Swift A-frames in low velocity cartridges?

matt85

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ive used Swift bullets with great success in cartridges such as the 7x57, 375 H&H, and 416 RM. but i havent tried them yet in low velocity cartridges such as nitro express cartridges. im considering them for the 450 NE 3.25" (assuming they will regulate) and the 505 Gibbs cartridge. but i wonder if the very low velocities these cartridges produce will properly expand the tough A-frame bullet before it hits the vitals on a typical broad side shot on a buffalo?

the velocities in question are:
- 500gr .458" at 2050fps (impact velocity will likely be around 1900fps)
- 570gr .505" at 2150fps (impact velocity will likely be around 2000fps)

im concerned the A-frame will actually be too sturdy assuming it doesnt hit a major bone. im sure the bullet would fully expand by the time it reaches the off side of the animal but that doesnt mean much if it wasnt expanded when it passed threw the lungs/heart. in all of Swift's pictures it shows almost no expansion on the low end of the velocity spectrum which isnt promising.

thoughts?

-matt
 

shuter

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ive used Swift bullets with great success in cartridges such as the 7x57, 375 H&H, and 416 RM. but i havent tried them yet in low velocity cartridges such as nitro express cartridges. im considering them for the 450 NE 3.25" (assuming they will regulate) and the 505 Gibbs cartridge. but i wonder if the very low velocities these cartridges produce will properly expand the tough A-frame bullet before it hits the vitals on a typical broad side shot on a buffalo?

the velocities in question are:
- 500gr .458" at 2050fps (impact velocity will likely be around 1900fps)
- 570gr .505" at 2150fps (impact velocity will likely be around 2000fps)

im concerned the A-frame will actually be too sturdy assuming it doesnt hit a major bone. im sure the bullet would fully expand by the time it reaches the off side of the animal but that doesnt mean much if it wasnt expanded when it passed threw the lungs/heart. in all of Swift's pictures it shows almost no expansion on the low end of the velocity spectrum which isnt promising.

thoughts?

-matt
Matt, the following is from Swift's website. I'd looked into your question on my own awhile back, and their site does an excellent job in not only giving parameters for expansion, but also showing pics. Go to this link and scroll down to "Heavy A-Frame Rifle Bullets": http://www.swiftbullets.com/products-s/1819.htm

"Heavy rifle A-Frame bullets are for use on dangerous game. The bullet initiates expansion at 1650 feet per second on the low end and stays together at 3000+ feet per second on the high end. Controlled expansion of 2x its original caliber and 95%+ weight retention make the A-Frame® bullet superior in downrange energy and stopping power. Terminal performance is unequaled."
 

matt85

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i read that as well. but given the picture above it, id say expansion is insuffient until 2300 fps.

-matt
 

Velo Dog

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Matt,

Even though you are about the unluckiest guy I know, nonetheless I would bet you a bottle of Oban 14 Year Single Malt that you will have no failure to expand on buffalo or any heavy animal, dangerous or not, from your .450 NE / 500 gr @ 2050 fps muzzle velocity and - or your .505 Gibbs / 570 gr @ 2150 fps muzzle velocity.
This is of course is to incluse impact velocities being accordingly somewhat less, the further from the muzzles your animals are when hit with the A-Frame bullets from the calibers described.

If I am right or if I am wrong about this, either way I look forward to your next visit to Anchorage, so that we can have another wee drop of Oban however it all turns out.

Cheers mate,
Paul.
 

matt85

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Velo i would be more then happy to make another trip up to that fine state of yours! we oughta set up some kind of fishing or hunting trip in the future.

i posted this thread because i havent seen any A-frame reviews using heavy slow cartridges. id be very interested to hear detailed reports on the damage done using A-frames in cartridges such as the 450/400 NE 3", 450 NE 3.25",458 WM, 470 NE, and 500 NE 3".

-matt
 

shuter

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i read that as well. but given the picture above it, id say expansion is insuffient until 2300 fps.

-matt
Based on the 1,950 pic, I'd take it in a second.
 

CTDolan

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Matt, they'll work fine, especially in the 505. As you mention, though, regulation in the 450 will be an additional consideration. Sometimes these bullets will not regulate at the appropriate velocity and one finds themselves having to load down, to get the left and right shooting together.
 

matt85

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i called Swift and asked them about it. they said the 505 Gibbs wouldnt be an issue but the guy on the phone hesitated on saying the same for the 450 NE 3.25". he didnt say it wouldnt work but suggested a lighter bullet at a higher speed would be better. i think ill stick to Woodleigh 480gr softs in the 450 NE 3.25".

i also asked him about the availability of solids and he said they were still in the trial stages and werent offering them quite yet. im going t have to see if i can get either the Woodleigh 600gr FMJ or the NF 600gr CPS to match the 570gr A-frame.

-matt
 

CTDolan

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That'd been my approach (stick to the Woodleigh), mainly due to regulation and that it's a perfectly suitable bullet. If it regulated at a respectable velocity, though, I'm sure the Swift would work fine. It may not offer the classic 2x diameter at 2,000-2,050 fps, but do you really need this much? I doubt it.
 

sgt_zim

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I have a similar question with smaller caliber - 6.5x55 and 7x57. Swift's reloading manual #2 data tracks VERY closely with Lyman's #49 for these two cartridges. Swift doesn't say which rifle they used, but Lyman used M/38 and M/95, respectively, for their load data. I'm not looking for magnum velocity, but 2700 fps should be on the table for 140 gr bullets out of either of them.
 

