RJ Renner "Old Africa" Model 70 Upgrade

[Ontario Hunter]

I always put the QR levers on the left, away from the bolt handle.

Warne QD rings have levers that can be repositioned anywhere by simply pulling out on the spring loaded lever and moving wherever desired. Note that I have both levers pointed up and in towards the turret. Completely out of the way for bolt travel.

 

[PARA45]

I always put the QR levers on the left, away from the bolt handle.

I did the same with my CZ 375H&H.

 

[perdurabo]

Well, after talking it over with Roger, it seems he would prefer not to take on the work unless he can do the whole package, stock work included.

Anyone have any recommendations for a reliable gunsmith who can rebarrel a model 70 with claw extractor to 9.3x62 and also install Rigby style hooded front sight, barrel band front swivel, express leaf rear sights, ebony forend, etc? I'd prefer someone with a proven track record with traditional wood stock hunting rifles rather than a local general gunsmith who is mostly doing tactical/competition rifles.

 

[hoytcanon]

Well, after talking it over with Roger, it seems he would prefer not to take on the work unless he can do the whole package, stock work included.

Anyone have any recommendations for a reliable gunsmith who can rebarrel a model 70 with claw extractor to 9.3x62 and also install Rigby style hooded front sight, barrel band front swivel, express leaf rear sights, ebony forend, etc? I'd prefer someone with a proven track record with traditional wood stock hunting rifles rather than a local general gunsmith who is mostly doing tactical/competition rifles.

Any gunsmith can do the metal work, nothing difficult about your project. However, not all gunsmiths will do the wood work... a forend tip is no big deal, you can do that job yourself in the garage with basic tools.

 

[perdurabo]

Any gunsmith can do the metal work, nothing difficult about your project. However, not all gunsmiths will do the wood work... a forend tip is no big deal, you can do that job yourself in the garage with basic tools.

That may be true, but I'm not interested in doing it that way. I'm looking for quality rifle work that will hold its value by being associated with a well known smith, not some random dude in his garage.

The reason I chose Renner first was his reputation with traditional hunting rifles. I need a recommendation for someone else with similar credentials who can do similar work but without his particular limitations.

 

[hoytcanon]

I have two of Renner's rifles done on Ruger No.1's... nice work, but there are lots of qualified and competent smiths out there. Google "gunsmith"... if all you want is a "name" to be associated with, the one with the most traffic will show up first.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Well, after talking it over with Roger, it seems he would prefer not to take on the work unless he can do the whole package, stock work included.

Anyone have any recommendations for a reliable gunsmith who can rebarrel a model 70 with claw extractor to 9.3x62 and also install Rigby style hooded front sight, barrel band front swivel, express leaf rear sights, ebony forend, etc? I'd prefer someone with a proven track record with traditional wood stock hunting rifles rather than a local general gunsmith who is mostly doing tactical/competition rifles.

That is odd. A custom gun maker who doesn't want to do what the customer wants. ??? So his hangup is about doing the stock work his way or no way?

I had Dennis Olsen ream, thread, and install 404J barrel on my 98 Mauser action, but when I placed the order he absolutely refused to get involved with altering the feeding rails and loading ramp. I was pleasantly surprised when I picked up the job and discovered he had fitted the action to my stock (the gun came to his shop as 30-06). I did not expect that. Then he asked if I wanted him to do the rails, etc. Guess he changed his mind once he saw the project. But that would have meant further delay and I was a long way from home. Getting gun work done cross-border is complicated. So I took it home and finished the project.

You need to price this kind of work. Honestly, I think you would be very lucky to sell it for what you'll put into it if you have a big name gunmaker do the work. Presumably, the barrel will not be Winchester. There goes the collector value. And that caliber is marginal for dangerous game (not even legal in some areas). So it could be a tough sell even if you can find someone with a name who will put his brand on the project.

 

[Jack Stevens]

The point is a rifle can be perfect one way or the other, happy medium is not perfect for either.

THIS, for sure.

You don’t start with choosing the stock set-up first. You choose WHICH type of sight system you intend to hunt with: irons only or with an optic of some type (which today can be anything from a traditional low-powered, receiver-mounted scope to a forward-mounted LER “scout” scope to a modern RDS).

