Shooting vs Hunting / A Growing Ethical Issue

[Flbt]

It's obvious, you don't believe in community. Fair enough, you want to be the rebel who does his own thing and doesn't want to join any community that doesn't offer exactly what you want. I would call that kind of a selfish and childish approach. You are perfectly entitled not to want to compromise on any issue at any time.

But it makes you pretty useless as a community member doesn't it?

Just because one voice or a small number of voices dissent doesn't mean that ethics and community, as ideas and institutions cease to exist or have value. It just means there is some dissent and different ideas in a community and that can be healthy.

Hunting in North America is going to be regulated in one way or another. The best way is by the hunting community doing as much of it themselves as possible.

You are welcome to your "I am the center of the universe" moral relativistist approach but it don't work. And try not to fuck things up for the rest of the community while you are at it.

Small numbers?
I have seen hunters be against and sine anti- hunting petitions.
To stop trapping
To stop dog hunting
To stop bear hunting
To stop fox pens
To stop fox hunting
To quail hunting
Ext
Why they don’t do it and don’t think it’s ethical.
Seriously you don’t see a problem some one telling others how they should hunt because it’s the way you hunt or want to hunt?

This a a real ? Not just arguing

Seriously do you think how you ethnicity hunt should be mandatory for everyone?

 

[375Fox]

Now here another ?
I have seen people talk about less tags to go around if success rates are high .

Ok so is this discussion long range wounding?
Or because other hunters fill tags?

One is probably ethnic.
One is probably selfish and jealousy.

Have you ever left Florida to have any idea what you are talking about? You are not missing any opportunity to prove yourself a fool in an intelligent discussion.

It’s spelled ETHICS by the way.

 

[HankBuck]

I strongly but respectfully disagree. There are western states that do not even require orange clothing and others require only a hat. We are not seeing deaths in those states either. What they all have in common is hunter education. Are you against mandatory hunter education??

@Scott CWO - NO, I am Not against Hunter Education but I credit that Hunter Orange has been the largest reason for the reduction in Hunters accidentally being mistaken for game animals. You mention some States require “only a Hat” - that’s All that’s needed, an Orange hat can be seen 1/2 a mile away, the Hat is also often the “first part of a person cresting a hill top - coming into view first”. Hunter Education is fine and especially for those coming from a family that does Not hunt or has no friends that hunt - it can be very helpful….but it doesn’t keep you from being mistaken for a Deer as well as wearing ORANGE. I’ve hunted NM, WY, MT, KS, OK, IL —- I believe All required Orange and some States require a ridiculous amount (hat, vest, underwear, condom etc..). I hate the look of all that orange - hurts my eyes - but can’t deny it helps make a Hunter visible without hurting his chances at getting a deer, bear, moose, elk etc.. Although I know from talking with Game Wardens they love Orange because they can See Hunters easier and check them for violations, no license, wrong zone etc.. In NJ they love writting tickets and getting fines from “faded orange” etc.. I would leave it at this: Wearing Orange certainly Helps Not getting Shot.

 

[Flbt]

It's obvious, you don't believe in community. Fair enough, you want to be the rebel who does his own thing and doesn't want to join any community that doesn't offer exactly what you want. I would call that kind of a selfish and childish approach. You are perfectly entitled not to want to compromise on any issue at any time.

But it makes you pretty useless as a community member doesn't it?

Just because one voice or a small number of voices dissent doesn't mean that ethics and community, as ideas and institutions cease to exist or have value. It just means there is some dissent and different ideas in a community and that can be healthy.

Hunting in North America is going to be regulated in one way or another. The best way is by the hunting community doing as much of it themselves as possible.

You are welcome to your "I am the center of the universe" moral relativistist approach but it don't work. And try not to fuck things up for the rest of the community while you are at it.

If we are talking limited equipment like scopes.
Would a 4-14x44 with a Christmas tree reticle
Be consider long rang?
Honestly asking.
I have one I wanted the 14 power the recital is because they were out of the duplex.
The rifle in ? Is a 6.5 Grendel ( for me a 250yd max)
Why I need something low recoil. I want the power on the scope to make sure I don’t hit a twig. Thats it I don’t want it for long range
The rile is set dead on at 100 yd with a 120gr federal fusion. Nothing I would consider long range
Limit me to a 2x7x32 guess what I can’t see a twig at 100yds.

Your ethical fix just caused a bad shot when it had been perfect fine before?

You don’t see the problem here? Really?

 

[Flbt]

Have you ever left Florida to have any idea what you are talking about? You are not missing any opportunity to prove yourself a fool in an intelligent discussion.

It’s spelled ETHICS by the way.

Again dyslexic so sorry for the spelling

Yes I have left fl. And hunted in other states.
And what does leaving fl have to do with anything?
We have draw hunts and wma hear.

