thats why I dont like doubles (have one)

[Ontario Hunter]

I would really like to hear exactly what the PH was thinking when he said that was a “pretty good shot”. I have a pretty good idea, because I have been there many times before. The last thing a PH wants to do is ruin his clients moment of glory. Deep down inside they both know the shot was for crap. No different than when your wife says “do I look fat” as the two of you are going out for dinner on your tenth anniversary dinner. Your answer may determine your future.

Lon

Well, the answer will determine the future of the rest of the evening, that's for sure!

Like the video I saw with the PH standing over the dead buffalo: "You shot it seven times. Good job!" Really? What would be a crappy job? Twenty holes in it? Sorry, but I'd never need a tip that badly. Just find something else to talk about. "Glad we have that out of the way. I've been needing to pinch a loaf all morning. Now, if you'll excuse me ..."

 

[Scott CWO]

Ahhh! Yes, I jammed up my Winchester 338 Win while I was blasting at a brown bear. Luckily, I broke his front shoulders with the previous shot and he went down. I must have short stroked the bolt because my rifle was then firmly jammed, something that hadn't happened before and I didn't know how I had managed it.

Thanks!

Does anyone know of a practice or training regime to help prevent short stroking the bolt?

According to what their wives tell me, some guys are just short strokers. Lol. Sorry, couldn’t resist!

 

[HankBuck]

If the magazine box is excessively long or cartridge OAL excessively short,  recoil can potentially pitch the cartridges to the front which may leave the rim ahead of the ejector. Then there's a potential for short stroke. Because there's no recoil during practice when no live rounds are fired, there's no rearward energy to pitch the cartridges to the front of the box. Even at the range most of us with fixed magazines usually fire them single shot. I know I have never loaded a magazine at the range. Even my 760 Rem with detachable magazine is shot one round at a time at the range.

This is the reason reloaders are encouraged to crimp harsh recoil ammo, especially if it's used for dangerous game hunting.

Ontario, when I’m sighting in at the range its One round at a time but “practice” is always how I would shoot in the field - so I feed from the mag for 2-3 shots and from all shooting positions. I had No issues feeding or short stroking my .375 H&H built on Sako action. It was the only ‘trap door mag” I own and I did Not care for it, plus the mag only held 3 rounds and because it was CRF = i always fed the 1st round from the Mag. I wanted to see if I could get the rifle 3+1 and played around opening the trap door and feeding a cartridge in from the bottom. It was a clumsy way to get an extra round in but I managed to do it and it was able to fire 4 rounds reliable - IN PRACTICE. But, it failed me in the field and I am “guessing” my loading of the extra round into the mag might of been the reason… I’m not sure and could’ve been me short stroking…anyway won’t try it again because if my 1st shot had Not killed that Grizz it might of gotten messy and my Guide would’ve needed to put a round in him while I “fumbled around” like a woman trying to chamber another round.

 

[HankBuck]

Ontario, when I’m sighting in at the range its One round at a time but “practice” is always how I would shoot in the field - so I feed from the mag for 2-3 shots and from all shooting positions. I had No issues feeding or short stroking my .375 H&H built on Sako action. It was the only ‘trap door mag” I own and I did Not care for it, plus the mag only held 3 rounds and because it was CRF = i always fed the 1st round from the Mag. I wanted to see if I could get the rifle 3+1 and played around opening the trap door and feeding a cartridge in from the bottom. It was a clumsy way to get an extra round in but I managed to do it and it was able to fire 4 rounds reliable - IN PRACTICE. But, it failed me in the field and I am “guessing” my loading of the extra round into the mag might of been the reason… I’m not sure and could’ve been me short stroking…anyway won’t try it again because if my 1st shot had Not killed that Grizz it might of gotten messy and my Guide would’ve needed to put a round in him while I “fumbled around” like a woman trying to chamber another round.

CORRECTION: My .375 was build on a Winchester CRF action

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ontario, when I’m sighting in at the range its One round at a time but “practice” is always how I would shoot in the field - so I feed from the mag for 2-3 shots and from all shooting positions. I had No issues feeding or short stroking my .375 H&H built on Sako action. It was the only ‘trap door mag” I own and I did Not care for it, plus the mag only held 3 rounds and because it was CRF = i always fed the 1st round from the Mag. I wanted to see if I could get the rifle 3+1 and played around opening the trap door and feeding a cartridge in from the bottom. It was a clumsy way to get an extra round in but I managed to do it and it was able to fire 4 rounds reliable - IN PRACTICE. But, it failed me in the field and I am “guessing” my loading of the extra round into the mag might of been the reason… I’m not sure and could’ve been me short stroking…anyway won’t try it again because if my 1st shot had Not killed that Grizz it might of gotten messy and my Guide would’ve needed to put a round in him while I “fumbled around” like a woman trying to chamber another round.

