Religions, Evolution and related Sciences

[Red Leg]

I just dont limit our creator, God in any way, shape, or form.. if he can figure out how to make the heavens and earth and all of the creatures on it.. Im pretty sure he can figure out little green humaniods with oversized eyes that abduct cows in the middle of the night if he wants to..

Exactly. He is either omnipotent and omniscient or he isn't. If he isn't, then he isn't God.

 

[Hillbilly Marine]

After reading through 24 pages of this I have to throw in my 2 cents. My Grandfather was a Methodist preacher who had an incredible ability to explain these "complex" religious problems to kids and they still make sense to me today half a century later.

I remember him once telling me that "you must have a communion with the man upstairs. Only you know what that is." He was a great student of the Bible and went out of his way to maintain close relationships with other churches in the area be they Baptist, Pentacostal, Catholic, or Jewish. He said to understand others faiths one must have at least an open mind with them "no matter how wrong they may be" as he always said with a smile and a chuckle.

Coming to God is a most personal thing. I can only pray that I have lived a life and passed on to my kids and grandkids the faith I have found, not necessarily in a church with 4 walls and a roof, but rather from being in God's natural cathedral of the woods and streams where one can actually see the hand of God at work.

 

[3chunter]

Scientific evolution is about as phony as Obama birth certificate.
The earth is merely thousands of years old.
God and Jesus is real and happened.
Period. The end.

 

[mark-hunter]

Scientific evolution is about as phony as Obama birth certificate.
The earth is merely thousands of years old.
God and Jesus is real and happened.
Period. The end.

Explain dinosaurs? Museums are full of their bones.

 

[RLD]

Scientific evolution is about as phony as Obama birth certificate.
The earth is merely thousands of years old.
God and Jesus is real and happened.
Period. The end.

Speaking of dinosaurs...

 

[Red Leg]

Scientific evolution is about as phony as Obama birth certificate.
The earth is merely thousands of years old.
God and Jesus is real and happened.
Period. The end.

So, you will ignore three centuries of scientific discovery since the enlightenment, and yet will unquestionably accept a biblical timeline created not by God, but in the 16th century by an Irish Anglican bishop named James Ussher, who scratching his head over all the begets and unfathomable lifespans of Genesis (and without any of the geologic or palaeontologic understanding of today), somehow determined that God finished creating the earth on October 23, 4004 BC!?!

Virtually all the major religious movements in the West dropped that ignorance-based conclusion a century ago. They did so because most understand that belief had nothing to do with a quirky date formula developed by a MAN trying to put limits on the sweeping creative genius of God.

Sorry, but if I had to choose which is more likely "phony" it isn't even close. But then, I don't inhabit those corners of the internet where Obama's birth certificate is still a thing.

 

[tarbe]

To those who are truly interested....

I highly recommend you give serious study to the uses of the term "heaven and earth" throughout the first testament.

If you read "heaven and earth" in the second testament, and understand the term in a 21st century Western literal way, you are going to miss the true meaning intended.

The term must be understood the way the recipients of the writings would have understood the term...not the way someone in 21st century America might naturally understand it.

Audience relevance is the term used in hermeneutics to describe this concept. It is essential to properly understanding scripture. Without it, we can make scripture say almost anything we want.

Coupled with context and the Analogy of Faith (scripture interprets scripture) and we have a chance to come closer to understanding God's Word.

 

[Aaron N]

Scientific evolution is about as phony as Obama birth certificate.
The earth is merely thousands of years old.
God and Jesus is real and happened.
Period. The end.

Six million thousands is still six billion, so you might be on to something.

 

[Red Leg]

For those who are stuck trying to make sense of this young earth issue, let me offer a couple of arguments that are worth thinking through before blindly accepting something formulated in the 16th century that was little more than a human math exercise rather than accepting and observing God's creation itself.

I think most anyone with a basic education understands the concept of the speed of light - that it travels at roughly 186,000 miles per second (we have no need to get into red shift and other curious things about it). Therefore when we look at a star, we are actually looking back in time at the light rays that left that star however many light years away it is. With telescopes we can see fainter objects. The Andromeda galaxy, a similar spiral galaxy to the the Milky Way, is 2.5 million light years from Earth. If it is that far away, and if we can see it, then the universe is at least that old. Were Andromeda only 6000 light years away, it would dominate our night sky as does our own.

