Those thinking about buying a first double rifle

Redleg, I hear you . I'm 76 and going on a PG hunt in April ( my 77th birthday present in May). To me age is just a number. As an old logger once told me, "As long as you keep going, you'll keep going." I kind of took that to heart and it seems to work so far. We'll see what happens on my hunt, but I'm already sort of planning a buff hunt for '19. We only go round once and I want to do all I can while I can.
 
Something I've never quite understood is why the double gun in America is pretty much seen only as a side by side. Europeans have no such bias, and it is very common to see over and under doubles made and used in Germany and Austria and a few other countries. I have wanted a nice German O/U in 9.3x74R for some time. It would be a fun and artistic gun to add to my collection, as well as a very effective and practical arm for hunting moose, elk and bears in the bush of Northern Canada. I suspect it would be equally effective on most medium and large game in Africa, excepting the biggest dangerous game because of the relatively light caliber. I think barrels place over / under make more sense than sxs, aid accurate shooting, and look at least as good to me anyway. And I have shot enough fast action wing shooting with shotguns to know that the old argument that "the larger opening angle of an o/u slows reloads" is incorrect.
So why only the SxS? Is this a case of Anglophile bias?
 
LW, that's an interesting question. "So why only the SxS? Is this an Anglophile bias?"

I spent a day at a local gun shop a decade ago when I was looking at getting a field shotgun. I tried shouldering a number of different shotties, side by sides, over unders, pumps, straight stocks and pistol stocks. In the end, I found that a Browning Citori Superlight Feather in 20ga worked best for me. Hey, O/U, right?

Here's where it gets kind of interesting: when I went to a very high end gun shop a number of years later, I did the same thing. Shouldered a bunch of shotties - including Merkel, Perazzi, Dickenson etc. What amazed me was how the SxS was so much more natural feeling that the O/U's were. In the end, the discovery was that such little details about stock fit, grip, sight height and more made all the difference in the world.

About 4 years ago I went to the SCI show with my wife and we played with a lot of different rifles. I also played with SxS and O/U rifles. What I found again was that the SxS, especially the smaller frame designs (Merkel 141) based on the 28ga frame just worked better.

So, I can't say it's Anglophile or not but it is certainly budget based. O/U always seem to be significantly lower in price which has an impact on rifle fit.
 
Very interesting. I have not had the privilege of handling very many double rifles of either type. I certainly understand that if fit and handling are not good, the rifle is not good.
 
As a double gunner, specifically shotguns, with one exception, rifle over shotgun under.

Fit, comfort, and personal preference is the key to double guns.

The most desirable feature is ejectors. Without ejectors sxs and o/u are cumbersome to quickly reload. Espeacially my 28 gauge o/u.
The breaking of the 12 ga sxs, because of it's larger caliber isn't so bad, unless the birds are flying hot and heavy.
 
Those thinking about buying a first double rifle. I believe that it is common in the USA that most folks think of a double rifle as either too expensive, or not suited to hunting anything smaller than an elephant, or both. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The double rifle is the only rifle you can have that started it's life as a hunting rifle. All other types started out as a war weapon, and then was applied to the hunting fields. Since it is the only true hunting rifle, that should be reason enough to attract hunters in the USA, but for some strange reason this has never happened.

I blame this on ignorance! Now before some of you guys get your feelings hurt, let me explain! Ignorance is nothing but a word that describes the fact that something is not well understood, or not known at all. It has nothing to do with a person's intelligence, but that he simply has not been taught something.

This phenomenon is not limited to the run of the mill hunter, or the guy who is not well up on "GUNOLOGY" , but is rampant among gun writers, and even some of the most well known rifle smiths in the USA, and many other countries. Even people who have taken the big five, and grand slams of all kinds are sadly ignorant when it come to the double rifle. The misconceptions are a bag full, that would slow a train to haul.

In the USA we tend to read the gun rag guys, as if they were reading from scripture, and anything they say has to be correct, simply because they said it. Again we are being mislead, in some cases because the writer is too lazy to do the research, but mostly because they are printing opinion that the think is true.

The double rifle is a complex type of rifle to build and make it shoot properly. no formula, or jig can be made to get away from the tedious work of fitting these things so they work properly. All types of things have been tried to make regulating the barrels easy, and nothing has worked. Most think if you simply make the barrel exactly parallel then the rifle will shoot side by side! So why not simply use a laser to align the barrels and save hours, and hours, plus several rounds of very expensive ammo to regulate the barrels? The reason is it doesn't work.