Yeah, trap door loading can be fussy even if only dropping in three. I discovered that in Africa when hunting buffalo with my newly built 404J. The Swift bottom metal is for 415 Rem and I used a magnum follower from New England Custom Gun. All worked well loading from the top but when dropping a third round in the box through the trap door after loading one in the chamber, the rounds MUST be stacked correctly or the first one to feed will jam when cycling out the round in the chamber. Fortunately, the discovery was made when unloading the chambered round after the first failed stalk. I later learned there was enough room in the box for me to push the fourth round under the extractor which is just enough for me to close the bolt and keep the three in the magazine. No more loading from the bottom to get a fourth round in the chamber.

The problem arrises when the follower is closed on a cartridge stacked against the wrong side of the receiver, i.e. against the same side as the ridge keeper on the follower. When stacking shells through an open floor plate, make sure the order is such that the last shell in is against the opposite side of receiver. This requires tipping the rifle to the proper side when dropping in the first round in the stack. Almost rocket science. Loading the final round through the floor plate is a huge pain in the ass. Glad I figured out a way around it.

Due to paucity of components, I only zeroed the 404J. Any firing position practice has to be dry fire and is primarily for fast acquisition and learning the trigger. Even when components are available, I've never felt the need to live fire practice cycling my bolt actions as I have been hunting with them for sixty years. Overdoing it at the range with that thumper could be unnecesarily dangerous for my fragile eyes. Also, I think it tends to promote flinching more than prevent it.

 

[Philip Glass]

So what you are saying is that it is entirely the clients fault for not thoroughly testing his rifle before going on a DG hunt. Who else would be at fault in this case?

Fortunately it was of little consequence as the PH was able to sort it out.

If he had a double or an R8 there would be no jam

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The palm of hand cycling of the bolt makes it impossible to short stroke

I can't let this slide. Not when it may be a matter of life and death for some uninitiated reader. "Palm of hand" or "open palm" method of working the bolt is purely ornamental. It will not ensure against short stroking. Short stroking is about the bolt not being pulled back far enough to eject a spent case and then being closed while the bolt face is picking up the next round in the box. How one's hand contacts the bolt handle has nothing to do with the mechanics of short stroking. This like the old classic straight drop bolt handle being somehow faster to cycle than swept back bent bolt handle. It just ain't so.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It appears there may be two ways "short stroking" could cause a problem cycling.

1) As described above, the bolt is not drawn back far enough to eject the spent case and bolt is then closed picking up the next round in the magazine. I am unable to make either of my former military actions do this but suspect it may be more of an issue with factory CRF magnum actions with more or less standardized bottom metal. Or reloaded ammo that is either not crimped or too short OAL.

2) The other potential short stroke issue arises when the spent case is not drawn back far enough to eject and bolt is closed on an empty case. This, it would seem to me anyway, would not necessarily result in a serious jam, just a misfire easily corrected by cycling again correctly. However, large calibers without sharp shoulder cases might be more inclined to be "jammed" when trying to force an empty case back in the chamber. Edges of the large throat empty case could catch on the side of receiver ahead of the chamber. I would think much less potential of this happening with sharp shouldered narrow throat cases. In any event, the "jam" should be easily cleared by cycling again provided the gun has a healthy extractor.

Problem #1 is entirely a CRF potential issue while #2 can also occur with push feed. In fact, #2 might be more of an issue with push feed Rem 700 type actions. The empty case is ejected the moment the end clears the ejection port. Shooter sees the empty case flying out of the rifle and instinctively closes the bolt before the next round is picked up. CLICK. For CRF like Mauser 98, the empty case is not ejected until the END of bolt being drawn back. If the action, magazine, and ammo are all correctly designed and in concert, the empty case  should eject just before the next round in magazine is picked up by bolt face. If the shooter does not see the empty case eject, he KNOWS the bolt has not been drawn back far enough to engage the next round in the magazine. An experienced shooter will not close the bolt till the empty ejects. CRF actions have a safeguard in that respect that is missing from push feed. Push feed operator can much more easily mistakenly close the bolt on an empty chamber than a CRF action.

