Red dot on Double

[Nhoro]

I see a few inconsistencies in @Racer00 post. If your eye is 1mm off centre and the sight is on the action, parallax will be greater and the red dot will be further off zero. A red dot mounted far forward on the front sight (exaggerated), with the same 1mm off centre eye placement would be closer to zero than the red dot mounted on the action. Your angles are actually smaller if the distances are stretched and you would be more accurate. So I would say that the further from your eye, the more accurate but maybe it will be slower because the dot is less bright and a little harder to pick up.

I agree that a close sight will give more field of view through the sight window. But I believe that the benefit of the red dot sight is both eyes open and periferal vision is enhanced. Theory is that your brain simply lays the red dot over your normal vision. So it wouldnt really matter where the sight is. I can see that a red dot will be bigger and brighter close to the eye. I would guess that a small RMR would almost dissapear further from the eye but maybe the bulkier closed emmitter sights would obscure too much of the target, So bulkier sights may need to be closer to the eye in order to have a good field of vision but smaller thin framed sights can be further from the eye because you can see all around them and your brain simply overlays the dot ?

Lastly, is a 1 moa dot at 8 " the same relative size as a 3 moa dot at 24" or a 2 moa dot at 16" ?

What I am seeing is that there doesnt seem to be any consensus on mounting distance and it all seems to be personal preference. I would have though the military would have done some testing and figured this stuff out ie a 2 moa dot at 12" is best from 0 to 50 yards and maybe a 1 moa at same distance is best to 200 yards or something like that.

 

[Racer00]

@Nhoro Reasonable thought. Certainly something to think on. Not my article, as a matter of fact, I don't have that much experience with different placement of the sight. Both my 470 doubles (Chapuis and Merkel) have had an RMR mounted by JJ. He typically (at least in my cases) mounts them forward using the rear sight as a recoil lug.

I see a gentleman is making mount for the RMR on a Chapuis that uses the rear cut out in the rib. When he releases them for sale, I plan to get one and do some experimenting to see which my eyes prefer. I'll try to let everyone here know what I find.

I have a hunt in Zim in November and the double will be put to use then, so I hope to sort this issues out over the next few month. Keep the info flowing to this thread. It is a benefit to all of us double gunners.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I see a few inconsistencies in @Racer00 post. If your eye is 1mm off centre and the sight is on the action, parallax will be greater and the red dot will be further off zero. A red dot mounted far forward on the front sight (exaggerated), with the same 1mm off centre eye placement would be closer to zero than the red dot mounted on the action. Your angles are actually smaller if the distances are stretched and you would be more accurate. So I would say that the further from your eye, the more accurate but maybe it will be slower because the dot is less bright and a little harder to pick up.

I agree that a close sight will give more field of view through the sight window. But I believe that the benefit of the red dot sight is both eyes open and periferal vision is enhanced. Theory is that your brain simply lays the red dot over your normal vision. So it wouldnt really matter where the sight is. I can see that a red dot will be bigger and brighter close to the eye. I would guess that a small RMR would almost dissapear further from the eye but maybe the bulkier closed emmitter sights would obscure too much of the target, So bulkier sights may need to be closer to the eye in order to have a good field of vision but smaller thin framed sights can be further from the eye because you can see all around them and your brain simply overlays the dot ?

Lastly, is a 1 moa dot at 8 " the same relative size as a 3 moa dot at 24" or a 2 moa dot at 16" ?

What I am seeing is that there doesnt seem to be any consensus on mounting distance and it all seems to be personal preference. I would have though the military would have done some testing and figured this stuff out ie a 2 moa dot at 12" is best from 0 to 50 yards and maybe a 1 moa at same distance is best to 200 yards or something like that.

I don’t mean any offense because I read and like your posts. In this case I think you are over-thinking this. Bear with me...