The barrels have to be laid to not only converge, but to point as crossing, and low, compared to where you want the bullets to hit the target. The double rifle depends on the recoil arch of the rifle, and the speed of the bullet to shoot to where the sights are pointing when the trigger is pulled. IOW, if you place the barrels in a vice with the sights held dead on your target at the iron sight' regulated distance,then with an empty case, with no primer, in each barrel using the primer hole like a peep sight, look through each barrel. What you will see is, the right barrel will be pointing at a place that is low and on the left of where the sights are aligned. The left barrel will be pointing to a place on the right and low in relation to where the sights are aligned. This is necessary because of thing called barrel time. What that means is, when the trigger is pulled on the RIGHT barrel, the rifle rises up and to the RIGHT while the bullet is traveling down that barrel, so that the barrel is pointing to the point the sights were when the trigger was pulled, and Vice-versa for the left barrel. So the double rifle depends on the recoil arch, and the bullet's speed down the tube, to be aligned when that bullet exits the barrel. This converging of the barrels can be done exactly the same with two rifles shooting the same cartridge and they will not shoot the same, so each rifle has to be regulated by it's own rules to work properly. this is one of the reasons even the cheapest double rifle requires over 800 hours of skilled labor to complete, hence the cost of manufacture. However when this is done properly no rifle in the world is more reliable for hunting anything from jackrabbit to elephant depending on the clambering.

More later............................:)
Realize that this is an old post - but hope you are A&W.

I have a 458 Win double rifle that regulates best at: 500 grain bullets/2100 fps. It is striking how the groups shrink as you approach 500 gr/2100fps. If I was to develop loads for other (480, 465, 450 and 400 grain) bullets - would it be best to plan for 2100 fps?

Rick Hill
 
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Fascinating discussion, especially for this old wore-out Aussie who has never handled a double rifle. Love to own one, but funds wasted on other stuff will most likely prevent that.
A few thoughts: If we are parsimonious with our buying of shooting stuff, We/I most likely could afford a double, but; see above. So, instead I'm going single loader, primarily Ruger No 1 based rifles. The latest (last?) is a custom 9.3X64, with good N E C G open sights, and compact NSX Nightforce in Q/D rings. Suitable for much of the US and African larger game? Maybe I should have saved the dough and bought a good, pre-owned mid-caliber double ?
I dunno, please tell me what you good blokes reckon ....
Again, love the discussion ....
 
Fascinating discussion, especially for this old wore-out Aussie who has never handled a double rifle. Love to own one, but funds wasted on other stuff will most likely prevent that.
A few thoughts: If we are parsimonious with our buying of shooting stuff, We/I most likely could afford a double, but; see above. So, instead I'm going single loader, primarily Ruger No 1 based rifles. The latest (last?) is a custom 9.3X64, with good N E C G open sights, and compact NSX Nightforce in Q/D rings. Suitable for much of the US and African larger game? Maybe I should have saved the dough and bought a good, pre-owned mid-caliber double ?
I dunno, please tell me what you good blokes reckon ....
Again, love the discussion ....

Falling block single shot rifles can be quite elegant and many very fine rifles have been made on such a platform (Holland & Holland having turned out some of the finest).
 
Something I've never quite understood is why the double gun in America is pretty much seen only as a side by side. Europeans have no such bias, and it is very common to see over and under doubles made and used in Germany and Austria and a few other countries. I have wanted a nice German O/U in 9.3x74R for some time. It would be a fun and artistic gun to add to my collection, as well as a very effective and practical arm for hunting moose, elk and bears in the bush of Northern Canada. I suspect it would be equally effective on most medium and large game in Africa, excepting the biggest dangerous game because of the relatively light caliber. I think barrels place over / under make more sense than sxs, aid accurate shooting, and look at least as good to me anyway. And I have shot enough fast action wing shooting with shotguns to know that the old argument that "the larger opening angle of an o/u slows reloads" is incorrect.
So why only the SxS? Is this a case of Anglophile bias?

I do think it is largely due to bias in that English made has always been preferred (by pretty much everyone) and SxS has long been the norm. Having said that, though, a couple of the very best double rifles I have ever seen were O/U and were made by Boss & Co.

In a light caliber I would very much opt for the O/U platform, for a number of reasons (unless a Purdey happened to cross my path...the Beesley action would lead to a wonderful little double). When it comes to a heavy, though, SxS all the way.

When it comes to doubles in America, overwhelmingly cost has been the impediment which has prevented adoption and therefore the dissemination of knowledge. The bolt action just makes so much sense on so many levels.
 
