What happened to British gun industry?

[Foxi]

"The biggest wind farm in the UK bought their turbines from Siemens Alstom, they bought from abroad"

Rolls Royce Motor Cars belongs to BMW,since 20years
And the air travel industry-RR produces the motors and turbines- is now going down the drain, all over the world.
Corona is a desaster for the economy,but Corona and Brexit is a nightmare.

 

[norfolk shooter]

I also think a big problem is the growing thought cycle of young people in the UK that don't want to get there hands dirty making things or working the fields.
Somehow engineering is far too working class for them. Hence the huge skills gap in the building industry that got plugged by migrant workers in the 00's.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Based up on my professional experience in the shikar field , Webley ... It would have to be the Oberndorf style release catch . Here is an article ... Which I had written a couple of weeks ago .
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/the-hunting-leopard-which-almost-killed-my-client.56586/
It is an English translation of a chapter from my good friend and former colleague's auto biography . Perhaps it may interest you ... To give it a read ?

It shall high light another situation ... Where an Oberndorf style release catch almost cost Riaz his career , and Riaz's client ... His life .

@Major Khan,

Zastava changed from having a magazine floorplate release button inside the trigger guard to a crossbolt (perpendicular) magazine floorplate release button for the LK M70 rifle. The rifle stock must be inletted to accommodate this design. I've attached some photos of both a rifle chambered for .30-06 Springfield with factory walnut stock and this design as well as a rifle chambered for 7mm-08 Remington with an aftermarket wood stock and this design.

I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments on this design. The earliest receiver manufacturing date among my Zastava rifles with this design is from 1989. This is the design Zastava continues to use with current production LK M70 rifles.

 

[MAdcox]

I just had a thought (it did hurt a little) are there any Lib bars in Dallas??

Oh yeah, Dallas is pretty liberal as Texas goes.

 

[tigris115]

Honestly, if I did get into safari hunting, I'd probably end up with an American made or Euro rifle. In terms of the big doubles, the 2 companies I would go for are HEYM and Merkel as I feel they deliver pretty consistent quality for a price that may be a tad high but I could by 5 Merkels for one H&H. Once the mainland Europeans proved they could make rifles and shotguns to match the British make without the British prices, that's what I feel happened to lower interest. Then again, I have no idea about any of this as it's all just spitballing. Sales stats would be nice.

Also, in terms of the great split between Dems and Reps, I feel the problem is that politicians have used it as a means to divide the masses, with the former being characterized as gun-grabbing communists and the latter being characterized as reckless rednecks. I'm sure there are plenty of liberal gun enthusiasts (or those who're curious) and we shouldn't shun them just because we ain't on the same party lines.

I know this last bit is gonna sound like something from a cartoon but we gotta learn to be friends and stuff. Besides, if you wanna be political, being softer and more open will get more of the gray area folks on "our side."

 

[Hank2211]

The British firm Army & Navy Stores produced a line of "value priced" shotguns for many, many years. These were produced by British gunmakers (many, in fact, by Webley & Scott) and were very similar, if not in some cases identical, to guns which those same makers sold under their own name at a much higher price. This was a substantial market for many years, and while the margins on these guns might not have been what they were on beautiful side-lock side-by-sides, they seemed enough to keep them in the catalogues year in and year out.

My father's family came from Yorkshire and one of those shotguns was passed down through the years to my father. It had no serial number and while it was a pretty spartan shotgun, it had lasted for more than a couple of generations (unfortunately it was pretty much destroyed in a flood). These guns were often sold to farmers for predator and vermin control (and perhaps the odd bit of bird poaching for the family pot). At one time, I would guess that shotguns could be found in a majority of the farmhouses of Britain. Some might even have been usable!

 

[Tanks]

In terms of the big doubles, the 2 companies, I would go for are HEYM and Merkel as I feel they deliver pretty consistent quality for a price that may be a tad high but I could by 5 Merkels for one H&H...

Don't forget Verney-Carron and Chapuis on that list. Also, there are some bespoke Italian double rifle manufacturers as well. At one local store I saw a Perugini & Visini .470 double by an Italian manufacturer, the rifle was beautiful, great to handle with a price to match - $56K+. Being left-handed really helps with impulse purchases.

 

[Wheels]

I also think a big problem is the growing thought cycle of young people in the UK that don't want to get there hands dirty making things or working the fields.
Somehow engineering is far too working class for them. Hence the huge skills gap in the building industry that got plugged by migrant workers in the 00's.

