I've ever been around and knows his shit. Point being, before I get blasted for what i have said, there are exceptions to every rule. Another guy i have hunted with who due to his work i will not say his name is indeed a younger guy, in his late 30's, who didn't start shooting until he was in his early 30's but has spent a hellava lot of money on shooting courses and shoots several hundred rifle rounds out of each of his main hunting rifles a month. He is probably one of the most dedicated rifle shooters I know and sheesh that guy can shoot. He struggles a little on animals as he gets pretty amp'd up (really not so much anymore now) but good lord I've seen him do some very very impressive shooting and he's won idk how many long distance competitions over the last few years.
Sorry for the rant but hey the question was asked.

@gizmo
Why is it the big machismo men need a firebreathing magnum to hunt game but buy the kids or wfe a 25 cal to kill the same game. Then get a surprise when the so called little gun kills game just as dead as thier big magnum.
Maybe they should look back at what they used when they started. Thier little thutty thutty killed stuff but somewhere along the way we got convinced bigger and faster is better.
I used my 35 Whelen in Namibia but my son's 308 killed game just as dead. In hindsight we both could have just used his 08 but NO DAD HAD TO HAVE THE WHELEN TO MAKE SURE.
I rest my case your honour.
Bob

 

[CoElkHunter]

@gizmo
Why is it the big machismo men need a firebreathing magnum to hunt game but buy the kids or wfe a 25 cal to kill the same game. Then get a surprise when the so called little gun kills game just as dead as thier big magnum.
Maybe they should look back at what they used when they started. Thier little thutty thutty killed stuff but somewhere along the way we got convinced bigger and faster is better.
I used my 35 Whelen in Namibia but my son's 308 killed game just as dead. In hindsight we both could have just used his 08 but NO DAD HAD TO HAVE THE WHELEN TO MAKE SURE.
I rest my case your honour.
Bob

Bob,
Your first sentence makes a great point. I don't know how many times I've read HERE where the poster talks about using a .300WM or larger for hunting the same game animal(s) as his son, daughter or wife is when they're using a 7mm-08, .308, etc.? Food for thought I guess.
CEH

 

[K95]

@K95
Loaded with the CORRECT BULLET the 6mm do a reasonable job.
Problem is at least 95% of people that use them in my experience use the wrong bullet for the game. It killed once so they expect the same result every time. When it doesn't happen they wonder why.
I have tried to get them to use a better bullet but I may as well beat my head against a wall. No amount of explanation will convince them otherwise.
Load a nice 85gn TTSX, 95gn SST or even a 100gn round nose or a 100gn lapua mega and the 6mm can be a useful hunting cartridge within its limits.
So yes the 6mms can be useful but stupidity or ignorance prevents it becoming what it could be.
If people stopped loading 87gn varmit bullets for medium game and use hunting bullets they would be better off, BUT speed attracts them. Lighter faster= flatter and better so must be good is the mentality I come across.
Bob

Yes so it’s the load not the cartridge. If you remember old Len Richardson, probably one of the best Sambar hunters of all time . His favorite caliber of choice was the 6 mm. Before he discovered it he used a 222 Rem . Nick Harvey shot quite a few Buffalo with his 6 mm Rem, worked perfectly with head shots. There are hunters and shooters . Give a good hunter a bent stick and he will get the job done. What I’m saying is it’s not the caliber but the person using it and their choice of projectile.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Yes so it’s the load not the cartridge. If you remember old Len Richardson, probably one of the best Sambar hunters of all time . His favorite caliber of choice was the 6 mm. Before he discovered it he used a 222 Rem . Nick Harvey shot quite a few Buffalo with his 6 mm Rem, worked perfectly with head shots. There are hunters and shooters . Give a good hunter a bent stick and he will get the job done. What I’m saying is it’s not the caliber but the person using it and their choice of projectile.

And I know one hunter who told me he had shot six elk over the years with his 6mm Remington 700 using 100gr. Core Lokts. He was using that same rifle in our elk camp one season. I wouldn't but apparently he did.