Single barrel rifles and shotguns are always cheaper (and easier) to manufacture. The most expensive production pump or automatic shotgun a company makes is often going to be cheaper than the cheapest O/U (for example Beretta A400 upland $1800 MSRP, Beretta Silver Pigeon I $2350 MSRP). Mostly this seems to be a labor issue so companies contract the work out to Turkey or Brazil if they want to keep the MSRP competitive with their pump and auto offerings.

Sure you can spend as much as you like on a turn bolt rifle and I have seen extremely expensive custom bolt rifles out there but I believe that most of the cost on those comes from craftsmanship, embellishment, and material (gold plating, fine woods, hand engraving, etc). However, a sturdy, reliable, production repeater like a Model 70 safari can be had for quite a bit less than the cost of even the cheapest double rifles I've seen (not accounting for good deals on used guns).

FWIW I would love to have a double in a lighter rimmed cartridge (like 303 British) but from a practical standpoint, there is little advantage to me over a decent bolt rifle of moderate cost (not even bottom of the barrel).

This does make me wonder why Turkish shotgun makers like Huglu have never tried to make a moderately priced double rifle. I have a CZ Canvasback and could see the attraction of a similarly styled/priced rifle.
 
Single barrel rifles and shotguns are always cheaper (and easier) to manufacture. The most expensive production pump or automatic shotgun a company makes is often going to be cheaper than the cheapest O/U (for example Beretta A400 upland $1800 MSRP, Beretta Silver Pigeon I $2350 MSRP). Mostly this seems to be a labor issue so companies contract the work out to Turkey or Brazil if they want to keep the MSRP competitive with their pump and auto offerings.

Sure you can spend as much as you like on a turn bolt rifle and I have seen extremely expensive custom bolt rifles out there but I believe that most of the cost on those comes from craftsmanship, embellishment, and material (gold plating, fine woods, hand engraving, etc). However, a sturdy, reliable, production repeater like a Model 70 safari can be had for quite a bit less than the cost of even the cheapest double rifles I've seen (not accounting for good deals on used guns).

FWIW I would love to have a double in a lighter rimmed cartridge (like 303 British) but from a practical standpoint, there is little advantage to me over a decent bolt rifle of moderate cost (not even bottom of the barrel).

This does make me wonder why Turkish shotgun makers like Huglu have never tried to make a moderately priced double rifle. I have a CZ Canvasback and could see the attraction of a similarly styled/priced rifle.

You need to handle (and price) a Cosmi semi-auto 12 bore some day. Always an exception to the rule. And of course Krieghoff, Heym, Merkel, Springer et al make and have made some truly spectacular single shots, many of which fall into the "if you have to ask ...." category.

Vertically stacked rifles are every bit as accurate as a SxS (usually more so), somewhat easier to regulate during manufacture, and much easier to scope. The one claimed advantage of the SxS is that it is quicker to reload due to shorter barrel drop during the process - maybe. Due to their popularity in Europe, I would wager twice as many OU rifles are built per year than are SxS double rifles. The SxS rifle was a British fixation - particular in dangerous game calibers. Americans tend to read and understand English somewhat better than German, and in the first half of the 20th century were guided by English speaking PH's in East Africa. The SxS convention was naturally adopted here.
 
You need to handle (and price) a Cosmi semi-auto 12 bore some day. Always an exception to the rule. And of course Krieghoff, Heym, Merkel, Springer et al make and have made some truly spectacular single shots, many of which fall into the "if you have to ask ...." category.

Had to look it up and that is a fascinating shotgun (Cosmi) and pricey to boot on guns international. It looks like a pretty elaborate design. Perhaps that has a bit to do with the price like a Swiss watch? Lots of hand fitting? I dunno.

I expect that demand is a huge factor too. It looks like Cosmi has gone the few and expensive route as opposed to the many and cheaper route Beretta has. If the Cosmi design is complicated than it probably wouldn't lend itself to that business strategy anyway (as opposed to say, a Franchi Affinity). Which may be related to the cost of doubles. The need to carefully regulate both barrels makes modern mass production less feasible (coupled with lower demand, at least in the US).

Single shots always seemed odd to me in that they seem to either be extremely cheap or extremely expensive. With the exception of maybe the Thompson Contender, there doesn't seem to be a middle road with them. It may be related to why the buyer wants one. A dad may want a cheap single shot for his child to shoot until they get a bolt gun whereas an experienced and wealthy hunter may want a finely crafted single shot to take abroad.
 
