Shooting vs Hunting / A Growing Ethical Issue

[trperk1]

I shot competitively as a kid, and then again in the Marines. Then as a civilian, in all manners with bow, muzzleloader, pistol and rifle. All and all consider myself an above average shooter on paper and on game.

This trend of long range shooters on animals to me is unethical. First because your environment is different in the field compared to the range, as is your heart rate. All impacts your accuracy without doubt. The other is game recovery. I've had a hard time finding first blood on game shot at 200 yards sometimes, let alone 1,000 or 2,000 yards. It just creates to many variables that could lead to the loss of a wounded animal. Lastly, closing that last 1,000 yards is the most exhilarating part of the hunt. Beating the animals senses in their domain is where it's at. That's why I prefer bow hunting elk as an example. My first elk hunt was a 400 yard shot, ran a circle and rolled over. Sort of uneventful. The next and every one since was bow hunting the rut. No comparison. Same would go for Africa, stalking game in thick cover is a blast.

I'll stick with hunting and let others do the killing, cause that is what it is. As for government, hope they stay out of it.

 

[Doug3006]

For now
Look at the libs that are in tx and fl now?
I know people that have left Colorado because of the lib bs.
With the way libtards leave the states the screwed up they will be in your state one day soon and will use the laws against your soap box because they don’t have the same ethics you do

I also worried that the CA libs would ruin TX and FL by moving there with the same attitudes and ignorance that destroyed the place they fled. I believe this has happened in some Rocky Mountain states.

But so far FL is bucking that trend. Apparently the Californians and Easterners moving to FL are built of sterner stuff. The FL Republican Party continues to grow and Democrats are losing elections in some areas of FL they used to own.

I surmise that how transplants behave in their new home has a lot to do with why they left. If they are just looking for a lower cost of living, they’ll probably cling to their old political habits (even though their politics CAUSED the cost of living problem). If they’re looking for more freedom, then they assimilate rather well.

 

[Flbt]

I strongly but respectfully disagree. There are western states that do not even require orange clothing and others require only a hat. We are not seeing deaths in those states either. What they all have in common is hunter education. Are you against mandatory hunter education??

It very well could be better optics being use lets people see other people?

I don’t know on hunter safety
Less hunting deaths could very well be because there less hunters?

Here I think a lot has to do with less dog hunting.
Posted hunters on a block of woods with shooting at moving deer.
And with hunting deaths how many were self inflicted?
I know when I was a kid a lot of the shooting were because someone pulled a rifle or shotgun that had a hammer on it towards themselves.
It was a big enough thing that when fl started hunter Ed it was covered.
So did hunter Ed help or did changes in equipment? I dont see may hammer guns used now.

 

[Flbt]

I’ve read most, probably all, of this tread and it seems to me that many of us are using different dictionaries to define “ethics”.

Perhaps the easiest and most efficient way to ensure the use of a universal definition would be to link it to a monetary value. In short you draw blood, your tag is punched.

Easy to ensure on guided hunts. But, probably only enforceable by one’s own conscience and peer pressure on self guided adventures.

I like that.
But what about places /game that don’t have tags?

 

[Flbt]

My first elk hunt I experienced this, and a prime example of something that would be ethical, but illegal. I was on my first hunting trip "out west", having never hunted outside of my home state of Pennsylvania. This was 2003 I think, and I was hunting elk out of a backcountry elk camp on horseback in Montana. I had a bull tag. Third or fourth day of the hunt, my guide and I watched a string of cows come out of some timber below us. Further down the ridge a rifle cracked, and we saw the lead cow was hit, but hit too low, dragging a front leg. The string of elk came our direction, passing within 300 yards, with the cow now bringing up the rear well behind the rest of the group. I wanted badly to put her down, but was told by my guide that was illegal as I did not possess a cow tag. The hunters who shot at her were unsuccessful in locating her and finishing her off. The ethical thing to do would have been to kill her and put her out of her misery, but illegal.

Exactly why ethnic don’t really mean much.
And legal and ethical can easily not be the same thing.