Ice core samples are an even easier form of evidence to see and understand. Ice pacts are laid down seasonally and like rings on a tree are easily counted. Those in Greenland and the Antarctic are the oldest on the planet. Were the young earth theory correct we should be able to count no more than 6,000 rings before hitting bedrock. Instead cores from Greenland go back more than 100,000 years and those in the Antarctic to more than 800,000 years.

Like ice cores, varves (sedimentary layers) are deposited in glacial lakes in an annual pattern. Those of the Green River formation in the Western US contain more than 6 million annual deposits.

Finally, there is the radiometric dating process which relies on predicable decay of radioactive isotopes like Uranium-238. It has a decay rate of 4.47 billion years. There is no mechanism for speeding up that process. Samples studied with that methodology are accurately aged. The process is even more accurate if done using the Isochron dating method which uses multiple samples from the same deposit to rule out contamination.

Assuming we have an all knowing and all powerful God, which we must for him to be God, then he knew we would discover these means to measure the expanse of his creation both in size and age. If not, then this all powerful being is nothing more than the Norse God Loki pulling a gigantic practical joke on mankind. As a believer, I have no problem choosing the former.

 

[Ray B]

@3chunter - I'll skip all of the old artifacts and questions about how did the light get here from so far away and the various adjustments in the Earth's surface If you will answer one simple question. In both the old (Isaiah) and new (Revelation) the earth is noted to have FOUR CORNERS. Please provide Latitude and Longitude coordinates of the four corners. Extra credit: If one goes past those spots, will they fall off?

 

[Hogpatrol]

@3chunter - I'll skip all of the old artifacts and questions about how did the light get here from so far away and the various adjustments in the Earth's surface If you will answer one simple question. In both the old (Isaiah) and new (Revelation) the earth is noted to have FOUR CORNERS. Please provide Latitude and Longitude coordinates of the four corners. Extra credit: If one goes past those spots, will they fall off?

Actually, it's flat. This has allegedly been taken from space. If you go too far, you won't fall off. Gravity will pull you back from the edge. Saw this on the web so it must be true.

 

[rookhawk]

For those who are stuck trying to make sense of this young earth issue, let me offer a couple of arguments that are worth thinking through before blindly accepting something formulated in the 16th century that was little more than a human math exercise rather than accepting and observing God's creation itself.

I think most anyone with a basic education understands the concept of the speed of light - that it travels at roughly 186,000 miles per second (we have no need to get into red shift and other curious things about it). Therefore when we look at a star, we are actually looking back in time at the light rays that left that star however many light years away it is. With telescopes we can see fainter objects. The Andromeda galaxy, a similar spiral galaxy to the the Milky Way, is 2.5 million light years from Earth. If it is that far away, and if we can see it, then the universe is at least that old. Were Andromeda only 6000 light years away, it would dominate our night sky as does our own.

Ice core samples are an even easier form of evidence to see and understand. Ice pacts are laid down seasonally and like rings on a tree are easily counted. Those in Greenland and the Antarctic are the oldest on the planet. Were the young earth theory correct we should be able to count no more than 6,000 rings before hitting bedrock. Instead cores from Greenland go back more than 100,000 years and those in the Antarctic to more than 800,000 years.

Like ice cores, varves (sedimentary layers) are deposited in glacial lakes in an annual pattern. Those of the Green River formation in the Western US contain more than 6 million annual deposits.

Finally, there is the radiometric dating process which relies on predicable decay of radioactive isotopes like Uranium-238. It has a decay rate of 4.47 billion years. There is no mechanism for speeding up that process. Samples studied with that methodology are accurately aged. The process is even more accurate if done using the Isochron dating method which uses multiple samples from the same deposit to rule out contamination.

Assuming we have an all knowing and all powerful God, which we must for him to be God, then he knew we would discover these means to measure the expanse of his creation both in size and age. If not, then this all powerful being is nothing more than the Norse God Loki pulling a gigantic practical joke on mankind. As a believer, I have no problem choosing the former.

The faster someone understands @Red Leg's post, the faster one can interpret Genesis to understand "what is a man", "what is sin", "why are we here", and "what is our relationship with the creator".

