Understanding The Phenomenon Of Jacket-Core Separation

[IvW]

That’s all fine and dandy, but the only country where you can actually get some is RSA

Yes we are blessed.....

 

[IvW]

I do find it strange that one off the top US manufacturers will be exibiting at our RSA Huntex show with special prices on their premium bullets for PH but they seem to be not available in the US.......TBBC.....

 

[IvW]

Norma Oryx bullets are among the best of the currently available bonded bullets in my opinion. I've used them with complete satisfaction for shooting mule deer, elk, black bear, kudu, oryx, and giraffe with calibers .243, 30-06, and 9.3x62 and 9.3x74R. Every bullet I've recovered was on the far side, under the skin, and expanded to over double diameter and retained 90% or more weight, even after hitting bone.

Thay are good but not in the same class especially for DG.....bar leopard.....not weight forward design and not fully controlled expansion....

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My only bullet failure was with 2 of the Barnes solid coppers that did not open up at all. Pencil size holes in and out. Animals ran about 200-250 yards before expiring. Spoiled me on them. Well that and the copper fouling.

@MS 9x56
In my 35 I love the cup and core as well as the bonded Woodleigh and accubonds
But
In my 25 the 109gn TTSX is devastation in game when started out at over 3,600 fps
Bob

 

[poco]

I do find it strange that one off the top US manufacturers will be exibiting at our RSA Huntex show with special prices on their premium bullets for PH but they seem to be not available in the US.......TBBC.....

Yes it’s terrible, federal/ Speer can’t make some bear claws or grand slams for the USA market, and with Woodliegh still in limbo after the fire , swift concentration on small caliber , and basically all RSA bullet Manufacturing not having any distribution in North America.
we have only barns tsx and north fork to rely upon for .375 +

 

[Rule 303]

I wish I could get 250 grain Grandslams for my Whelen. Nothing else shoots a 5 shot group that looks like 4 shots cloverleafing.

 

[crossone]

My Dad had my uncle build him a 35 Whelen Imp. about 40 years ago with a old style H-S Precison stock (pre-aluminum block/chassis), Eddystone action, Douglas barrel with a Vari-X 3 1.5-5 on it. It stacks 250 gr Speer Spitzers into tiny groups. He's killed a dump truck load of elk with it over the years. The bullets don't hang together very well but well enough. He went with the Whelen because in North Idaho, its so dang thick that sometimes it can take the better part of a week to even see an elk and when you do, you're usually right on top of them (15 -30 yards) and often it was just a rump sticking out from behind a tree. 1 jump or step and they were gone. If it was either sex season (no reason to check for head gear) he would do what he called "break them down" which was driving that 250 grain bullet into their hip. This would paralyze their rear end and because he was so close, within just a couple of seconds, he would put a finisher in them.

When he did get a broadside shot, he would shoot them in the ribs and their reaction was to hump up, take a couple of steps and then tip over. Truly a fantastic elk round.

BTW, even though I mostly hunt in open country now and don't use them, when I hunted the thick stuff, Partitions delivered.

 

[318AE]

Alright, Gents. A discussion for you all.

It goes without saying that those of us who've hunted with cup & core bullets... have all experienced jacket-core separation at least once or twice (if not more) in our hunting lives. Especially older hunters like me who began our adventures at a time when bonded or monolithic bullets were completely unheard of.

My question is: Do you always consider jacket-core separation to be an example of bullet failure ?

Take myself for example:
In 1974, on my life's first Safari to Africa (Kenya)... I lost a huge male lion (over bait) after my bullet (a 300Gr Winchester Silver Tip fired from a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum BRNO ZKK602) had failed to reach the vital organs. After my white hunter, Mr. Cheffings successfully spoored & finished off the lion with his .458 Winchester Magnum B.S.A Majestic... a postmortem revealed that my Winchester Silver Tip had experienced jacket-core separation & failed to penetrate the six inches of hardened feline frontal chest muscle.

