Rechambering of Rifle Actions?

[CoElkHunter]

With a lot of wildcats or even the AI versions all the reloader will do is to size the neck, where a standard die set for the parent cartridge will work.

After doing a quick search I found the Redding will build you a custom set of dies, all you need to do is to send them 3 fired cases for them to get the measurements off of.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/38-custom-made-dies

Jim P,
This is a great website for many, many wildcat cartridges listed. I then picked some out and Wikipedia them for descriptions. I’ve been very interested lately in the .416 Taylor and now .375 Taylor (.375-.338WM). Both can be made from .338WM or .458WM brass, which I have lots of both. Same case lengths, widths, .532 rim diameter and cartridge oal. Nothing definite, just intriguing? Again, dies and rechambering a rifle would be the only question as to availability and cost? Yeah, I know, what’s the point?! There really isn’t any, kind of same as AI (almost?). $$$$ leaving my wallet! But I’d probably spend it on something just as unnecessary if given the chance! Ha! Ha! Ha!
CEH

 

[AZDAVE]

I see several issues here on terminology. Rechamber vs rebarrel vs relining, vs Boaring out existing rifle barrel to a larger caliber.

All of these require a gunsmith along with lathe and correct tools to do correctly and safely

PO Ackley AI versions of rounds increase the shoulder angle an blow the case to one with less taper increasing the powder capacity a little bit and a slight bump up in performance. What I like about AI rounds is that the increased shoulder angle reduces the stretch of the case and required case trimming. You will hear you just need to run the AI reamer into the chamber and you are done (This only works on belted cases) The correct and safest way is for the gunsmith to remove the barrel and remove the first thread, refit the barrel to the action, and ream the chamber to the AI one. Correctly using go/nogo gauges to set head space.

Rebarrel is when the gunsmith removes the old barrel and fits, chambers, sets headspace on a new barrel. then works the feeding to insure a safe and reliable rifle.

Rebore is when the gunsmith takes the barrel off, drills the barrel to the new calibre, rifles the bore to the correct specifications and reams the chambers, sets headspace to the new round.

Relining (A lost art practice by a few) is when the barrel is drilled to the outside diameter of the barrel liner, the liner is than installed, then reams the chambers, sets headspace to the new round.

There are several good videos on youtube that show gunsmiths doing the above work so that you can get a visual of the amount of work required to do the job correctly and safely. I strongly recommend finding a good gunsmith that does this kind of work and remember the high quality smiths always have a backlog of work, so be patient and always remember if the price sound to good to be true it is time to walk away and find a different smith.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I see several issues here on terminology. Rechamber vs rebarrel vs relining, vs Boaring out existing rifle barrel to a larger caliber.

All of these require a gunsmith along with lathe and correct tools to do correctly and safely

PO Ackley AI versions of rounds increase the shoulder angle an blow the case to one with less taper increasing the powder capacity a little bit and a slight bump up in performance. What I like about AI rounds is that the increased shoulder angle reduces the stretch of the case and required case trimming. You will hear you just need to run the AI reamer into the chamber and you are done (This only works on belted cases) The correct and safest way is for the gunsmith to remove the barrel and remove the first thread, refit the barrel to the action, and ream the chamber to the AI one. Correctly using go/nogo gauges to set head space.

Rebarrel is when the gunsmith removes the old barrel and fits, chambers, sets headspace on a new barrel. then works the feeding to insure a safe and reliable rifle.

Rebore is when the gunsmith takes the barrel off, drills the barrel to the new calibre, rifles the bore to the correct specifications and reams the chambers, sets headspace to the new round.

Relining (A lost art practice by a few) is when the barrel is drilled to the outside diameter of the barrel liner, the liner is than installed, then reams the chambers, sets headspace to the new round.

There are several good videos on youtube that show gunsmiths doing the above work so that you can get a visual of the amount of work required to do the job correctly and safely. I strongly recommend finding a good gunsmith that does this kind of work and remember the high quality smiths always have a backlog of work, so be patient and always remember if the price sound to good to be true it is time to walk away and find a different smith.