 

[Rule 303]

A bit like Bobs experience with the 243. Found pigs wounded (well the bullets we dug out of them were 6mm) by it and found more than with other calibre the users did not want to know. Know that may have been limited to a time span in my shooting history where the 6 mils were published as being fast flat shooting and deadly on game. Back then there was little-from memory- written about what bullets to use for what game.

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

I see it on a daily basis. Customer buys a $1500-$2000 rifle and the best bases and rings and a $800-$1500 scope for it. When you bring them some good quality Barnes, Nosler etc ammo they balk at the price of the ammo and say"you don't have anything cheaper in the $25-$30 range on ammo.
All I can do is try to educate them and explain. Sometimes it works but alot of the time they still buy the cheapest ammo.

 

[poco]

BOB couldn’t agree more about the practice and practice in every different way
my uncle and mentor would save plastic milk and juice jugs and he would go hang them in trees and we would walk his shooting courses on the ranch, practicing on hunting shots , prone, sitting , resting on a rock or tree at unknown distance and wind , angle, till shots became instinct
same with .22 and shotgun
bench time is great but being able to consistently shoot on the fly can’t be beat
still shooting with a old Burris signature & leopold because if I need knobs and dials I am getting out of my zone
and premium ammo imo is a bonded or partition, mono
my 2ct

 

[CoElkHunter]

I see it on a daily basis. Customer buys a $1500-$2000 rifle and the best bases and rings and a $800-$1500 scope for it. When you bring them some good quality Barnes, Nosler etc ammo they balk at the price of the ammo and say"you don't have anything cheaper in the $25-$30 range on ammo.
All I can do is try to educate them and explain. Sometimes it works but alot of the time they still buy the cheapest ammo.

That's all you can do and sometimes they won't listen anyway. I've tried to explain to my hunting buddy and his son that the 165gr. Sierra SPBT out of their .30-06s isn't the best bullet choice for elk, especially at distance because of its thinner jacket and tendency to "blow up" on bone (rib). I've suggested Barnes or Hornady but they won't listen to me as they've killed a couple of elk with them (more than one shot required on each) so I quit suggesting other bullets to them. I tried.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yes so it’s the load not the cartridge. If you remember old Len Richardson, probably one of the best Sambar hunters of all time . His favorite caliber of choice was the 6 mm. Before he discovered it he used a 222 Rem . Nick Harvey shot quite a few Buffalo with his 6 mm Rem, worked perfectly with head shots. There are hunters and shooters . Give a good hunter a bent stick and he will get the job done. What I’m saying is it’s not the caliber but the person using it and their choice of projectile.

@K95
Len used a 270/303 and thought it was to much gun. He rebarreled to the 243/303 and thought that ideal with 90gn sako bullets.
When you constantly see game wounded by idiots using the wrong projectile it tarnishes your view of a cartridge. Most of the time its the shooters fault not the cartridge. As you said Nick shot buff with a 6mm but he waited until they went past and he shot them behind the ear.
That's the difference between a HUNTER and a SHOOTER.
Bob

 

[375Fox]

I see it on a daily basis. Customer buys a $1500-$2000 rifle and the best bases and rings and a $800-$1500 scope for it. When you bring them some good quality Barnes, Nosler etc ammo they balk at the price of the ammo and say"you don't have anything cheaper in the $25-$30 range on ammo.
All I can do is try to educate them and explain. Sometimes it works but alot of the time they still buy the cheapest ammo.

I wish you were the salesman that sold my brother his rifle. He is primarily an archery and waterfowl hunter. He finally bought his first rifle this year for plans to hunt elk at some point (he had a 243 as a kid). I told him not to buy any ammo because I had lots of miscellaneous rounds to sight in and see what shoots in his rifle. Instead he comes back with several boxes of cheapest 300 win mag ammo they could sell him as part of the scope/rifle/ammo package.