The scriptures would be far less profound if it told us about Hicks Bosons, String Theory, and Quarks than it does at answering the profound philosophical questions that persist across the history of mankind.

When someone makes the claim that the Bible is a science text, it undermines its higher value and also discredits any intellectual curiosity in what it says. In short, the young earthers are anti-evangelists pushing away a great many people from learning profound truths.

 

[baxterb]

The scriptures would be far less profound if it told us about Hicks Bosons, String Theory, and Quarks than it does at answering the profound philosophical questions that persist across the history of mankind.

Hear, hear. I love me some good scientific knowledge and info, but in comparison to the “big ideas” that actually touch the heart of man, I find it patently boring.

And I have always been humbled by the fact that the greatest of our technological achievements have always been possible since the dawn of time. The basic fabric with which we have used our growing body of knowledge to make things from like rockets and iPhones etc, has been there the whole time. We in fact have not created anything, only discovered that things can be done, elements can be combined in certain ways to achieve certain results. It’s always been there. It’s a kind of Sponozist perspective.

 

[cwpayton]

For those who are stuck trying to make sense of this young earth issue, let me offer a couple of arguments that are worth thinking through before blindly accepting something formulated in the 16th century that was little more than a human math exercise rather than accepting and observing God's creation itself.

I think most anyone with a basic education understands the concept of the speed of light - that it travels at roughly 186,000 miles per second (we have no need to get into red shift and other curious things about it). Therefore when we look at a star, we are actually looking back in time at the light rays that left that star however many light years away it is. With telescopes we can see fainter objects. The Andromeda galaxy, a similar spiral galaxy to the the Milky Way, is 2.5 million light years from Earth. If it is that far away, and if we can see it, then the universe is at least that old. Were Andromeda only 6000 light years away, it would dominate our night sky as does our own.

Ice core samples are an even easier form of evidence to see and understand. Ice pacts are laid down seasonally and like rings on a tree are easily counted. Those in Greenland and the Antarctic are the oldest on the planet. Were the young earth theory correct we should be able to count no more than 6,000 rings before hitting bedrock. Instead cores from Greenland go back more than 100,000 years and those in the Antarctic to more than 800,000 years.

Like ice cores, varves (sedimentary layers) are deposited in glacial lakes in an annual pattern. Those of the Green River formation in the Western US contain more than 6 million annual deposits.

Finally, there is the radiometric dating process which relies on predicable decay of radioactive isotopes like Uranium-238. It has a decay rate of 4.47 billion years. There is no mechanism for speeding up that process. Samples studied with that methodology are accurately aged. The process is even more accurate if done using the Isochron dating method which uses multiple samples from the same deposit to rule out contamination.

Assuming we have an all knowing and all powerful God, which we must for him to be God, then he knew we would discover these means to measure the expanse of his creation both in size and age. If not, then this all powerful being is nothing more than the Norse God Loki pulling a gigantic practical joke on mankind. As a believer, I have no problem choosing the former.