AZDAVE,
Would you happen to know AVERAGE costs involved with each of these processes with an average barrel cost included? If I’m going with a wildcat cartridge, I would probably want to go with the least expensive way so as to recoup some of the expense if/when selling the rifle in the future. Again, thinking .375-.338?
Thanks!
CEH

 

[Hogpatrol]

AZDAVE,
Would you happen to know AVERAGE costs involved with each of these processes with an average barrel cost included? If I’m going with a wildcat cartridge, I would probably want to go with the least expensive way so as to recoup some of the expense if/when selling the rifle in the future. Again, thinking .375-.338?
Thanks!
CEH

To the knowledgeable buyer, the resale value on a wildcat is whatever the used action is worth, maybe fifty percent of the stock worth and the barrel is a throwaway.

 

[CoElkHunter]

To the knowledgeable buyer, the resale value on a wildcat is whatever the used action is worth, maybe fifty percent of the stock worth and the barrel is a throwaway.

Good points!

 

[CBH Australia]

AZDAVE are you saying that’s a barrel gets chambered in the action? Not arguing I thought it would be out of the action and the smith would make allowance to ensure its cut he corrected depth. Once chambered it can be screwed in and the gauges used.
CEH review my previous response around costs.
Remember I’m in Australia but a new barrel blank may be from $500.
Rough estimate my gunsmith Willa supply and fit a quality barrel for $900.
If you want a custom job or wild cat your smith may buy or rent a reamer to suit that chambering.

Quality Barrel blank $700 new reamer $300 imported from America , gunsmith $300 chamber and finish without sights,
That may be worst case and maybe $800 US rough estimate, if you are only going to build it once have what you want but I hope that helps. I do believe that gunsmith can buy, rent or borrow reamers. You may know one with the correct reamer but with so many options they won’t have them all.

 

[Areaonereal]

Quality barrel blank in the USA,,,,Shilen 220.00. With Discount, ....Brux 300.00, Rock Creek. 300.00,...Krieger. 325.00,,,,,Lilja 340.00...,chamber job. 200.00 plus.....reamer rental if needed...40.00 if the Smith does not have specific reamer. Normally all in 500 to 600. Truing the action is extra 150 to 200 range. Barrel is not chambered while screwed to the action. Always chambered off the action, so threads are cut, chamber reamed and barrel crowned. We are fortunate to have so many quality barrel makers that you have your choice of numerous reputable barrels whether for hunting or target quality, both button and cut rifle, stainless or chrome moly. Always new barrel companies popping up producing some very good products.

 

[CoElkHunter]

AZDAVE are you saying that’s a barrel gets chambered in the action? Not arguing I thought it would be out of the action and the smith would make allowance to ensure its cut he corrected depth. Once chambered it can be screwed in and the gauges used.
CEH review my previous response around costs.
Remember I’m in Australia but a new barrel blank may be from $500.
Rough estimate my gunsmith Willa supply and fit a quality barrel for $900.
If you want a custom job or wild cat your smith may buy or rent a reamer to suit that chambering.

Quality Barrel blank $700 new reamer $300 imported from America , gunsmith $300 chamber and finish without sights,
That may be worst case and maybe $800 US rough estimate, if you are only going to build it once have what you want but I hope that helps. I do believe that gunsmith can buy, rent or borrow reamers. You may know one with the correct reamer but with so many options they won’t have them all.

Thanks!

 

[CoElkHunter]

Quality barrel blank in the USA,,,,Shilen 220.00. With Discount, ....Brux 300.00, Rock Creek. 300.00,...Krieger. 325.00,,,,,Lilja 340.00...,chamber job. 200.00 plus.....reamer rental if needed...40.00 if the Smith does not have specific reamer. Normally all in 500 to 600. Truing the action is extra 150 to 200 range. Barrel is not chambered while screwed to the action. Always chambered off the action, so threads are cut, chamber reamed and barrel crowned. We are fortunate to have so many quality barrel makers that you have your choice of numerous reputable barrels whether for hunting or target quality, both button and cut rifle, stainless or chrome moly. Always new barrel companies popping up producing some very good products.

Thanks! Or maybe in the case of the .375-.338 Win Mag, get a used .375 barrel and have a gunsmith attach it to the rifle? Or, just rebore a .338 WM barrel to .375 which is already on a factory .338 rifle? I would think both of those options would be less expensive?