 

[Flbt]

I also worried that the CA libs would ruin TX and FL by moving there with the same attitudes and ignorance that destroyed the place they fled. I believe this has happened in some Rocky Mountain states.

But so far FL is bucking that trend. Apparently the Californians and Easterners moving to FL are built of sterner stuff. The FL Republican Party continues to grow and Democrats are losing elections in some areas of FL they used to own.

I surmise that how transplants behave in their new home has a lot to do with why they left. If they are just looking for a lower cost of living, they’ll probably cling to their old political habits (even though their politics CAUSED the cost of living problem). If they’re looking for more freedom, then they assimilate rather well.

I guess I see them messing up fl. Because where I am at is getting more liberal.
My my daughter high school public still had prayer 8 years ago. Not any more.

 

[Rafiki]

I would say hunter orange really makes a difference in group upland hunting like quail and pheasant. Especially in tall cover or standing corn. I could see it mattering a great deal jn places that did deer drives as well.

Well, there's always the odd case; 2 years ago l was shot in an open field wearing hunter orange while taking a piss. Poop happens

 

[RLD]

Ethics are critical to any self-regulating community.

Without them you are just outsourcing the regulation of a community

It very well could be better optics being use lets people see other people?

I don’t know on hunter safety
Less hunting deaths could very well be because there less hunters?

Here I think a lot has to do with less dog hunting.
Posted hunters on a block of woods with shooting at moving deer.
And with hunting deaths how many were self inflicted?
I know when I was a kid a lot of the shooting were because someone pulled a rifle or shotgun that had a hammer on it towards themselves.
It was a big enough thing that when fl started hunter Ed it was covered.
So did hunter Ed help or did changes in equipment? I dont see may hammer guns used now.

While it can be fun to be a rebel contrarian just for the sake of it, the data just tells us otherwise.

In Ontario, which has a good amount of hunters, a growing number last I checked, when we introduced hunter education the number of hunting injuries dropped very quickly and continued to go down as grandfathered hunters aged out and the population of hunters became proportionately more graduates of the hunter education program. I believe the New York State data is just as robust and comes to the same conclusions.

An interesting historical note is that in North America hunter safety courses were an idea first proposed and moved forward by the NRA.

And with respect to ethics, they are essential to any self regulating community. Critically important. Not having some sort of shared ethics puts the hunting community (and other communities) at risk from a number of angles, not the least of which is regulation by people who don't understand the subject matter.

If you don't, to some degree, police your own, someone else will have to do it for you. And you know the old saying about that: "I'm from the government and I am here to help."

 

[jbirdwell]

I know that my opinion will be extremely unpopular in this thread, but I’ll just put some matters into perspective.

Some hunters want to ban bow hunting
Some hunters want to ban buckshot
Some hunters want to ban hunting over torchlight
Some hunters want to ban hunting over hounds
Some hunters want to ban hunting over bait
Some hunters want to ban hunting over waterholes
Some hunters want to ban driven hunts
Some hunters want to ban semi automatic rifles
Some hunters want to ban muzzle loaders
Some hunters want to ban repeating rifles (e.g: John Pondoro Taylor)
Some hunters want to ban elephant hunting
Some hunters want to ban lion hunting (both wild AND CBL)
Some hunters want to ban bear hunting
Some hunters want to ban predator hunting
Some hunters want to ban “Trophy Hunting” (without fully understanding what “Trophy Hunting” really is)
Some hunters want to ban certain calibers for hunting
Some hunters want to ban telescopic sights
Some hunters want to ban high capacity magazines

And of course… some hunters want to limit the ranges game can be taken at.

With absolutely no disrespect aimed towards my fellow American/Canadian/British/European/Australian hunters… you all are blessed in the Western world to have so many freedoms regarding firearms & hunting. Blessed in ways that many of you can’t fully begin to appreciate yet. Blessed in ways that many take for granted.