You know what else we have archery hunts
Muzzle loading hunts
Now air rifle hunts
A long with modern gun hunts

It gives more season and more chance at tags for different types of hunters with different equipment
I would guess most states have this.
If there enough support you might could get a
Iron sight only season
That way you can have limited range/ equipment hunts
With out effecting someone else’s equipment

 

[Flbt]

Have you ever left Florida to have any idea what you are talking about? You are not missing any opportunity to prove yourself a fool in an intelligent discussion.

It’s spelled ETHICS by the way.

You still didn’t answer
Is it wounded game or less tags?

Honestly I bet 98% would be wounded game is what most people are concerned with.

But I also bet there is some that not drawing a tag is the issue.

 

[R eight]

I like that.
But what about places /game that don’t have tags?

Like on South African game farms?

 

[Flbt]

It honestly might be my limited ability to convey my points across in a normal maner
Dyslexia and the lack of education ability to work around it at that time.
I really am not just trying to be a ass on this.
Ethics -Are moral principles
Moral principles- are Guide line people live by to Do the right thing.

My thing is hunters like all groups don’t agree on what a right thing is.
When we are discussing different ways to kill
And the right way to get to that point.

How do we as a group know what’s ethical?
Or do we have personal ethics? That come from where we are from and traditions?

And yes I do believe personal ethics are very important to me/ you.
But not that yours will matter to me or that mine will matter to you.

But since they Chang from place to place and by different traditions.

How can you decide? How can you legislate and pass laws based on something that changes and it’s not just a few. Thing’s like dog hunting and bear hunting is location based.

The best thing I have seen said that would make more people carful of a shot would be draw blood mark the tag.
But then it’s still going to be up to the guy behind the trigger and you do have the issue with multiple tags or no tags.

I just know more government rules especially what could be used as anti- hunting anti- gun rules should not be used

 

[Flbt]

Like on South African game farms?

That’s a good point.
But what I have seen sine I have been on this site some don’t seam to think if there a fence that is has ethnic anyway

 

[Doug3006]

I taught hunter ed in Missouri for a number of years. Yes, I know that better education has played a role in reducing shootings. But over the same period, several factors have led to people giving up on deer drives and taking up stand hunting. Over that period the number of “mistaken for game” shootings has plummeted. The number of people killed by falling out of trees has increased. Overall, though, hunting is safer now than 50 years ago.

 

[Betterinthebush]

When I was in 6th grade, all students were required to attend hunters education. Depending on your birthday, half the class had HE from August to Christmas break. The other half had it from January till end of school year. While one half was in HE the other half was forced against their will to take home economics (I guess they needed another course that initials were H-E). Girls had to suffer through Hunter’s Ed. Boys had to suffer equally through Home Ec.

A different time.

 

[375Fox]

Again dyslexic so sorry for the spelling

Yes I have left fl. And hunted in other states.
And what does leaving fl have to do with anything?
We have draw hunts and wma hear.

You know what else we have archery hunts
Muzzle loading hunts
Now air rifle hunts
A long with modern gun hunts

It gives more season and more chance at tags for different types of hunters with different equipment
I would guess most states have this.
If there enough support you might could get a
Iron sight only season
That way you can have limited range/ equipment hunts
With out effecting someone else’s equipment

Your comparisons to hunting deer and hogs in the SE US have no comparison to long range hunting in the western US. It’s displaying a very limited understanding of something beyond what you can see in your backyard. Hunting deer on small private plots of land in Florida doesn’t compare to elk or sheep on large tracts of public land in the west. It’s worth a discussion. The anyone can do anything they want attitude decimated wildlife populations in the US prior to laws being implemented. Regulations are put in place for a variety of reasons.

 

[375Fox]

You still didn’t answer
Is it wounded game or less tags?

Honestly I bet 98% would be wounded game is what most people are concerned with.

But I also bet there is some that not drawing a tag is the issue.

No you choose not to read. From an ethical issue (that you say is meaningless) it’s wounded game from inexperienced shooters taking shots they shouldn’t due to modern equipment like ballistic turrets and range apps.
From a practical standpoint. Game managers may decide to shorten seasons and reduce tags due to higher off take (both wounded and claimed) affecting population numbers or age demographics.

 

[R eight]

That’s a good point.
But what I have seen sine I have been on this site some don’t seam to think if there a fence that is has ethnic anyway

Well hunting or shooting something within a game fenced area is same, same but different.

What is the definition of “game fenced “ ? Seems pretty straightforward…..

Below is a photo which was taken many years ago. I used to hunt/cull goats there. The area of the property was around 3000 acres and it was very steep. No roads, foot hunting only and it would have taken a good day and a half to walk the boundary. There wasn’t a strand of wire on the place. But it was fenced by a bloody great ocean.

When culling I could shoot in excess of a hundred a day. When I was hunting there I sometimes didn’t fire a shot.

