Refinished Double Rifles

[yhc]

Good evening. When I browse some of the DRs listed on GI, etc. I see some rifles that have been refinished. Some of the names mentioned are Turnbull, Chris Soyza, or just generic verbiage of "100% reconditioned in the UK", etc.

How does refinishing effect the value of a DR? I understand Chris Soyza was a very well respected gunsmith and I would assume that his refinished DR would not suffer any devaluation. However, being a newbie to DRs, I wanted to solicit your informed opinions.

Regards,

yhc

 

[Dewald]

It was very much the norm for the hunters of yesteryear to send their shotguns and rifles back to the manufacturer for service and repair after the season. If a rifle worked hard and needed to be reblued or needed the checkering recut, it was done, and in doing so the rifle kept its appearance and value. There exists no reason to not do it today with a fine double, and it shouldn’t affect its value if done correctly. Unfortunately people apply the logic of coin or stamp collectors to working firearms, and hence the misconception is born that a double rifle or shotgun needs to be untouched to retain its value.

That said, obviously there is refinishing and refinishing. If Bubba descends on a double rifle with his buffing wheel in one hand, and a bottle of Birchwood Casey cold blue in the other, and leaves not a sign of engraving, nor a sharp corner on the action, then yes - the value is lost.

Chris Soyza’s work was indeed very well respected.

 

[Red Leg]

@Dewald has this one pretty much covered. Almost all British doubles that were well maintained by their owners went back to the maker for a bit of "refreshing." Besides a thorough action inspection and cleaning, case colors might be restored, barrels re-blacked, or the stock finish re-oiled. Therefore, one rarely finds a classic British firearm that can be proved to truly be 100% original condition. Only in this country do buyers treat older American firearms like coin collectors treat coins with percentages of "original" condition and priced accordingly.

To your specific question, experts like Turnbull, Soyza, and DelGrego (Parkers) don't really "refinish" fine guns - they "restore" them. There is a huge difference, and it makes a huge difference in the value of the gun. Too often I have seen what once was a fine double - rifle or shotgun - that has hot tank blued barrels, torched case colors, and stocks refinished with almost anything but traditional oil. Such s gun is of no value to someone who knows doubles, but all too often finds its way into the hands of a novice buyer who believes he has found a deal.

 

[Hammergun]

I agree with what is written above except the refreshing of case colors. It is my understanding that all finishes of vintage guns were routinely redone except for color hardening.

I believe that it is a modern American demand for fresh hardening colors that causes many vintage guns to be re-hardened and this was not normally done in the vintage British trade.

The process is rather extreme and must be expertly done to avoid problems.

 

[yhc]

Thanks for the insightful replies.

Regards,

 

[ddog]

Good words here. I'd shy away from recolored double rifles. Many times the process of re-coloring alters the frame dimensions slightly. If the re-colored rifle has a dolls head then sometimes the dolls head does not fit properly. Most of the barrels on old rifles have been re-blacked, and not a issue if done properly.

 

[wesheltonj]

Cannot add much to what has already been said. I will add if you want a Browning gun restored then your guy is Art's Guns:
https://artsgunshop.com

a Parker Bros gun:
http://parkershotgunrepair.com

I have had work done by both and can recommend both for those guns.

 

[vette447]

These are all good notes for British fine guns in general (magazine and doubles). They were almost all refinished or refreshed at some point in time by the maker or another competent gunmaker in England.

I had this same discussion with someone about a Holland & Holland rifle I have for sale. The gentlemen backed out because I told him I was relatively sure at least the stock had been refinished/refreshed in England at some time prior to me owning it. This was mainly because it looked really clean and I know that most of these rifles were sent back to be refreshed after a campaign of use. It was procured for me by a VERY well respected dealer/gunmaker in England and I imported it so I know I have not done anything to it here in the US. Also, I am pretty sure that the barreled action had not been refreshed as it looked original and showed some use. Sadly, the guy backed out as he stated he was an H&H collector and didn't want any refinished guns in his collection. Too bad.

 

[Red Leg]

These are all good notes for British fine guns in general (magazine and doubles). They were almost all refinished or refreshed at some point in time by the maker or another competent gunmaker in England.

I had this same discussion with someone about a Holland & Holland rifle I have for sale. The gentlemen backed out because I told him I was relatively sure at least the stock had been refinished/refreshed in England at some time prior to me owning it. This was mainly because it looked really clean and I know that most of these rifles were sent back to be refreshed after a campaign of use. It was procured for me by a VERY well respected dealer/gunmaker in England and I imported it so I know I have not done anything to it here in the US. Also, I am pretty sure that the barreled action had not been refreshed as it looked original and showed some use. Sadly, the guy backed out as he stated he was an H&H collector and didn't want any refinished guns in his collection. Too bad.

Then he clearly doesn't know very much about his own collection.

 

[wesheltonj]

These are all good notes for British fine guns in general (magazine and doubles). They were almost all refinished or refreshed at some point in time by the maker or another competent gunmaker in England.

I had this same discussion with someone about a Holland & Holland rifle I have for sale. The gentlemen backed out because I told him I was relatively sure at least the stock had been refinished/refreshed in England at some time prior to me owning it. This was mainly because it looked really clean and I know that most of these rifles were sent back to be refreshed after a campaign of use. It was procured for me by a VERY well respected dealer/gunmaker in England and I imported it so I know I have not done anything to it here in the US. Also, I am pretty sure that the barreled action had not been refreshed as it looked original and showed some use. Sadly, the guy backed out as he stated he was an H&H collector and didn't want any refinished guns in his collection. Too bad.

I can understand, if he did not know who may have restored or refinished the gun. However, if it was H&H not a problem. I think @Red Leg is being polite by saying he does not know very much about his collection.

 

[vette447]

As stated above, I think it is mostly an American collector thing. Old Colts or Winchesters are (understandably) vastly more valuable in high original condition.

That is part of why I really enjoy collecting and using fine British sporting arms. You can have a really nice rifle and use it for its intended purpose and not feel like you are destroying its value (assuming you take good care of it). You surely wouldn’t want to take a near mint original Winchester 1886 on a bear hunt and get it wet or scratched up as you would devalue it considerably. If you take a really nice Holland & Holland 375 on a hunt, you have great memories of using a fine and historic tool and if you wish, you can have it refreshed by a proper restorer/gunsmith without doing harm.

Now, all of the above statements assume you take it to a properly trained and skilled gunmaker. Absolutely no “Bubba” gunsmiths are allowed near my rifles.

 

[AES]

These are all good notes for British fine guns in general (magazine and doubles). They were almost all refinished or refreshed at some point in time by the maker or another competent gunmaker in England.

I had this same discussion with someone about a Holland & Holland rifle I have for sale. The gentlemen backed out because I told him I was relatively sure at least the stock had been refinished/refreshed in England at some time prior to me owning it. This was mainly because it looked really clean and I know that most of these rifles were sent back to be refreshed after a campaign of use. It was procured for me by a VERY well respected dealer/gunmaker in England and I imported it so I know I have not done anything to it here in the US. Also, I am pretty sure that the barreled action had not been refreshed as it looked original and showed some use. Sadly, the guy backed out as he stated he was an H&H collector and didn't want any refinished guns in his collection. Too bad.

What exactly do you have for sale? . . .

 

[vette447]

I have a couple of fine rifle listings in the Classified section but this is the one I was alluding to above:

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-h-magnum-best-sporting-magazine-rifle.56016/

 

[RayAtkinson]

Dewald cover pretty good...as applied to double rifles.