If, like me, you hunt with iron-sights primarily, then the stock gets contoured differently (typically in “Old School” style) than if you hunt with an optic primarily.

If you’re the “I-want-it-both-ways” type, then be prepared to have a compromised stock contour that attempts to split the difference in terms of cheekweld position and sighting-eye alignment.

In turn, that means you’ll have to practice shooting your rifle a lot both ways (irons v. optic) such that getting a natural point of aim either way is akin to a “muscle memory” acquired through repetition.

Not mine, but here’s an example of an Old School irons-only African rifle stock. A 425WR, I believe:

 

[Ontario Hunter]

THIS, for sure.

You don’t start with choosing the stock set-up first. You choose WHICH type of sight system you intend to hunt with: irons only or with an optic of some type (which today can be anything from a traditional low-powered, receiver-mounted scope to a forward-mounted LER “scout” scope to a modern RDS).

If, like me, you hunt with iron-sights primarily, then the stock gets contoured differently (typically in “Old School” style) than if you hunt with an optic primarily.

If you’re the “I-want-it-both-ways” type, then be prepared to have a compromised stock contour that attempts to split the difference in terms of cheekweld position and sighting-eye alignment.

In turn, that means you’ll have to practice shooting your rifle a lot both ways (irons v. optic) such that getting a natural point of aim either way is akin to a “muscle memory” acquired through repetition.

Not mine, but here’s an example of an Old School irons-only African rifle stock. A 425WR, I believe:

View attachment 600074

Yes, that clearly is a Westley Richards 425WR with their proprietary extended single stack magazine. Curiously, this rifle did not retain the stripper clip slot which made the cartridge popular with game managers (for fast reloading). This was the world's first rebated rim cartridge, allowing a thumper to be built on a standard action Mauser without opening the bolt face. Rebated rim feeding issues were overcome by changing to single stack.

I am intrigued. This may be my next build project. Apparently, double stack will work if the feeding rails are just right and the follower spring is beefed up. It would be a challenge. Finding loading components might be more challenging.

Thanks for posting and giving me something to think about. Further investigation needed.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Yes, that clearly is a Westley Richards 425WR with their proprietary extended single stack magazine. * * * Rebated rim feeding issues were overcome by changing to single stack

Actually, per several articles on WR 425 rifles, weak magazine springs were determined to be a causal factor in failing to lift the long heavy cartridges. Might not have been the only factor, but …

Thanks for posting and giving me something to think about. Further investigation needed.

Any time.

 

[steve white]

has anyone had a tastefully done adjustable comb cut and refitted with hex adjustments installed on their wood butt stocks? It is done on shotguns. Why could it not be applied to rifles for iron sight/scope sight interchangeability?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

has anyone had a tastefully done adjustable comb cut and refitted with hex adjustments installed on their wood butt stocks? It is done on shotguns. Why could it not be applied to rifles for iron sight/scope sight interchangeability?

The difference is moving targets vs stationary ones. Most rifle shots are preferably at still targets while most shotguns are used for moving targets (turkey hunting excepted). When shooting at moving targets, the shooter must shoot quickly. The gun needs to fit perfectly. When shooting at game with a rifle, the hunter typically has time to set up (e.g. get on the sticks) and the target is preferably not moving. Fit is still important but not as important. The rifle hunter typically has time to make himself fit the gun as needed (within limits of course).

Some bench rest target rifles do have adjustable combs. But those guns are typically impractical for field hunting. Too heavy and bulky.

Then we get into dangerous game rifles. For them the preference is still for the hunter to have time to set up for a standing target. But if things do go south, he needs to be able to get off the sticks and quickly shoot a moving target that may be incoming and ready to kill. Anyone with experience shooting moving targets will agree incoming are the hardest to hit. However, when things go south, the hunter as often as not won't have time to remove his scope and change the comb height. Even if he can get rid of his scope, will he have the tools and time to readjust the rifle's comb?

And finally, there's asthetics to consider. Who wants to go hunting in Africa with a gun from the Klingon home planet?