In 1989, I attempted to make a double lung shot on a man eating Royal Bengal tiger with a Winchester Super X 175Gr cup & core point fired from my 7x57mm Mauser Churchill Gun Makers Model Deluxe. The animal succumbed to the gunshot wound on the following day. Postmortem revealed that my bullet had broken through the scapula & only penetrated one lung before experiencing jacket-core separation. The man eater died but one can hardly claim this to be a clean dispatch by any stretch of imagination.

Now, on the flip side of things... I've frequently shot (among other game animals) wildebeest & zebra with the aforementioned Winchester Super X soft points for the 7x57mm Mauser. And also (in recent years) the Prvi Partizan 173Gr cup & core soft point. When used on wildebeest & zebra, both the Winchester & the Prvi Partizan 7x57mm Mauser bullets are guaranteed to experience jacket-core separation (especially when hitting hard bone). But the wildebeests and zebras all gave out within mere seconds of getting shot.

So I'm basically asking: Have any of you experienced jacket-core separation with a bullet during the hunt ? And if so, then what was the ammunition & what was the game animal ? And did you successfully drop the animal or not ?

Warmest Regards,
Habib

I had a jacket-core separation in a little more modern context. Let me explain…

I was bringing a pre-war 275 Rigby to RSA circa 2019. I felt obligated to bring “275 Rigby“ brass vs “7x57” brass so as to avoid potential hassles at entry. Moreover, I choose to use the factory Hornady 275 Rigby ammunition, as the accuracy was good, rather than shoot it all and develop reloads with a 140 grain swift a-frame or similar (which I was using in the US in 7x57 marked brass to good effect).

Well, its performance on an impala was lackluster. Lethal, but lacking. It did not exit, which provided a chance to see what actually happened, a complete jacket core separation.

The cartridge is fully capable of taking larger plains game well, but not reliably with that particular bullet. I thought it may be bonded - it was clearly not. Fortunately, I had other rifles for other quarry.

While lethal, I consider it a failure, as on larger game it would have been problematic. An a-frame, partition or any number of other bullets would be far more effective.

 

[Rule 303]

Impala are not a big animal. I doubt that bullet would have made little more than half way through a Wildebeest or larger animal.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I wish I could get 250 grain Grandslams for my Whelen. Nothing else shoots a 5 shot group that looks like 4 shots cloverleafing.

@Rule 303
if you can get them try some good old fashioned Hornady 250gn round nose. They do the same in my Whelen and @2,680fps the really packs some serious hurt.
Bob

 

[Rule 303]

Bob, have tried them and they are good but the Woodleigh's group just as well so I will stay with them when my Speer's run out.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob, have tried them and they are good but the Woodleigh's group just as well so I will stay with them when my Speer's run out.

@Rule 303
For hunting NZ the old Hornady would be fine and a fraction the cost of Woodleigh. More bang for less $$$
The Hornady round nose worked fine in Namibia on a big gemsbok bull.
Bob

 

[Rule 303]

@Rule 303
For hunting NZ the old Hornady would be fine and a fraction the cost of Woodleigh. More bang for less $$$
The Hornady round nose worked fine in Namibia on a big gemsbok bull.
Bob

You over look one very important aspect Bob. I have a metric shit ton of the Woodleigh's and no Hornady's

I do have some Hornady 200 grn spire points but they get used in My 35 Sambar for pigs. The Woodleigh's for Sambar and the Woody's also get used in 358RUM

 

[375Fox]

Yes it’s terrible, federal/ Speer can’t make some bear claws or grand slams for the USA market, and with Woodliegh still in limbo after the fire , swift concentration on small caliber , and basically all RSA bullet Manufacturing not having any distribution in North America.
we have only barns tsx and north fork to rely upon for .375 +

TBBCs are available, but the bullets alone have always been expensive.