Hank's grizzly bear issue I'm sure had nothing to do with short stroking, CRF, or push feed. I'll bet my crusty shorts the jam was caused by loading from the trap door floorplate. Any PH or outfitter who is using these guns as loners for clients hunting dangerous game should be loading the extra +1 round for clients. My experience is it's too complicated for novices.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It appears there may be two ways "short stroking" could cause a problem cycling.

1) As described above, the bolt is not drawn back far enough to eject the spent case and bolt is then closed picking up the next round in the magazine. I am unable to make either of my former military actions do this but suspect it may be more of an issue with factory CRF magnum actions with more or less standardized bottom metal. Or reloaded ammo that is either not crimped or too short OAL.

2) The other potential short stroke issue arises when the spent case is not drawn back far enough to eject and bolt is closed on an empty case. This, it would seem to me anyway, would not necessarily result in a serious jam, just a misfire easily corrected by cycling again correctly. However, large calibers without sharp shoulder cases might be more inclined to be "jammed" when trying to force an empty case back in the chamber. Edges of the large throat empty case could catch on the side of receiver ahead of the chamber. I would think much less potential of this happening with sharp shouldered narrow throat cases. In any event, the "jam" should be easily cleared by cycling again provided the gun has a healthy extractor.

Problem #1 is entirely a CRF potential issue while #2 can also occur with push feed. In fact, #2 might be more of an issue with push feed Rem 700 type actions. The empty case is ejected the moment the end clears the ejection port. Shooter sees the empty case flying out of the rifle and instinctively closes the bolt before the next round is picked up. CLICK. For CRF like Mauser 98, the empty case is not ejected until the END of bolt being drawn back. If the action, magazine, and ammo are all correctly designed and in concert, the empty case  should eject just before the next round in magazine is picked up by bolt face. If the shooter does not see the empty case eject, he KNOWS the bolt has not been drawn back far enough to engage the next round in the magazine. An experienced shooter will not close the bolt till the empty ejects. CRF actions have a safeguard in that respect that is missing from push feed. Push feed operator can much more easily mistakenly close the bolt on an empty chamber than a CRF action.

Hank's grizzly bear issue I'm sure had nothing to do with short stroking, CRF, or push feed. I'll bet my crusty shorts the jam was caused by loading from the trap door floorplate. Any PH or outfitter who is using these guns as loners for clients hunting dangerous game should be loading the extra +1 round for clients. My experience is it's too complicated for novices.

The caveat to above: Any PH or outfitter using CRF rental rifles designed to accommodate extractor snap over on the +1 cartridge can probably adequately instruct even a novice hunter how to ensure the gun is safely loaded to full capacity. Drop a round in the chamber, depress cartridges in the magazine with left hand, and close the bolt with right hand. Personally, I'm thinking even experienced hunters should reconsider loading through the trapdoor, especially when hunting dangerous game.

 

[BeeMaa]

If he had a double or an R8 there would be no jam

Agreed. Good thing his lack of preparedness didn't get someone injured or worse.

It's also pretty easy to pick out the mistakes from a keyboard...in slow motion...with replay ability. Actions taken in real time do not have these luxuries. Which is why it's so important to develop good muscle memory and test your equipment to its limits.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

If he had a double or an R8 there would be no jam

If you don’t draw the bolt all the back on any rifle, even a straight pull, it will jam.

 

[IvW]

I can't let this slide. Not when it may be a matter of life and death for some uninitiated reader. "Palm of hand" or "open palm" method of working the bolt is purely ornamental. It will not ensure against short stroking. Short stroking is about the bolt not being pulled back far enough to eject a spent case and then being closed while the bolt face is picking up the next round in the box. How one's hand contacts the bolt handle has nothing to do with the mechanics of short stroking. This like the old classic straight drop bolt handle being somehow faster to cycle than swept back bent bolt handle. It just ain't so.

You are clearly clearly confused.....again....many have been over this more than once.....yet you insist you know....yet you dont...

 

[CoElkHunter]

I can't let this slide. Not when it may be a matter of life and death for some uninitiated reader. "Palm of hand" or "open palm" method of working the bolt is purely ornamental. It will not ensure against short stroking. Short stroking is about the bolt not being pulled back far enough to eject a spent case and then being closed while the bolt face is picking up the next round in the box. How one's hand contacts the bolt handle has nothing to do with the mechanics of short stroking. This like the old classic straight drop bolt handle being somehow faster to cycle than swept back bent bolt handle. It just ain't so.