 

[Milan]

I never got this obsession with cheek weld or LOP or other fitment issues with generic stocks. Unless you have custom stock made just for you or a target rifle with adjustable everything, I find you are still compromising.

I prefer (and yes that is just my preference, not trying to convince anybody else) to use those "ugly", old-school rifles with stocks that have low combs because they were designed for open sights. Most of my scopes are in QD mounts so I can use sights, not just if I need to, but also when I want to. Sometimes when camping I want to still shoot a few shots the "old-school" way even if I can't see shit and need a scope for hunting anyway. I also warmed up a bit to straight comb stocks as they do tend to manage the recoil better and fit is better with a scope. But unless you run tall sights (which I do not particularly like), it is then hard or nearly impossible to use lower sights, so why even put sights on. I find it way easier to bring a rifle up to my shoulder and have an imperfect cheek weld with a scope, than to have a stock jammed into my cheek bone and still hunt for sight picture.

Even for silhouette shooting, we try to get a good cheek weld, length of pull, grip etc. just right but have to compromise, because the rules do not allow a comb higher than the centerline of the bore. We still shoot and still enjoy it.

So again, unless you have an Olympic Target rifle or Biathlon rifle style stock, good luck in generic stock being a "perfect fit".

 

[perdurabo]

So I asked Renner who he would recommend to do the work if not him, and he recommended a fellow by the name of John McLaughlin in MT. I sent Mr McLaughlin an email inquiring as to whether he might be able to work on such a project and a few days later I got a very curt reply saying essentially "don't bother me until July".

Ok. So then I decided to take the advice of @hoytcanon and tried to talk to just any old local gunsmith about my rebarrel work. As such, yesterday I went to the gunsmithy at the most well respected many decades old gun shop in San Antonio, Dury's Guns. I asked to speak to the senior smith or anyone who does custom work and out walks this middle aged fellow in a Brownell's apron with safety glasses on who seemed right out of central casting for a quintessential gunsmith. After describing the rebarrel work I am looking for to him, he hesitated a bit and then began to describe to me all of this expensive work involved in modifying the bolt face and receiver length and and magazine follower and how it would be better if I just bought a gun already chambered for 9.3x62... and then it gradually dawned on me that he had absolutely no clue what the 9.3x62 cartridge was or at least that it uses the same receiver length, magazine follower and bolt face as .270 Win/30-06. Rather than waste any more of anyone's time, I thanked him for his advice and promptly left the shop.

So... as I politely asked before... who can recommend a good smith (in the US) who has the experience to do this sort of work, ideally one who can get it done in less than a year?

 

[Jack Stevens]

So I asked Renner who he would recommend to do the work if not him, and he recommended a fellow by the name of John McLaughlin in MT. I sent Mr McLaughlin an email inquiring as to whether he might be able to work on such a project and a few days later I got a very curt reply saying essentially "don't bother me until July".

Ok. So then I decided to take the advice of @hoytcanon and tried to talk to just any old local gunsmith about my rebarrel work. As such, yesterday I went to the gunsmithy at the most well respected many decades old gun shop in San Antonio, Dury's Guns. I asked to speak to the senior smith or anyone who does custom work and out walks this middle aged fellow in a Brownell's apron with safety glasses on who seemed right out of central casting for a quintessential gunsmith. After describing the rebarrel work I am looking for to him, he hesitated a bit and then began to describe to me all of this expensive work involved in modifying the bolt face and receiver length and and magazine follower and how it would be better if I just bought a gun already chambered for 9.3x62... and then it gradually dawned on me that he had absolutely no clue what the 9.3x62 cartridge was or at least that it uses the same receiver length, magazine follower and bolt face as .270 Win/30-06. Rather than waste any more of anyone's time, I thanked him for his advice and promptly left the shop.

So... as I politely asked before... who can recommend a good smith (in the US) who has the experience to do this sort of work, ideally one who can get it done in less than a year?

My thought would be to shoot an email - with a pithy description of your project - to Wayne Jacobsen @ American Hunting Rifles (AHR).