I’ll offer a perspective from the East. We (India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam, Japan) used to have relatively lax restrictions upon firearms & hunting. It wasn’t anti hunters & anti gun owners that did us in. It was our own kind. In-fighting between hunters who felt the need to look down upon any form of hunting which is different to the manner by which THEY hunt. And look where it got us. All these countries now have severe restrictions in terms of hunting laws & firearms ownership (hunting being outright banned in India). Unrepentant hunter as I am, the harsh reality about us is that we’re a deeply judgmental self righteous sort. I’m an IGF (Inspector General Of Forests) and a former CCF (Chief Conservator Of Forests). There was not a hunting related bill in my part of the world which gets approved without my signature. And I say this with absolutely zero arrogance but I know what I’m talking about.

We talk about “Fair Chase”. Well, what exactly constitutes “Fair” ? What might be fair to hunter A, might not be fair to hunter B. Even the article shared by the original poster highlights this issue. Some hunters think that 600 yards is too long a shot. Some draw the line at 400. I personally seldom take a shot over 100 yards and mostly hunt with iron sights. So am I entitled to demand a ban for telescopic sighted rifles ? I personally think that doing so would make me incredibly self centered.

Sure, while pushing for another restrictive measure on hunting… we’ll temporarily find an ally in the anti hunting crowd. But make no mistake. Once they’ve “Helped” you ban long range hunting, they’ll simply turn against you and push for more restrictions upon hunting until hunting itself becomes completely banned. These people are not our friends.

My motto is “Hunt & Let Hunt”. There are many personal dislikes which one is obviously entitled to have. A few weeks ago, somebody here posted a thread about wanting to hunt an elephant with a bow & arrow. I don’t think very highly of this stunt at all, but I’m not going to push for a ban against dangerous game hunting with a bow. That other hunter has just as much rights as I do.

And I’m also vehemently opposed to involving the government. They often impose a blanket prohibition without fully addressing all factors. For instance, in 1918… American Federal law banned any 8 gauge shotgun (or larger) for the purposes of waterfowl hunting. The reasoning was that an 8 gauge shotgun makes it incredibly easy to secure large bags of waterfowl. Well, let’s see. An 8 gauge cartridge holds 56 grams of shot. Today, a modern 12 gauge 3.5” Magnum shell holds 63 grams of shot. And that’s perfectly legal for waterfowl. Yet the 8 gauge remains banned today, even though the logic behind it’s ban is no longer sound. The point is, when a government imposes a restriction… it becomes damned hard to overturn the restriction.

Would I take an antelope at 2000 yards ? Hell, no. I deem anything above 300 yards to be unsporting in my personal code of ethics. Far too many hunters these days think that they’re the Simo Hayha, Carlos Hathcock or Chris Kyle of Shikar. And they tend to view game animals as enemy soldiers. But I still ask all of you to properly reconsider pushing for any sort of legislation restricting a form of hunting without fully understanding the Domino effects & unintended consequences.

I don’t think it could have been said any better. Loved your post.

 

[Flbt]

Ethics are critical to any self-regulating community.

Without them you are just outsourcing the regulation of a community

While it can be fun to be a rebel contrarian just for the sake of it, the data just tells us otherwise.

In Ontario, which has a good amount of hunters, a growing number last I checked, when we introduced hunter education the number of hunting injuries dropped very quickly and continued to go down as grandfathered hunters aged out and the population of hunters became proportionately more graduates of the hunter education program. I believe the New York State data is just as robust and comes to the same conclusions.

An interesting historical note is that in North America hunter safety courses were an idea first proposed and moved forward by the NRA.

And with respect to ethics, they are essential to any self regulating community. Critically important. Not having some sort of shared ethics puts the hunting community (and other communities) at risk from a number of angles, not the least of which is regulation by people who don't understand the subject matter.

If you don't, to some degree, police your own, someone else will have to do it for you. And you know the old saying about that: "I'm from the government and I am here to help."

Well why is there more hunter shooting on public land here than private?
Hunter orange required for deer and turkey on public land.
It’s not required on private.

 

[Flbt]

Ethics are critical to any self-regulating community.

Without them you are just outsourcing the regulation of a community

While it can be fun to be a rebel contrarian just for the sake of it, the data just tells us otherwise.