No Rosy palming or short stroking anything allowed on this forum! LOL

 

[Philip Glass]

If you don’t draw the bolt all the back on any rifle, even a straight pull, it will jam.

Only partly true. My Ruger was proven to not eject when worked hard in a stress situation. It happened to me on the leopard hound hunt and I replicated the fault at home. After my experience I will shout from the mountain tops for everyone to try to break their rifle at home before a DG hunt! Know what the hell it will do in a bad situation.

My funny R8 story is as follows: I was in ATL clearing customs after the leopard charge. I happened to be visiting with award winning hunter Brian Harlan (who I have subsequently gotten to know) and I was relating my story of my rifle jamming at the worst moment. Without skipping a beat he said "that's why I shoot an R8!"
This planted the seed that has grown into near fanaticism with me and the R8.

 

[Philip Glass]

Agreed. Good thing his lack of preparedness didn't get someone injured or worse.

It's also pretty easy to pick out the mistakes from a keyboard...in slow motion...with replay ability. Actions taken in real time do not have these luxuries. Which is why it's so important to develop good muscle memory and test your equipment to its limits.

You are right. I am never trying to throw stones but trying to analyze so as to not make the mistake.
I like the idea we proposed to our 4H shotgun shooting sports kids years ago. That was to sit in your living room and practice mounting and acquiring a target (gun unloaded of course). I used to do this with pistols as well. It does not take long and you really know your gun.
I like the idea of going to the range to prep for a DG hunt with a friend who will scream at you while you try to load and shoot! Any similar scenario would work.

 

[HankBuck]

Only partly true. My Ruger was proven to not eject when worked hard in a stress situation. It happened to me on the leopard hound hunt and I replicated the fault at home. After my experience I will shout from the mountain tops for everyone to try to break their rifle at home before a DG hunt! Know what the hell it will do in a bad situation.

My funny R8 story is as follows: I was in ATL clearing customs after the leopard charge. I happened to be visiting with award winning hunter Brian Harlan (who I have subsequently gotten to know) and I was relating my story of my rifle jamming at the worst moment. Without skipping a beat he said "that's why I shoot an R8!"
This planted the seed that has grown into near fanaticism with me and the R8.

QUESTION: What is an “Award Winning Hunter”? What does that mean?

 

[BeeMaa]

You are right. I am never trying to throw stones but trying to analyze so as to not make the mistake.
I like the idea we proposed to our 4H shotgun shooting sports kids years ago. That was to sit in your living room and practice mounting and acquiring a target (gun unloaded of course). I used to do this with pistols as well. It does not take long and you really know your gun.
I like the idea of going to the range to prep for a DG hunt with a friend who will scream at you while you try to load and shoot! Any similar scenario would work.

For every live shot I take at the range there are about 10 to 20 dry fire shots taken in my living room. See the target, mount the rifle, find it in the scope, disengage the safety, settle your breathing/heart rate, slowly squeeze the trigger and follow through. Reload for a follow up shot and do it again. I tend to shoot in pairs planning for a follow-up shot.

Do this enough times and your brain will start to figure out the little things to make it feel nearly automatic. Then your weekend live range session becomes more of a verification of the practice you've put in during the week. Talk about saving money on ammo.

 

[IvW]

Only partly true. My Ruger was proven to not eject when worked hard in a stress situation. It happened to me on the leopard hound hunt and I replicated the fault at home. After my experience I will shout from the mountain tops for everyone to try to break their rifle at home before a DG hunt! Know what the hell it will do in a bad situation.

My funny R8 story is as follows: I was in ATL clearing customs after the leopard charge. I happened to be visiting with award winning hunter Brian Harlan (who I have subsequently gotten to know) and I was relating my story of my rifle jamming at the worst moment. Without skipping a beat he said "that's why I shoot an R8!"
This planted the seed that has grown into near fanaticism with me and the R8.

I uave always said Rugers and Rem M700 are poor platforms for DG rifles but always get falck about it.....thanks for sharing

 

[Ontario Hunter]

QUESTION: What is an “Award Winning Hunter”? What does that mean?

I'm sure it's an SCI thing. They have a slew of different "achievement" awards for various categories of trophy collecting.

 

[Altitude sickness]

As a coincidence my wife was practicing this morning.

I give her something out the front window to aim at. She has to quickly find it, aim. Dry fire and cycle the bolt using dummy loads.

Since it’s so fast to set up and do your more likely to do it more often