Serial Number Issue SAPS520

[Franco]

I am in the process of filing paperwork for my transit through SA next month. The folks at riflepermits.com are processing the form and required copies of my 4457's and actual photos of the rifle serial number to verify the info.

On the 4457's I list: Make, Model, Caliber, Serial Number

Both rifles I am taking are Heyms, they have DL/ stamped prior to the serial number. DL stands for "Germany", the slash is to separate that mark from the serial number. I have never included the DL/ on my 4457's, however, I am being told by the permit folks the SA police consider it part of the number and are requiring it to be on the 4457.

Has anyone had an issue with the SA police?

 

[Rare Breed]

I have never had to supply Rifle Permits with pictures of serial numbers and I have used them every single time of my 8 safaris. I would call them back and ask why this is. I am traffeling on June 20th and only filled out the 520 form and it got approved fast.

 

[jlb1036]

I have never had any issues with sa police RIFLES PERMITT THYE HANDLE ALL THE PPW AND ARE GREAT should not be a problem .

 

[Franco]

This what I received from Adel at Rifle Permits:

Dear Sir,



We have received your application for the pre-approved rifle permit.



Can you please confirm the serial number on your rifles. You can just email us a photo of the serial numbers on the rifles.



Just want to make 100% sure.



Kind regards,



I sent photos of both rifles showing serial numbers. Almost immediately I received confirmation of receipt and serial numbers.

Then, this morning, Henry sent this:

Dear All



We have noticed now that the serial numbers on the SAPS520 form, 4457 form and rifles do not correspond, the DE letters mut be listed on the 4457 form as well, please jut get this rectified.



Also for the 450/400 on the picture I don’t see the letters DE in front of serial number?



Eeverything must correspond as on the rifles, if not we are going to have problems on arrival at the airport.





Thank you.



Kind regards

I informed Henry DE stands for Germany and is not part of the serial number, and DE is not shown in the photo of the 450 because it is not stamped on the 450 - which means it does in fact match the 4457.

His response was the SA police regard DE as part of the serial number and I could have issues when trying to clear the rifles.

 

[Andrew62]

Is there room on your 4457 to add ‘DL’ before the serial number? I’ve never had to send Rifle Permits a photo before, and I literally just sent them paperwork this morning for my trip in September.

My buddy just took my Verney Carron over/under to South Africa last month. On his 4457 and paperwork to Rifle Permits, he listed my double as Sabatti, no one ever said a word that it was a VC.

 

[Franco]

I have never had any issues with sa police RIFLES PERMITT THYE HANDLE ALL THE PPW AND ARE GREAT should not be a problem .

Rifle permits are the ones saying DE must be on the 4457. I've tried to explain it's the equivalent of writing down, "Made In USA"

I don't really mind getting the 4457's redone, but 1. it's a 2 hour drive to Customs, 2. it's just another example of bureaucracy creating an issue where none should exist

 

[Franco]

Is there room on your 4457 to add ‘DL’ before the serial number? I’ve never had to send Rifle Permits a photo before, and I literally just sent them paperwork this morning for my trip in September.

My buddy just took my Verney Carron over/under to South Africa last month. On his 4457 and paperwork to Rifle Permits, he listed my double as Sabatti, no one ever said a word that it was a VC.

Unfortunately - no. So - it's back to Shreveport. Good news is; there's a great beignet shop, cigar lounge, and crawfish spot - all close by

 

[Doug3006]

I think they’re just trying to avoid the blame for submitting the wrong serial number. If they have a photo, then they can be assured the SN they submit is correct. Seems like a good practice. It would be reassuring to me that they check my homework and correct any mistakes I make before I’m standing at the gun-check station in JNB with paperwork that doesn’t match the gun!

As far as including DL as part of the serial number, I think you should. If it’s stamped on the rifle, then why not include it?

 

[Franco]

I don't disagree - but why stop there? There's all kinds of things stamped on the rifle.

I've loaded the truck with cigars and I'm headed to Customs at Shreveport

 

[Doug3006]

All of the rest of the stuff stamped on a rifle wouldn’t possibly be considered part of the SN.

 

[JimP]

On my stainless Weatherby there is a SS before the SN.

All it means is that it is Stainless Steel but I include it on my 4457's and SAP's forms.

Remember, you have to do it the South African way, it's their sandbox.