Red leg you are your own worst enemy , so light years prove the age of the earth? AND GOD SAID,' LET THERE BE LIGHT" and there was! Proof of our omniscient ,almighty ,everlasting ,the I AM ,Yahweh. Everything God does is Perfection, " and he saw it was good" , the perfect garden of Eden , Without faith it is impossible to please God . about everything That the Christ did on earth to show he was who he said he was ,was beyond natural science. I.E. Walking on water, commanding the wind and waves to obey him, healing a blind man, healing a sick daughter of the Roman centurion, raising a dead man, "Lazaras" Healing a leper, turning water into wine,{ instantly by the way not over months], Cursing a fig tree and it died, replacing a Romans ear that Peter cut off, And the list goes on , way more than was recorded. Can science explain these things, no because you cant explain YAHWEH, he is "OMNISCIENT " right! Was Christ both man and GOD, yep, was he creator, yep. did he do these things by his almighty power ,yep, so did he RAISE From THE DEAD by his almighty ,miraculous power, yep. can science show or explain that fact? Il wait on that.
Christ said you must have faith as a little child to enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18-3,That maybe a problem for some, but not if you accept him, thats the only way you will. enter.
You keep referring to Anglican James Ussher. That sir, isnt my source , its Christ saying "in the beginning" several times, and he should know , he was there.
So then you want to believe in a billion year old creation , do so, I can recommend a preacher who believes that way, and teaches fantastic things. DR. LARRY OLLISON.
I need a fantastic Omniscient God that does the impossible , like raising the dead , and forgiving the wages of sin, instantaneously . If that makes me an "anti- Evangelist "= [ rookhawk] Who then has the problem ? Me or the unbelievers. Christ has promised a new heaven and a new earth for believers. Revelation 21-1-4. According to you he must have started working on it a long ,long time ago, to have it ready for its debut.
IF you are correct and I am WRONG, well so what, I know the man who has the keys to death and hades Revelation 1-18 , and thats what really counts. I would hope you agree. Can you prove by science the miracles he did? No! but alot of people saw and said if happened, and then there are alot who say it never did, count me on the side of the believing. If you want to believe in a billion year old earth, I dont judge you for that, as far as possible I desire to be at peace with all men., the apostle Paul said"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise," and in JOB, 38 have you commanded the morning since your days began and caused the dawn to know its place. GOD ask Job " have you understood the expanse of the earth, -where is the way to the dwelling of light"? so if Job had carbon 14 dating and knowledge of the speed of light, he could have said , sure God let me explain a few things to ya? No, no way. Or yea just let me ask GROK.
Scripture says Romans 1-20. ," since the creation of the world,, his invisible attributes ,eternal power, Devine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what he has made. NAS. we understand this ! It was created by power ,his power! not a happenstance chance of 1 in a billion occurrence . that everything happened to come togather in just such an evolving luck of the draw way that earth got oxygen and water and light and seasons and dirt and gravity, snow ,rain tides oceans, and the moon did not.

 

[Ray B]

@cwpayton - Since you apparently in the
The Bible says it
I believe it
That settles it
Camp
I'll ask you the same question I asked @3chunter :
Where are the four corners of the Earth?
But for Extra Credit I'll ask one more:
Does it seem to be something that a Loving God would do, considering complete knowledge that Eve and Adam would fail- that God would go ahead and continue where life was nothing more than a boot camp for eternity, given that per your understanding billions of people would be born destined to fail and spend eternity in Hell?
Extra Credit part 2: How many years in Heaven will it be before life on Earth is such a remote memory that Heaven seems the norm and you can remember nothing else? Maybe 10,000 years? 1,000,000 years? 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years? Even at that, it would be just starting.

 

[mark-hunter]

Common people!

You are splitting the hair about ancient scripts written by man.

The first post, and the first sentence by OP of this thread speaks of UFO, and disclosure of classified files about them.
US govt is opening the archives and uploading files in public domain.
Unprecedented situation.

Roswell 1947 incident is occupying public imagination for decades. It is either alien crash, or some govt disinformation scheme. The public is split and torn about this

Bible does not mention anywhere any type or appearance of UFO. Decoding the bible, will not lead you to explain UFO.

The religious belief is centered on human place on earth, and in essence it is geocentric and anthropocentric philosophy. No place for aliens there.

Then, things started to change:
In last 100 years, we discovered the vastness of space, other planets away from our solar system, and we have recorded solid footage of UFO.

So, with the direction where this discussion goes, you are moving away from initial subject, which refers directly to UFO files dislcosure and its effect on religion.


Now, about UFO:
- They are here - as recorded on official records, numerous times.
- So, far - there is no proof of their hostile activity, or any proof of their friendly activity
- So, far, there is no proof of alien or extraterrestrial intelligent life.

- The (unproven) idea of the existence and of the presence of extraterrestrial intelligent life, collides with religious anthropocentric and geocentric philosophy.
Bible does not answer to this question. Deocoding bible, will not help here

So, where we are after disclosure of those files? Any official statement by any church?

What say you?

https://www.war.gov/ufo/?releaseDate=Release+03&release=03

 

[3chunter]

Explain dinosaurs? Museums are full of their bones.

Dinosaurs all died off in the flood about 6-7000 years ago or so.
The flood created the mountains, that’s why you find fossils on mountains such as in Wyoming. Grand Canyon for instance created by massive rush of water.
all this scientific data on how old a sample of something is, hogwash and it’s basis of aging is flawed. Earth is roundish but more rounded or fatter in the middle and flatter at its poles.
Four corners are really north, south,east, west.