Parallax is not an issue for reflex sight marksmen because these are essentially short range sights. No one who has a choice would use a reflex sight to shoot a prairie dot at 300 yards. Further for any long range shooting with a reflex sight, 100 yards for me, I am taking my time ensuring I have as much bone support, muscular realization, and natural point of aim, cheek weld and so on as possible. All of those fundamentals reduce any shooter induced parallax. For in your face snap shooting when the target trying to kill the shooter, the target will be so close that even a large amount of parallax won’t put shots outside the necessary minute of buffalo!

In many of my posts on the subject of reflex sights, I have written in no uncertain terms that the dot increases in size when intensity in increased. I prefer a 1 MOA dot but it’s only a usable 1 MOA on overcast days of dawn or dusk. Let the sun shine and I must increase the reflex sight’s intensity to even see the dot! This doubles and even triples the dot size! If on a dark day I want a larger dot, a few clicks will double the dot size. Personally, I don't need a big dot. I just want it bright enough to get my attention when I should the weapon.

As for the size of the dot in reference to reflex sight distance from the eye, I do not notice a difference from 6” to arm’s length. The dot appears the same size to my eyes.

“Lastly, is a 1 moa dot at 8 " the same relative size as a 3 moa dot at 24" or a 2 moa dot at 16" ?”
Yes, please see the chart below.

The size of the reflex sight housing doesn’t matter much for the smaller, modern sights be they open or closed emitter. When sighting the weapon, the shooter sees the screen framed by the sight’s housing. The human brain naturally aligns circles of different sizes which explains why aperture sights are used for target rifles both front and rear!

The reflex sight housing even if its square is pretty much a circle that if the shooter noticed it, would be naturally centered around the target. As for me, I see the target and the dot, but not the sight housing.

I hope the above helps

 

[Nhoro]

@Nhoro Reasonable thought. Certainly something to think on. Not my article, as a matter of fact, I don't have that much experience with different placement of the sight. Both my 470 doubles (Chapuis and Merkel) have had an RMR mounted by JJ. He typically (at least in my cases) mounts them forward using the rear sight as a recoil lug.

I see a gentleman is making mount for the RMR on a Chapuis that uses the rear cut out in the rib. When he releases them for sale, I plan to get one and do some experimenting to see which my eyes prefer. I'll try to let everyone here know what I find.

I have a hunt in Zim in November and the double will be put to use then, so I hope to sort this issues out over the next few month. Keep the info flowing to this thread. It is a benefit to all of us double gunners.

I have a pdf of a mount that replaces the rear sight on a CZ 550. It has a built in open sight V and mounts an RMR or similar red dot in front I am sure a similar plan can be made on a double. This sight and mount drifts into the sight dove tail. I am not sure how the rear sight fits on a double ?

 

[Nhoro]

I don’t mean any offense because I read and like your posts. In this case I think you are over-thinking this. Bear with me...

Parallax is not an issue for reflex sight marksmen because these are essentially short range sights. No one who has a choice would use a reflex sight to shoot a prairie dot at 300 yards. Further for any long range shooting with a reflex sight, 100 yards for me, I am taking my time ensuring I have as much bone support, muscular realization, and natural point of aim, cheek weld and so on as possible. All of those fundamentals reduce any shooter induced parallax. For in your face snap shooting when the target trying to kill the shooter, the target will be so close that even a large amount of parallax won’t put shots outside the necessary minute of buffalo!

In many of my posts on the subject of reflex sights, I have written in no uncertain terms that the dot increases in size when intensity in increased. I prefer a 1 MOA dot but it’s only a usable 1 MOA on overcast days of dawn or dusk. Let the sun shine and I must increase the reflex sight’s intensity to even see the dot! This doubles and even triples the dot size! If on a dark day I want a larger dot, a few clicks will double the dot size. Personally, I don't need a big dot. I just want it bright enough to get my attention when I should the weapon.

As for the size of the dot in reference to reflex sight distance from the eye, I do not notice a difference from 6” to arm’s length. The dot appears the same size to my eyes.