In Ontario, which has a good amount of hunters, a growing number last I checked, when we introduced hunter education the number of hunting injuries dropped very quickly and continued to go down as grandfathered hunters aged out and the population of hunters became proportionately more graduates of the hunter education program. I believe the New York State data is just as robust and comes to the same conclusions.

An interesting historical note is that in North America hunter safety courses were an idea first proposed and moved forward by the NRA.

And with respect to ethics, they are essential to any self regulating community. Critically important. Not having some sort of shared ethics puts the hunting community (and other communities) at risk from a number of angles, not the least of which is regulation by people who don't understand the subject matter.

If you don't, to some degree, police your own, someone else will have to do it for you. And you know the old saying about that: "I'm from the government and I am here to help."

That’s the thing we don’t share ethnics.
I am fine with knife hunting hogs
A lot are not
I am fine with dog hunting
A lot find that unethical
I am fine with stand hunting
I know dog hunters that think stand hunting is no better than killing because the animals don’t know something after it
I think bows are unethical
Others don’t
There are many many methods and traditions in hunting.
And people from different places and different traditions don’t think all methods are ethical and a lot want to force THERE ethnics on you
And on me. Even wanting to get the law / government involved.

There just like the anti gun crowd
This bad thing happened with a ar out law all ars
Bullshit

 

[RLD]

That’s the thing we don’t share ethnics.
I am fine with knife hunting hogs
A lot are not
I am fine with dog hunting
A lot find that unethical
I am fine with stand hunting
I know dog hunters that think stand hunting is no better than killing because the animals don’t know something after it
I think bows are unethical
Others don’t
There are many many methods and traditions in hunting.
And people from different places and different traditions don’t think all methods are ethical and a lot want to force THERE ethnics on you
And on me. Even wanting to get the law / government involved.

There just like the anti gun crowd
This bad thing happened with a ar out law all ars
Bullshit

It's obvious, you don't believe in community. Fair enough, you want to be the rebel who does his own thing and doesn't want to join any community that doesn't offer exactly what you want. I would call that kind of a selfish and childish approach. You are perfectly entitled not to want to compromise on any issue at any time.

But it makes you pretty useless as a community member doesn't it?

Just because one voice or a small number of voices dissent doesn't mean that ethics and community, as ideas and institutions cease to exist or have value. It just means there is some dissent and different ideas in a community and that can be healthy.

Hunting in North America is going to be regulated in one way or another. The best way is by the hunting community doing as much of it themselves as possible.

You are welcome to your "I am the center of the universe" moral relativistist approach but it don't work. And try not to fuck things up for the rest of the community while you are at it.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It's obvious, you don't believe in community. Fair enough, you want to be the rebel who does his own thing and doesn't want to join any community that doesn't offer exactly what you want. I would call that kind of a selfish and childish approach. You are perfectly entitled not to want to compromise on any issue at any time.

But it makes you pretty useless as a community member doesn't it?

Just because one voice or a small number of voices dissent doesn't mean that ethics and community, as ideas and institutions cease to exist or have value. It just means there is some dissent and different ideas in a community and that can be healthy.

Hunting in North America is going to be regulated in one way or another. The best way is by the hunting community doing as much of it themselves as possible.

You are welcome to your "I am the center of the universe" moral relativistist approach but it don't work. And try not to fuck things up for the rest of the community while you are at it.

Forget it. Too many syllables.

 

[MS 9x56]

Policemen doing traffic stops on a busy highway are not there for hunting purposes.

The only statistically valid argument here for the transition to mandatory hunter orange was it MIGHT make it easier to find their corpses when hunters expire in the outdoors. Of course it won't keep them from dying of hypothermia (#1 cause of hunting related deaths here) or falling off a cliff or being crushed by a falling tree or struck by lightning or cardiac arrest. But maybe someone else won't die looking for the body.

In your dozen or more safaris to Africa how many times did you wear hunter orange, lime green, etc? Anyone ever wear it in Scotland or Spain? Not in any of the videos I'm watching. Must be a reason for that.

By the way, in Africa I do keep a cheap orange vest in my daypack + roll of pink flourescent flagging tape. Can be handy for keeping critters and birds off the carcass if we have to go for help to retrieve it.