 

[mark-hunter]

Ok. So we have young earth creationism theory on the forum.
While this holds its own, without support of at least one of each: modern geology, paleontology, astronomy, physics, and biology.

Let me ask one more thing:
How about UFO, aliens, extraterrestrials visiting the earth. How to explain that?

 

[3chunter]

Ok. So we have young earth creationism theory on the forum.
While this holds its own, without support of at least one of each: modern geology, paleontology, astronomy, physics, and biology.

Let me ask one more thing:
How about UFO, aliens, extraterrestrials visiting the earth. How to explain that?

Do you know any aliens from outter space? What are their names. In all seriousness, I don’t have an explanation for Bigfoot or aliens. I have never run across them.
Divine individuals is what the Bible mentions but not sure if that could be associated with aliens or not.
Funny thing is, I have never seen an alien in a museum. So at this point in my life I don’t think they are real nor ever existed but it’s possible according to interpretation in the Bible.

 

[RLD]

Red leg you are your own worst enemy , so light years prove the age of the earth? AND GOD SAID,' LET THERE BE LIGHT" and there was! Proof of our omniscient ,almighty ,everlasting ,the I AM ,Yahweh. Everything God does is Perfection, " and he saw it was good" , the perfect garden of Eden , Without faith it is impossible to please God . about everything That the Christ did on earth to show he was who he said he was ,was beyond natural science. I.E. Walking on water, commanding the wind and waves to obey him, healing a blind man, healing a sick daughter of the Roman centurion, raising a dead man, "Lazaras" Healing a leper, turning water into wine,{ instantly by the way not over months], Cursing a fig tree and it died, replacing a Romans ear that Peter cut off, And the list goes on , way more than was recorded. Can science explain these things, no because you cant explain YAHWEH, he is "OMNISCIENT " right! Was Christ both man and GOD, yep, was he creator, yep. did he do these things by his almighty power ,yep, so did he RAISE From THE DEAD by his almighty ,miraculous power, yep. can science show or explain that fact? Il wait on that.
Christ said you must have faith as a little child to enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18-3,That maybe a problem for some, but not if you accept him, thats the only way you will. enter.
You keep referring to Anglican James Ussher. That sir, isnt my source , its Christ saying "in the beginning" several times, and he should know , he was there.
So then you want to believe in a billion year old creation , do so, I can recommend a preacher who believes that way, and teaches fantastic things. DR. LARRY OLLISON.
I need a fantastic Omniscient God that does the impossible , like raising the dead , and forgiving the wages of sin, instantaneously . If that makes me an "anti- Evangelist "= [ rookhawk] Who then has the problem ? Me or the unbelievers. Christ has promised a new heaven and a new earth for believers. Revelation 21-1-4. According to you he must have started working on it a long ,long time ago, to have it ready for its debut.
IF you are correct and I am WRONG, well so what, I know the man who has the keys to death and hades Revelation 1-18 , and thats what really counts. I would hope you agree. Can you prove by science the miracles he did? No! but alot of people saw and said if happened, and then there are alot who say it never did, count me on the side of the believing. If you want to believe in a billion year old earth, I dont judge you for that, as far as possible I desire to be at peace with all men., the apostle Paul said"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise," and in JOB, 38 have you commanded the morning since your days began and caused the dawn to know its place. GOD ask Job " have you understood the expanse of the earth, -where is the way to the dwelling of light"? so if Job had carbon 14 dating and knowledge of the speed of light, he could have said , sure God let me explain a few things to ya? No, no way. Or yea just let me ask GROK.
Scripture says Romans 1-20. ," since the creation of the world,, his invisible attributes ,eternal power, Devine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what he has made. NAS. we understand this ! It was created by power ,his power! not a happenstance chance of 1 in a billion occurrence . that everything happened to come togather in just such an evolving luck of the draw way that earth got oxygen and water and light and seasons and dirt and gravity, snow ,rain tides oceans, and the moon did not.

While that is a lovely thick block of text, can you explain to me the contradiction between God saying "let there be light" and using the speed of light to calculate a time?

It's really no different than calculating the time a train left a station based on its speed and distance. Is that somehow offensive to you as well?