On useing double rifle to hunt the North American Continent, I am one of the four founding fathers of the DRSS (Double Rifle Shooter's Society) Double Rifle Shooters Society , and we have member all over the world. One member lives in Moscow Russia, and is starting a Russian chapter there. We, as a group hunt almost exclusively with double rifles from jackrabbit to mastadon. The calibers range form one member's S/S .22 lr double rifle to one members 4 bore double rifle. Among that group of shooters there are many chamberings in the 7mm to 9.3 cal double rifles, that are not only easy to shoot, but are perfect for use on North American game animals from varmint to Brown bear. Many of these are O/U double rifles, which are much cheaper to buy than the S/S versions. Most of the mid size chambered double rifles are fitted with scopes of all powers, and some illuminated for better sight pictures in fadeing light, all have quailty iron sights as well, some with fiber-optic inserts. However all the scoped double rifles are fitted with quality quick detach rings and bases, so the scopes can be installed, or removed as needed, the best of all worlds. We have a get together hunt about two a year, where we use those double rifles to hunt feral hogs. Member come to those hunts from many countries, several are PHs from Africa, and from the States, and Canada we have hunter come from just about every state and porvence. Believe me hogs, deer, and any other thing on the bag list do not want to show up in front of these guys within 300 yds! So the contention that double rifles are somhow inaccurate, or are only good off the muzzle is a pipedream. I certainly do not advise anyone to stand at 300 yds thinking I can't hit him with any double rifle I own!:D

545_4K_Ranch_January_2007_Frozen_Hogs.jpg


The picture above was one day's kill in Jan 2008, all with double rifles, but in Jan 2009 12 hunters killed 31 wild hogs in two days on 96,000 acres of low fence ranch, all shot with double rifles that ranged from 7x65Rimmed , to 577NE, some with scopes and many with irons only . Sounds pretty well suited to North American hunting to me! What-cha think?:confused:
How can I join the DR club. I just purchased a Rizzini Double rifle in 470 NE.
 
Those thinking about buying a first double rifle. I believe that it is common in the USA that most folks think of a double rifle as either too expensive, or not suited to hunting anything smaller than an elephant, or both. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The double rifle is the only rifle you can have that started it's life as a hunting rifle. All other types started out as a war weapon, and then was applied to the hunting fields. Since it is the only true hunting rifle, that should be reason enough to attract hunters in the USA, but for some strange reason this has never happened.

I blame this on ignorance! Now before some of you guys get your feelings hurt, let me explain! Ignorance is nothing but a word that describes the fact that something is not well understood, or not known at all. It has nothing to do with a person's intelligence, but that he simply has not been taught something.

This phenomenon is not limited to the run of the mill hunter, or the guy who is not well up on "GUNOLOGY" , but is rampant among gun writers, and even some of the most well known rifle smiths in the USA, and many other countries. Even people who have taken the big five, and grand slams of all kinds are sadly ignorant when it come to the double rifle. The misconceptions are a bag full, that would slow a train to haul.

In the USA we tend to read the gun rag guys, as if they were reading from scripture, and anything they say has to be correct, simply because they said it. Again we are being mislead, in some cases because the writer is too lazy to do the research, but mostly because they are printing opinion that the think is true.

The double rifle is a complex type of rifle to build and make it shoot properly. no formula, or jig can be made to get away from the tedious work of fitting these things so they work properly. All types of things have been tried to make regulating the barrels easy, and nothing has worked. Most think if you simply make the barrel exactly parallel then the rifle will shoot side by side! So why not simply use a laser to align the barrels and save hours, and hours, plus several rounds of very expensive ammo to regulate the barrels? The reason is it doesn't work.

The barrels have to be laid to not only converge, but to point as crossing, and low, compared to where you want the bullets to hit the target. The double rifle depends on the recoil arch of the rifle, and the speed of the bullet to shoot to where the sights are pointing when the trigger is pulled. IOW, if you place the barrels in a vice with the sights held dead on your target at the iron sight' regulated distance,then with an empty case, with no primer, in each barrel using the primer hole like a peep sight, look through each barrel. What you will see is, the right barrel will be pointing at a place that is low and on the left of where the sights are aligned. The left barrel will be pointing to a place on the right and low in relation to where the sights are aligned. This is necessary because of thing called barrel time. What that means is, when the trigger is pulled on the RIGHT barrel, the rifle rises up and to the RIGHT while the bullet is traveling down that barrel, so that the barrel is pointing to the point the sights were when the trigger was pulled, and Vice-versa for the left barrel. So the double rifle depends on the recoil arch, and the bullet's speed down the tube, to be aligned when that bullet exits the barrel. This converging of the barrels can be done exactly the same with two rifles shooting the same cartridge and they will not shoot the same, so each rifle has to be regulated by it's own rules to work properly. this is one of the reasons even the cheapest double rifle requires over 800 hours of skilled labor to complete, hence the cost of manufacture. However when this is done properly no rifle in the world is more reliable for hunting anything from jackrabbit to elephant depending on the clambering.