Divernhunter

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I have data from my Tikk T-3 Lite with a 22" barrel that may help. I actually prefer the 120gr A-Frame or the 130gr Scirocco in the 6.5X55. I do use the 140gr A-Frame in my 264win mag.. I have dat for the others if you are interested.

6.5X55 140AF & 130Sc 1.jpg
6.5X55 140AF 1.jpg
6.5X55 140AF 2.jpg
6.5X55 140AF 3.jpg
 
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sgt_zim

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I have data from my Tikk T-3 Lite with a 22" barrel that may help. I actually prefer the 120gr A-Frame or the 130gr Scirocco in the 6.5X55. I do use the 140gr A-Frame in my 264win mag.. I have dat for the others if you are interested.

Wow, the Scirocco was screaming! Good velocity on the A-Frames, too. I figured those velocities were possible with the Swifts.

I have a Tikka T3X LH.

I'm saving all of your notes. Like I said, not looking to turn this into a 264 WinMag, but enough velocity on the front end so I get reliable expansion out to 300 yards is plenty.

I've gone as high as 45.5 gr IMR 4831 with ELD-X 143 gr, which is 3 grains over Hornady's published max.

If you have 7x57 data, that would be great. Trying to figure out what caliber to get my daughter for her graduation present (law school) in 2020 since she seems to REALLY be getting into hunting; and 6.5x55 (since I already own one) and 7x57 are the top two contenders. I'm also looking at 7mm-08, but those are easy loads.
 

Divernhunter

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I do not have a 7X57 but do have a 7-08 and data. I like to hunt with the Scirooco in the 6.5X55 and it has done very well.
 

sgt_zim

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I do not have a 7X57 but do have a 7-08 and data. I like to hunt with the Scirooco in the 6.5X55 and it has done very well.

No issues with modern firearms and modern cartridges, it's the oldie-but-goodies like 6.5x55 and 7x57 where data can be kind of sketchy.

Nosler seems to be the only company that consistently publishes non-vintage loads for those two cartridges.
 
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sgt_zim

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bruce moulds

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i think he was referring to bigger bones.
trouble with this job is having a bullet to do all jobs - probably no such thing.
the swift comes as close as you could get.
regulation of doubles muddies the waters further.
they need to be regulated to be sure of bullet placement, the most important of all.
my own experience with that involved a rigby 450x3 1/4".
using old 480 kynoch bullets was easy, but 500 hornady were also regulated.
burning rate of powder can help here, and in my case imr 4831 proved optimum.
the heavier bullet took more pressure to regulate and for this reason it was unacceptable.
this was lucky, because the hornady bullets turned inside out and lost their cores in wet clay, where the kynoch bullets made perfect mushrooms.
pity the old kynochs are no longer available.
cupro nickel jackets have gone out of fashion, but they worked well in those old bullets.
interestingly some old kynoch ammo offered a percentage of hangfires, not fun to shoot, and could display faults in shooting technique.
loading the old cases with berdan primers was interesting.
do not seat them to the bottom like you do with boxer primers, or a big flame will appear.
bruce.
 

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For solids in big calibers, I love cutting edge solid brass bullets. They seem to produce lower pressure being bore rider designs, and being mono metal, there is very little to fail even on heavy bone. The huge metcap also helps with punching in a straight line.
 

bruce moulds

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the thing with swift aframes at lower striking velocities, is that hey might have the advantages of a soft and a solid in one bullet.
they seem to flatten the nose at lower striking velocity, which will still be a good wounding shape.
bruce.
 

ChrisG

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I think you'll find that the A-Frames will be faster than the woodleighs, which themselves will be faster than most cup'n core bullets given the same powder charge, due to the ridgity of the bullet. It is counter intuitive, but the harder it is to force the bullet into the rifling, the faster it goes due to the pressure that ultimately builds up behind the bullet and the round maintains a higher average pressure throughout the bore. I have seen as much as 150 fps difference due to the construction of the bullet.

As to 6.5x55, (I have never loaded for the 7x57), I have found that reloder 22 gives me the best combination of speed and accuracy with 140s. I also don't push the envelope with these so 2,650 is fine in my book. After all a 140 in a 6.5 has the same SD as a 190 grain .308 diameter bullet. This means that it is as hard for a 6.5 to push a 140 down the barrel as it is for a .30 cal to push a 190 down the barrel. A 6.5x55 is a standard pressure low velocity cartridge, so It should theoretically be capable of pushing a 140 grain to about the same speed as a similarly sized .30 cal could shoot a 190 grain bullet. So it isn't surprising that it won't push it that fast. In my opinion a 6.5x55 really shines with 120-130 grain bullets if you are shooting out past 250 yards. a 120 grain TTSX at 2800fps will hammer animals up to about 350 yards. As long as you're not paying $15,000 to hunt a Roosevelts Elk that is. In that case I wouldn't advise it.
 

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