According to the Canadian bureau of statistics falls from tree stands are the #1 cause of hunter fatalities just at in the US.

 

[Flbt]

It's obvious, you don't believe in community. Fair enough, you want to be the rebel who does his own thing and doesn't want to join any community that doesn't offer exactly what you want. I would call that kind of a selfish and childish approach. You are perfectly entitled not to want to compromise on any issue at any time.

But it makes you pretty useless as a community member doesn't it?

Just because one voice or a small number of voices dissent doesn't mean that ethics and community, as ideas and institutions cease to exist or have value. It just means there is some dissent and different ideas in a community and that can be healthy.

Hunting in North America is going to be regulated in one way or another. The best way is by the hunting community doing as much of it themselves as possible.

You are welcome to your "I am the center of the universe" moral relativistist approach but it don't work. And try not to fuck things up for the rest of the community while you are at it.

I really think you are wrong.
Especially on the long range stuff.
I don’t like it.
I talk against it when hunters I know bring it up
And against it on a number of yt video that brought it up.
I think the ethics definition is a problem and will work against us all in the long run.

And yes I am happy being and all ways have been a asshole. Thanks very much it came from to many years in a Christian/ hypocrite academy

 

[MS 9x56]

It's obvious, you don't believe in community. Fair enough, you want to be the rebel who does his own thing and doesn't want to join any community that doesn't offer exactly what you want. I would call that kind of a selfish and childish approach. You are perfectly entitled not to want to compromise on any issue at any time.

But it makes you pretty useless as a community member doesn't it?

Just because one voice or a small number of voices dissent doesn't mean that ethics and community, as ideas and institutions cease to exist or have value. It just means there is some dissent and different ideas in a community and that can be healthy.

Hunting in North America is going to be regulated in one way or another. The best way is by the hunting community doing as much of it themselves as possible.

You are welcome to your "I am the center of the universe" moral relativistist approach but it don't work. And try not to fuck things up for the rest of the community while you are at it.

I already blocked this joker as all he wants to do is stir the pot. Not offering any useful input. Life is too short to suffer fools.

 

[HankBuck]

Following this line of logic, can we now conclude that the high visibility, orange, yellow, and lime green garb worn by millions of people, throughout the world, is not for safety ?
Perhaps they have all been duped by "Big Orange"?

@Denvir Tire - when someone claims that “Deer & Moose see it” there’s No Point debating or even discussing….they Know-it-All.

Not sure about moose but deer do not see blaze orange. I have had deer within 6 feet of me wearing orange and as long as you don’t move the walk right on by.

@MS 9x56 - save your breath, some members Know-it-All

 

[Flbt]

It's obvious, you don't believe in community. Fair enough, you want to be the rebel who does his own thing and doesn't want to join any community that doesn't offer exactly what you want. I would call that kind of a selfish and childish approach. You are perfectly entitled not to want to compromise on any issue at any time.

But it makes you pretty useless as a community member doesn't it?

Just because one voice or a small number of voices dissent doesn't mean that ethics and community, as ideas and institutions cease to exist or have value. It just means there is some dissent and different ideas in a community and that can be healthy.

Hunting in North America is going to be regulated in one way or another. The best way is by the hunting community doing as much of it themselves as possible.

You are welcome to your "I am the center of the universe" moral relativistist approach but it don't work. And try not to fuck things up for the rest of the community while you are at it.

Now here another ?
I have seen people talk about less tags to go around if success rates are high .

Ok so is this discussion long range wounding?
Or because other hunters fill tags?

One is probably ethnic.
One is probably selfish and jealousy.

 

[MS 9x56]

Well, there's always the odd case; 2 years ago l was shot in an open field wearing hunter orange while taking a piss. Poop happens

That was pretty rude of someone. I hope it wasn’t in your posterior!

 

[MS 9x56]

@Denvir Tire - when someone claims that “Deer & Moose see it” there’s No Point debating or even discussing….they Know-it-All.

@MS 9x56 - save your breath, some members Know-it-All

Good point!