It seems that problem is in America too. A friend is a retired mechanical engineering professor. He said that maybe 10-20%% of students over the past 20 years come to school knowing what a crescent wrench or vice grips are. They were never taught while growing up.

 

[tigris115]

It seems that problem is in America too. A friend is a retired mechanical engineering professor. He said that maybe 10-20%% of students over the past 20 years come to school knowing what a crescent wrench or vice grips are. They were never taught while growing up.

It's because it's been culturally hammered into everyone's minds that they have to do college and get an office job if they really wanna be successful in life. People see those with a degree making money and that's all they see. Not to bash college but it's really not for everyone and I think that there needs to be some competition from trade schools. Personally, I'm glad for the experiences I had in college but I do like hands-on learning

 

[Major Khan]

@Major Khan,

Zastava changed from having a magazine floorplate release button inside the trigger guard to a crossbolt (perpendicular) magazine floorplate release button for the LK M70 rifle. The rifle stock must be inletted to accommodate this design. I've attached some photos of both a rifle chambered for .30-06 Springfield with factory walnut stock and this design as well as a rifle chambered for 7mm-08 Remington with an aftermarket wood stock and this design.

I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments on this design. The earliest receiver manufacturing date among my Zastava rifles with this design is from 1989. This is the design Zastava continues to use with current production LK M70 rifles.View attachment 349330 View attachment 349331 View attachment 349332 View attachment 349331

I actually find this sort of magazine floor plate release catch ... To be quite superior to the Oberndorf style magazine floor plate release catch , Mr. Zorg .

These are quite secure ... And are practically guaranteed not to spring open , at an unfortunate moment .

I am personally not a fan of the Oberndorf style magazine floor plate release catch on rifles intended for hunting dangerous game ... Or large calibre rifles .

The recoil can cause the shooter's knuckle to strike the magazine floor plate release catch ... Thereby , causing the magazine's floor plate to spring open and dumping the cartridges at the operator's feet .

During a follow up of wounded dangerous game ( Or indeed ... any close quarters shooting , at that ) ... There is always a chance of the rifle getting bumped . Should the operator inadvertently have his knuckle strike the magazine floor plate release catch ... Disaster shall ensue .

 

[Mr. Zorg]

@Major Khan,

Thank you for providing this review through your experienced eyes. If you order a current production Zastava LK M70 rifle, such as one chambered for 7X64mm as you expressed interest in purchasing in a different thread, this is the design magazine floorplate release it will have installed. It's not really easy to see this in the Zastava web site images or catalog.

 

[Waterbuck2008]

Nothing like extra "stuff" around the trigger guard to case trouble, as well as recoil-induced bloodletting.

 

[bruce moulds]

the british gun trade used to job out work a fair bit
almost down to cottage industry for some parts. even the big names did this, and possibly still do.
army and navy sold not only guns, but other things to commoners going out to the colonies.
speaking of the colonies, Britain controlled what was sold there to a large degree, even after many of them were off the leash.
in those days many people were hunters, even down to supplementing the kitchen table.
here in oz many cheap shotguns fulfilled this purpose.
as the colonies cut the apron strings more and more these markets dried up, due to better and more cheaply efficiently made American firearms.
of course then like now, if you drink your tea with the little finger extended, you might own a eurogun, but few of them can actually equal American guns for value and all round quality.
American design for actual shooting and using guns, as opposed to cheapness of manufacture, has been so far ahead of Britain and eorope since ww2 that there is no contest here.
this particularly in stock design.
bruce.

 

[tigris115]

Don't forget Verney-Carron and Chapuis on that list. Also, there are some bespoke Italian double rifle manufacturers as well. At one local store I saw a Perugini & Visini .470 double by an Italian manufacturer, the rifle was beautiful, great to handle with a price to match - $56K+. Being left-handed really helps with impulse purchases.

Either way, you now have so many Euro gun makers on the market that the loose-pocketed big game hunter can be more discerning which is good.

I wanted to ask if the internet had anything to do with this but iirc, the decline in the sales of fancy British guns declined before gun retail became really common online.

 

[Red Leg]

The British firm Army & Navy Stores produced a line of "value priced" shotguns for many, many years. These were produced by British gunmakers (many, in fact, by Webley & Scott) and were very similar, if not in some cases identical, to guns which those same makers sold under their own name at a much higher price. This was a substantial market for many years, and while the margins on these guns might not have been what they were on beautiful side-lock side-by-sides, they seemed enough to keep them in the catalogues year in and year out.