More later............................:)
I love my new Rizzini in 470 NE. Went to range today and off two leg sticks everything within one inch with Trijicon scope at 25 yards. My problem is training to shoot off hand without sticks. All over the place. Also I bought two shirts with the moldable shoulder pad...OMG what a huge difference. Recoil did not bother me at all
 
I love my new Rizzini in 470 NE. Went to range today and off two leg sticks everything within one inch with Trijicon scope at 25 yards. My problem is training to shoot off hand without sticks. All over the place. Also I bought two shirts with the moldable shoulder pad...OMG what a huge difference. Recoil did not bother me at all

One thing I would suggest is to use a sling. A "hasty sling" is very fast to deploy and makes a huge difference in stability.
 
Thought of or thinking of getting a double rifle?... Yah, thought about it once. One of the overriding issues (not the only one however) for me was and is they are simply too much money for a tool that is largely collected and used by a hunter as an artifact of history for show and anachronism. Nothing wrong with having them and liking them, but for a tool at the high price point of a quality double, I cannot justify it any more than I can justify flying business class. More power to those who can afford double rifles and business class. :)

I guess there is a best use, relatively small, niche purpose for the double for a very narrow set of circumstances, mostly as a backup that may require two pretty fast shots at very close range. The need for a close range double tap shot has never been part of my thinking for hunting. And with experience and practice, a slick operating bolt is pretty darn fast. Except for the use as a fast, close range two shot gun, the open sighted double rifle is not the equal of a scoped bolt rifle under most other hunting circumstances. If I can put three or four shots in fairly rapid succession from a 375 or 416 into a 6 inch circle, from point blank out to 250 yards, there is little doubt in my mind which type of rifle is best suited for my hunting.

When I did a lot of bird hunting I always liked the SxS shotgun. Fast handling, sleek and joy to shoot especially if the fit was right. Patterns true to where I look with the large sight plane... that the eyes use only as a peripheral reference for instinctive shooting anyway... no matter what others say about the narrower plane of the O/U, especially those who invested big bucks in the hype of the O/U which swept though the market. Sorry, I've owned and shot both a lot and prefer the SxS over the O/U shotgun by a wide margin. The only shotgun that may match a good SxS for effective upland wing shooting, is a good autoloader.

My limited time with other's double rifles surely does not make me any kind of expert. Far from it. But, the limited experience with them clearly showed me, FOR ME, they are nothing like handling a well designed upland SxS shotgun. To me, they seem muzzle heavy, slow and somewhat clumsy .... in many ways just the opposite "feel" of a lithe, well fitted upland SxS shotgun. I messed around a little with a 6 figure double once, in 500 NE IIRC. Same feel as the other double rifles I'd tried, muzzle heavy, slow and somewhat clumsy.
 
Is that even possible? I know for Heym that would require 2 different sized actions.
I dunno if it's possible. It's just something that I'd like to have in my life. I'm sure they'll build it if you ask.
 
...

My limited time with other's double rifles surely does not make me any kind of expert. Far from it. But, the limited experience with them clearly showed me, FOR ME, they are nothing like handling a well designed upland SxS shotgun. To me, they seem muzzle heavy, slow and somewhat clumsy .... in many ways just the opposite "feel" of a lithe, well fitted upland SxS shotgun. I messed around a little with a 6 figure double once, in 500 NE IIRC. Same feel as the other double rifles I'd tried, muzzle heavy, slow and somewhat clumsy.

You are comparing apples and oranges. My SxS shotguns are around 6 pounds. My .500 NE double rifle is over 10 lbs.

Also, I don't get why you think the double rifles are muzzle heavy. Both the shotguns and the double rifles I have balance at about the same spot in front of the action. I think because the rifles are heavier you think they are muzzle heavy. I'll agree to them being slower to bring around due to weight but the application is not quite the same as swinging at a fast moving pheasant either. It is a lot more deliberate.
 

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thriller wrote on Bronkatowski1's profile.
Until this guy posts something on pay it forward free I would avoid him at all costs.
sgtsabai wrote on Buck51's profile.
If it hasn't sold by next week I might be interested. Stock would have to be changed along with some other items. I'm already having a 416 Rigby built so money is a tad bit tight.
The35Whelen wrote on MedRiver's profile.
Hey pal! I'll take all the .375 bullets if they're available.
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