Specifically ask him if he can’t take on your project as described, could he recommend a competent rifle-smith who might be able and willing to do so. If I recall correctly, Wayne keeps a referral list of ‘smiths whose big-bore rifle work he’s familiar with, so if he can’t or won’t accept a particular project for whatever reason (usually time and backlogged work), he’ll refer you on to another ‘smith.

As a pistol-smith buddy of mine who does amazing work on the 1911 breed likes to say:

“If you want it done right, bring a fat wallet and be prepared to wait. If you want it done fast and cheap, …. go to McDonald’s.”

 

[perdurabo]

Interestingly, I spoke to Wayne last year about working on my Brno ZKK 602 in 458 Lott to add his three position safety and trigger plus a few other cosmetic mods. He told me he's not taking on any more work at all, though it's not clear to me whether he meant no more CZ work, or no more work in general.

He did send me to Tim at Matrix Gunsmithing, who then also said that he was no longer taking any new work due to health problems. I eventually found Kevin Weaver in Colorado via someone's recommendation on this forum who took on the job of customizing my Brno and who had experience installing Waynes AHR safeties and triggers. I sent the rifle to Kevin last July and it's still there (the ETA has been pushed out many times), so I can't say for certain whether Mr Weaver does good work or not, but I'm pretty sure if I gave him yet another project that it likely wouldn't be done by summer of 25 when I'm headed back to Africa.

I'll talk to Wayne again anyway, he might have some sort of suggestion for me.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Interestingly, I spoke to Wayne last year about working on my Brno ZKK 602 in 458 Lott to add his three position safety and trigger plus a few other cosmetic mods. He told me he's not taking on any more work at all, though it's not clear to me whether he meant no more CZ work, or no more work in general.

He did send me to Tim at Matrix Gunsmithing, who then also said that he was no longer taking any new work due to health problems. I eventually found Kevin Weaver in Colorado via someone's recommendation on this forum who took on the job of customizing my Brno and who had experience installing Waynes AHR safeties and triggers. I sent the rifle to Kevin last July and it's still there (the ETA has been pushed out many times), so I can't say for certain whether Mr Weaver does good work or not, but I'm pretty sure if I gave him yet another project that it likely wouldn't be done by summer of 25 when I'm headed back to Africa.

I'll talk to Wayne again anyway, he might have some sort of suggestion for me.

Wayne might well have other ‘smiths he could recommend now. I recall some years back where he had announced publicly that he was handing off his line of BRNO and CZ 550 “upgrade“ work to Tim and his group @ Matrix.

If Matrix is shut down or simply not an option within your timeline for Africa, the simplest solution to get the rifle you want might be to look on one of the auction sites or post up a WTB ad with specifics.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

So I asked Renner who he would recommend to do the work if not him, and he recommended a fellow by the name of John McLaughlin in MT. I sent Mr McLaughlin an email inquiring as to whether he might be able to work on such a project and a few days later I got a very curt reply saying essentially "don't bother me until July".

Ok. So then I decided to take the advice of @hoytcanon and tried to talk to just any old local gunsmith about my rebarrel work. As such, yesterday I went to the gunsmithy at the most well respected many decades old gun shop in San Antonio, Dury's Guns. I asked to speak to the senior smith or anyone who does custom work and out walks this middle aged fellow in a Brownell's apron with safety glasses on who seemed right out of central casting for a quintessential gunsmith. After describing the rebarrel work I am looking for to him, he hesitated a bit and then began to describe to me all of this expensive work involved in modifying the bolt face and receiver length and and magazine follower and how it would be better if I just bought a gun already chambered for 9.3x62... and then it gradually dawned on me that he had absolutely no clue what the 9.3x62 cartridge was or at least that it uses the same receiver length, magazine follower and bolt face as .270 Win/30-06. Rather than waste any more of anyone's time, I thanked him for his advice and promptly left the shop.

So... as I politely asked before... who can recommend a good smith (in the US) who has the experience to do this sort of work, ideally one who can get it done in less than a year?

Since you’re in Texas, give Kerry O’Day a shout at MG Arms on Spring, TX, or call Gordy and Sons in Houston.