My father's family came from Yorkshire and one of those shotguns was passed down through the years to my father. It had no serial number and while it was a pretty spartan shotgun, it had lasted for more than a couple of generations (unfortunately it was pretty much destroyed in a flood). These guns were often sold to farmers for predator and vermin control (and perhaps the odd bit of bird poaching for the family pot). At one time, I would guess that shotguns could be found in a majority of the farmhouses of Britain. Some might even have been usable!

Army & Navy CSL was formed in the 1870's and was essentially a forerunner of the modern US military PX system. I provided products to members of the British Army and Navy (a bit early for the RAF) and colonial administrators at a discount. For many years, I owned a very plain sidelock non-ejector (unusual configuration) that I think was actually built by Charles Osborne, and I still have an old individual camp stove and tent candle lantern with the CSL logo. The guns were indeed produced by many of the Birmingham makers, and marked Army & Navy. Webley & Scott was a primary supplier. As soldier's retired and the Empire contracted, these guns often came home and continued to serve their owners and descendants across Great Britain.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

OK, now I'm in the picture.
If you hadn't intervened after April 17, we would have won this war too

A favourite argument between father and I is over the outcome of the Jutland, id be very curious to hear yours as well as @Red Leg opinions.

 

[bruce moulds]

if you are talking about the naval battle, both sides claimed victory, which suggests that neither won.
a lot of dead bodies for nothing.
bruce.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

if you are talking about the naval battle, both sides claimed victory, which suggests that neither won.
a lot of dead bodies for nothing.
bruce.

Yes the naval battle , I feel the British were victorious. Case in point If two men stand chin to chin the first draws a line in the sand and declares the second cannot Cross regardless of the shape each are in at the conclusion of the engagement if the secound man didn't cross the line the first has succeeded in enforcing his authority over secound.

 

[Red Leg]

Because Great Britain retained the strategic initiative, I think one must conclude it was a strategic British victory. However, the German High Seas Fleet inflicted destruction of twice the tonnage on the British Fleet than they themselves suffered. British personnel losses were three times higher. Then and now it was broadly seen as a tactical German victory, though obviously Great Britain worked hard to paint it differently. In fairness to Jellicoe, and as Churchill noted at the time, he was the one man who could lose the war in an afternoon. He also was not particularly well served by his battle cruiser flotilla commander Admiral Beatty.

Regardless of the debate, Admiral Scheer concluded that the High Seas Fleet could not withstand another "victory" like Jutland. It essentially imprisoned itself in the Baltic for the remainder of the war. In 1917, Germany resorted to unrestricted submarine warfare as a strategic alternative to another attempt to gain control of the North Sea through fleet action. Therefore, I think one has to consider the outcome clearly a British strategic victory.

A lot of debate and scholarship has filled articles and books over the years largely due to the perceived missed opportunity to actually destroy the German fleet. I tend to think Jellicoe played his cards very carefully, and the remainder of the war proved he was correct.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Because Great Britain retained the strategic initiative, I think one must conclude it was a strategic British victory. However, the German High Seas Fleet inflicted destruction of twice the tonnage on the British Fleet than they themselves suffered. British personnel losses were three times higher. Then and now it was broadly seen as a tactical German victory, though obviously Great Britain worked hard to paint it differently. In fairness to Jellicoe, and as Churchill noted at the time, he was the one man who could lose the war in an afternoon. He also was not particularly well served by his battle cruiser flotilla commander Admiral Beatty.

Regardless of the debate, Admiral Scheer concluded that the High Seas Fleet could not withstand another "victory" like Jutland. It essentially imprisoned itself in the Baltic for the remainder of the war. In 1917, Germany resorted to unrestricted submarine warfare as a strategic alternative to another attempt to gain control of the North Sea through fleet action. Therefore, I think one has to consider the outcome clearly a British strategic victory.

A lot of debate and scholarship has filled articles and books over the years largely due to the perceived missed opportunity to actually destroy the German fleet. I tend to think Jellicoe played his cards very carefully, and the remainder of the war proved he was correct.

So would it then be a logical conclusion that the submarine tactics employed in the secound were a direct result of Jutland? Obviously the Germans learned the hardships of a blockade and that the risk/rewards were better when the employed u boats.