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[steve white]

I had a jacket-core separation in a little more modern context. Let me explain…

I was bringing a pre-war 275 Rigby to RSA circa 2019. I felt obligated to bring “275 Rigby“ brass vs “7x57” brass so as to avoid potential hassles at entry. Moreover, I choose to use the factory Hornady 275 Rigby ammunition, as the accuracy was good, rather than shoot it all and develop reloads with a 140 grain swift a-frame or similar (which I was using in the US in 7x57 marked brass to good effect).

Well, its performance on an impala was lackluster. Lethal, but lacking. It did not exit, which provided a chance to see what actually happened, a complete jacket core separation.

The cartridge is fully capable of taking larger plains game well, but not reliably with that particular bullet. I thought it may be bonded - it was clearly not. Fortunately, I had other rifles for other quarry.

While lethal, I consider it a failure, as on larger game it would have been problematic. An a-frame, partition or any number of other bullets would be far more effective.

Yep, that's my experience with lighter weight Hornady cup and core...nothing to write home about.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I had a jacket-core separation in a little more modern context. Let me explain…

I was bringing a pre-war 275 Rigby to RSA circa 2019. I felt obligated to bring “275 Rigby“ brass vs “7x57” brass so as to avoid potential hassles at entry. Moreover, I choose to use the factory Hornady 275 Rigby ammunition, as the accuracy was good, rather than shoot it all and develop reloads with a 140 grain swift a-frame or similar (which I was using in the US in 7x57 marked brass to good effect).

Well, its performance on an impala was lackluster. Lethal, but lacking. It did not exit, which provided a chance to see what actually happened, a complete jacket core separation.

The cartridge is fully capable of taking larger plains game well, but not reliably with that particular bullet. I thought it may be bonded - it was clearly not. Fortunately, I had other rifles for other quarry.

While lethal, I consider it a failure, as on larger game it would have been problematic. An a-frame, partition or any number of other bullets would be far more effective.

I think this speaks more about your caliber choice than cup and core performance. Yes, light cup and core do not perform well on impact if gassed up, especially at close range. I had bad luck with factory 165 gr CoreLoc 30-06 in the old days so I went back up to 180 gr and they worked great. Most of my shots were less than 70 yards. For moose I eventually stepped up to 190 gr Hornady with good effect (within 100 yards). For Africa 165 Partitions killed plains game well and gave me a bit more distance if needed. But I didn't have to do the butchering.

If distance is desired, then a lighter premium bullet is the answer. Magnum caliber heavier cup and core will do the same job. For medium to close range hunting a medium weight cup and core bullet at medium velocity should not come apart.

 

[MS 9x56]

Yep, that's my experience with lighter weight Hornady cup and core...nothing to write home about.

That’s why I try to stick with heavy for caliber bullets.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You over look one very important aspect Bob. I have a metric shit ton of the Woodleigh's and no Hornady's

I do have some Hornady 200 grn spire points but they get used in My 35 Sambar for pigs. The Woodleigh's for Sambar and the Woody's also get used in 358RUM

@Ruke 303
Maybe you could donate a kilo of 225gn Woodleighs in PPSP or rnsp to a good cause, ME as Woodleigh hasn't got any at the moment.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yep, that's my experience with lighter weight Hornady cup and core...nothing to write home about.

@steve white
The 150gn SST in a 308 holds together well and performance in game is outstanding.
Bob

 

[steve white]

@steve white
The 150gn SST in a 308 holds together well and performance in game is outstanding.
Bob

I have not tried the SST line--mostly had problems with lighter weight boat tail interlocks at their "light magnum" velocities. Even then, the problems I had were on African game, not white tail deer. I know you have killed a lot more and a lot more variety than I have, so I will look into the SST thing.
Were the SST you used flat based, or boat tail?
Also, I have found that just about anything will kill the average feral hog. Whole bunch have been shot with 223 in the States, tho that would seem a bit light to me.