So the questions are; was I hunting or shooting ? And was I being ethical?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

According to the Canadian bureau of statistics falls from tree stands are the #1 cause of hunter fatalities just at in the US.

Obviously, that statistic is for "hunting  accidental deaths." Death from hypothermia while hunting is not a hunting accident. It's a screwup that is often unrelated to hunting (i.e. lost during the walk out). Nor, I would think, is a motor vehicle accident while hunting classified as a hunting accident.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I like to shoot at extended ranges (for me this means 300 to 600 yards). BUT a game animal is not a target and hunting is not a competitive shooting sport. That is a living game animal and it deserves a quick and clean death. If this is not a relative certainty then you need to pass or up your bushcraft skills and get into position that is, at least, 90% certain.

I often come home without game. That's fine, I still have the experience of the hunt - game or not... because it is HUNTING not shooting.

What is missing from today's ethic and practice is sportsmanship, which I seldom see discussed on the latest Youtube video.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Small numbers?
I have seen hunters be against and sine anti- hunting petitions.
To stop trapping
To stop dog hunting
To stop bear hunting
To stop fox pens
To stop fox hunting
To quail hunting
Ext
Why they don’t do it and don’t think it’s ethical.
Seriously you don’t see a problem some one telling others how they should hunt because it’s the way you hunt or want to hunt?

This a a real ? Not just arguing

Seriously do you think how you ethnicity hunt should be mandatory for everyone?

This is actually a fair point. Us hunters tend to be our own worse enemy. Some will say hunting over bait is unethical and others will say hunting with hounds is unethical.

I think we all want to make an effective 1 shot kill, obviously being closer limits the variables that could go wrong. How that distance varies greatly on the person and conditions. It is a hard thing to regulate effectively.

 

[Longfeather1]

Interesting discussion this. Long range shooting vs ethics vs legal/illegal vs regulations, add nausea.

My $0.02......

All hunting everywhere has regulations, some of which are more relaxed than others, designed to be in the best interest (hopefully) foremost for the game we chase and for those, experienced or neophyte, doing the chasing.

Regarding these "regulations", or lack thereof, an individual hunter's, or guide's, for that matter, "ethics" are only truly determined by what that individual does/doesn't do within the bounds of the regulations when there's no one around to watch them do or not do it.

Is there a time, place, reason for long range shooting at game? Both yes and no. Should the "reason" for such shooting be undertaken because of regulations or ethics or the shooters demeanor in the moment? Tougher question to answer.

As for myself, when I was taught to hunt by my father, I was taught to get as close as possible to the game before I loose an arrow or pull the trigger in order to ensure the quickest kill possible. Still hunt the same way 55 years later. Don't think I'll change it anytime soon. Don't get me wrong, if game is wounded, I'll take whatever shot at whatever distance I'm presented to put the game down for keeps. I owe myself that much as do I owe the game.

Can I shoot exceedingly long range? Possibly. It's something I don't know as I have nowhere to practice it where I live without having to drive a long distance. The longest place I have to shoot is 300 yards. I do practice a bit out to that range just to prove to myself I can do it should the "need" arise. I comfortable with that. It's my choice.

But when it comes time to pull the trigger or loose an arrow, I'll try to get closer.

 

[Flbt]

Your comparisons to hunting deer and hogs in the SE US have no comparison to long range hunting in the western US. It’s displaying a very limited understanding of something beyond what you can see in your backyard. Hunting deer on small private plots of land in Florida doesn’t compare to elk or sheep on large tracts of public land in the west. It’s worth a discussion. The anyone can do anything they want attitude decimated wildlife populations in the US prior to laws being implemented. Regulations are put in place for a variety of reasons.

Ok
But we have millions of acers of public land
Long shots at west not here in the east?
Ever sat on a 900 acer clear cut?
A 500 acer water melon feild?
Don’t think you can get much longer shooting than that with a hand carrying rifle?
Can you?
Even if you are in the middle of the field or clear cut
Straight line 250 acers is a long way off.
Limited tags are limited tags dosent matter if it’s for a game animal or a hunting zone the tags are limited
And we have 1 wma with limited tags on the animal and the hunt area it’s self Sambar deer.
When I could walk I put in the draw every year. Never got it.
Not once did I think there equipment needed to be limited or out of state people restricted
To where I had a better chance at the tag.
Happy for them that got it and hope I would get it the next time.

 

[Flbt]

No you choose not to read. From an ethical issue (that you say is meaningless) it’s wounded game from inexperienced shooters taking shots they shouldn’t due to modern equipment like ballistic turrets and range apps.
From a practical standpoint. Game managers may decide to shorten seasons and reduce tags due to higher off take (both wounded and claimed) affecting population numbers or age demographics.

I guess I still not getting the point across
Wounded animals bad very bad

Ethics have no set definition they change widely form place to place and traditions
Basing laws on ethics with out definition is the exact same as anti gunners want to have laws on felling.