 

[Hogpatrol]

How about when you return and the 4457s don't match with the stamped number. Will that be an issue? This year when I wanted to change something on my already issued 4457, it had two rifles and three scopes on one form, I called and they said no, you have to get a new one. If it were me, I'd just go get new 4457s.

 

[Franco]

All of the rest of the stuff stamped on a rifle wouldn’t possibly be considered part of the SN.

You and I are in total agreement, unfortunately, we are not the ones making those decisions. who knows what someone might decide needs to be included on a form, and once it starts - it's difficult to stop.

I made my first trip to Africa in the late 70's; I spent 2 days in the Minister of Aviation's office while an officer attempted to convert my FAA license to a local one by comparing my license to pictures of foreign licenses in a 2 volume set of manuals thicker than New York phone books.

He didn't understand what "Date of Issuance" meant - thought it was the expiration date and made the decision my license was invalid. Same thing happen in Brazil a couple years later.

In both instances, supervisors had to be brought in.

The point I'm trying make is some of these "rules" are arbitrary and isolated, but we are at their mercy.

I did speak with the travel agent handling my trip and he was quite surprised. He had just transited thru SA and said the police had him read the serial numbers to them - they never looked at them.

He is thinking this might in fact be an internal issue within Rifle Permits as he has never heard of them asking for pictures of the serial numbers. He will be contacting them and possibly switching to Mr X.

In any event, I drove to Shreveport with a new 4457.

I'll post any further info.

 

[Franco]

On my stainless Weatherby there is a SS before the SN.

All it means is that it is Stainless Steel but I include it on my 4457's and SAP's forms.

Remember, you have to do it the South African way, it's their sandbox.

You are so right.

 

[Franco]

How about when you return and the 4457s don't match with the stamped number. Will that be an issue? This year when I wanted to change something on my already issued 4457, it had two rifles and three scopes on one form, I called and they said no, you have to get a new one. If it were me, I'd just go get new 4457s.

I don't understand your question. The serial numbers stamped on the rifle and recorded on the 4457 are identical; what's in question is the manufacturer's mark of DE which is basically "Germany" - no different then if it had been manufactured in the US and had USA stamped on it. It is not a part of the serial number and does not appear in that format on my 450/400.

 

[JimP]

One thing to remember, Henry at Rifle Permits has done quite possibly hundreds of thousands permits and he knows what the South African Police are looking for and what they expect.

I would imagine that he wanted the picture to know just how everything is stamped on the rifle. When you didn't include the DE a flag went up in his mind since he has quite possibly processed a few thousand of your make of Rifle.

When it comes to SAPS it's better to err on the side of caution

 

[Franco]

One thing to remember, Henry at Rifle Permits has done quite possibly hundreds of thousands permits and he knows what the South African Police are looking for and what they expect.

I would imagine that he wanted the picture to know just how everything is stamped on the rifle. When you didn't include the DE a flag went up in his mind since he has quite possibly processed a few thousand of your make of Rifle.

When it comes to SAPS it's better to err on the side of caution

I don't disagree with you, like you said - it's their sandbox.

 

[Red Leg]

I don't disagree with you, like you said - it's their sandbox.

Exactly. It is indeed their area of responsibility for your trip. It doesn't matter what you think is unreasonable. It does matter that you are paying them for their expertise to get you and your rifles through customs and the SA police smoothly and quickly. Get a new 4457 and insure it matches exactly what is being submitted.

 

[GuttormG]

Most likely explanation; Riflepermits has experienced this exact issue with Heym rifles vs SA police and is simply doing what you are paying them to do-makeing sure you have a seigt, trouble free arrival in DA

 

[Franco]

Exactly. It is indeed their area of responsibility for your trip. It doesn't matter what you think is unreasonable. It does matter that you are paying them for their expertise to get you and your rifles through customs and the SA police smoothly and quickly. Get a new 4457 and insure it matches exactly what is being submitted.

Done - drove to Shreveport, got a new 4457, some crawfish and beignets, and had a nice cigar on the drive home.

I think it was Henry's question about not seeing DE in front of the serial numbers on the 450/400 which got me going. If, as was stated above, "Henry has seen a few thousand rifles similar to mine" - shouldn't he know it simply stands for "Germany", the "/" is there to separate it from the serial number, and it's not on every rifle?

I do understand he's just the messenger, and you shouldn't shoot the messenger.

Well, I'll know in a month how it goes.