“Lastly, is a 1 moa dot at 8 " the same relative size as a 3 moa dot at 24" or a 2 moa dot at 16" ?”
Yes, please see the chart below.

View attachment 770871
The size of the reflex sight housing doesn’t matter much for the smaller, modern sights be they open or closed emitter. When sighting the weapon, the shooter sees the screen framed by the sight’s housing. The human brain naturally aligns circles of different sizes which explains why aperture sights are used for target rifles both front and rear!
View attachment 770872
The reflex sight housing even if its square is pretty much a circle that if the shooter noticed it, would be naturally centered around the target. As for me, I see the target and the dot, but not the sight housing.

I hope the above helps

It all makes sense, I am interested in the concept and will have to fit a red dot on my CZ at some stage. Open sights currently. Being a CZ, I will probably fit it on the front bridge. Otherwise, I may make my own version of a replacement back sight and red dot mount as I mentioned above. But if I were going to the expense of milling bits of a double rifle, I would want to be sure it was in the right place.

But you are right, I probably overthink things. My front sight covers about 4 moa and I am comfortable with that. Previous front sight was probably 2 moa and that was hard to find quickly.

 

[dogcat1]

Haven’t seen any PH’s using red dots…. I thought the point of using a double was to be like the pro’s.
If you need or use use optics , get a bolt rifle…
If you like open sights , like on a shotgun, use a double.
If you like red dots , use an AR15.
I guess I am too set in my ways…

 

[Racer00]

@dogcat1 said:
Haven’t seen any PH’s using red dots…. I thought the point of using a double was to be like the pro’s.
If you need or use use optics , get a bolt rifle…
If you like open sights , like on a shotgun, use a double.
If you like red dots , use an AR15.
I guess I am too set in my ways…

I apologize for not living up to your standards on my sighting options on my double rifle. I have hunted DG with 3 different PH's. One used a double with open sights. The other two both used bolt rifles, one with open sights, one with a red dot. I guess they didn't get the memo that they needed to use open sighted doubles or put scopes on their bolt rifles.

I use a double on DG because I enjoy shooting it. Possibly for nostalgia, partly for the quick follow up shot and of course, who doesn't enjoy the cool factor? But I have never once thought it was to emulate a PH. I have the greatest respect for them and their abilities, but do not lust to be them.

I prefer a red dot on my double because as I will turn 65 later this summer, my eyesight isn't what is was when I was 30 (although it wasn't that great then, as I am somewhat nearsighted and have an astigmatism). The red dot helps me shoot more accurately at game and (hopefully) make better shots and cleaner, more humane kills.

I truly wish I had found Africa 30 years ago. Would have loved to roam the veld with an open sighted double. Alas, that's not how my life worked out. So I will make the best of what's available to me to enjoy legal, ethical hunting on the dark continent. I am headed back to Zim in November to chase croc, hippo, buffalo, tuskless and hopefully some plains game. I will be taking my trusty 470 double with RMR optic to handle the heavy work. Life is a blessing and we all should make the most of it.

Hope you all have a great day
Jody

 

[mdwest]

Haven’t seen any PH’s using red dots…. I thought the point of using a double was to be like the pro’s.
If you need or use use optics , get a bolt rifle…
If you like open sights , like on a shotgun, use a double.
If you like red dots , use an AR15.
I guess I am too set in my ways…

Lots of very public figure type PH's are using red dots on their doubles these days..

Plenty of pics of Ivan Carter using red dots on his double out there..

Tony Sanchez-Arino has spoken to having put an aimpoint on his 450 double because his eyes have worsened with age..

Joey Obannon has a red dot on his 500 NE..

Mark Sullivan uses an RMR on his 577 NE..


at least one of the PH's at Bos en Dal has an RMR on his 500 NE.. the rest are using bolt actions to my knowledge.. but one of them has an RMR on his 375 H&H bolt gun..

they are far more common than you might think.