 

[CBH Australia]

Watching with interest. My guess is not every gunsmith will rebore your barrel. I take it that needs special tooling and equipment and the barrel needs to have enough stock to carry that bore size.
Those dollars quoted being US may compare with my figures.
If the dollars are adding up on a custom wildcat $200 for a barrel doesn’t seem to bad. If a secondhand .375 barrel is $100 and no one wants to touch it at least you have history on new barrel.
My smith fitted a secondhand .22-250 barrel for me. He said it was OK and so was the price. He supplied it but the total was still cheap and it shoots well .
If you can pull it off for $500 bargain, $600 that sounds like the going rate. Decide what you are willing to spend and see if it works out. If you have everything but the barrel then it’s probably ok . In Australia I would have to pay transfer fees to have a new rifle registered so if I find something online I have transfer out $50postage $50, receive and transfer $50 so $150 in fees for a secondhand or new rifle . Maybe less or maybe more.
And if I need to post it to a smith I may have similar fees as it has to be sent dealer to dealer for paper trail.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I’m getting in beyond my depth here but there may be various ways.
Simply draw a design (Concept) and ask to have a reamer made by the people who make them. Manson is a name that’s comes to mind.
Perhaps in some cases you could select a barrel with a given bore and use a reamer of a parent case so as you are starting with a case that’s is available and has potential to create your new design.
Like my example above a gun nut who had access to a small CBC lathe and someone to demonstrate he made a bush to shorten the chamber of a .270winchester chambered barrel and fireformed .243 loads in it. You would need to know your powders and do your homework.
With my limited knowledge I would not attempt that. I would not even suggest someone tries it. Bushing the chamber is not a practice anyone would advocate.
But with that example I think maybe you could get a .270 bore barrel blank and use a reamer with a smaller neck dia perhaps? Providing that you could keep it centred. So like a .243, 6.5 cm or .260 Rem reamer into the .270 bore barrel may make that wildcat.
Forget it buy a 7mm-08 that’s what I did.
There was an article in sporting shooter of an Aussie who made a .358 on a short action. Alan Swan done the work. He ordered a reamer to his design, asked Bertram cases to custom make brass with his designated chambering be it a .358 with his last name as the designation and head stamp.
The cases were a standard head size of formed from a generic blank case they make something else of.
I believe readers are ground and need to be sharp, also these can be resharpened . I guess in the hands of a smart machinist they can be ground to change the shoulder angle.
Nathan Foster runs the terminal ballistics research website. Look up his 7mm practical page
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/7mm+Practical.html

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Blog/x_post/the-third-7mm-practical.html

I haven’t read this in a while but I think it talks about the process.

Another note a gunsmith in my home town when I was a kid was Arthur Langford of Broken Hill he owned Myra’s sports store.
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2011/01/squeeze-bore.html
Google some references
I know he designed a .17mini mite and a Tini mite by downsizing the necks of .22rf and .22mag. Making his own dies etc. they were the fasted rimfires recorded at the time and a pre cursor to the .17Mach1 and .17HMR
He also done some centrefire wildcats. All this before the internet and these modern wildcats . Evidently There was a .300 Myra using a .222 case. Sound familiar?
He had a nice ammunition factory and a small outlet that he sold in the early 90s

Both the .243 and .358 Win are from the .308 Win case. .243 necked down and .358 necked up, I believe? Anyway, you could neck down the .308 to .270 and like you described, have a neat , short .270? What’s kind of fascinating to me, is the fact that these necked up or down shorter “wildcats” have only some velocity loss when compared to some other longer standard factory produced cartridges with the same widths, in the same caliber with the same barrel length? And if you go with say, a 24” vs. 22” barrel, the velocity is really close?

 

[AZDAVE]

You are correct on the barrel is chambered while on the lathe with the exacting measurments the smith takes to determine settings for the machine work.

The costs will vary a good bit depending on the work you have done, IE trueing the action to a complete blueprint of the action. You are into custom rifle costs when you have that kind of work done.

For a rebarrel you have the cost of the barrel with a $100 Green mountain barrel to $1000+ for the carbon wrapped super wiz bang high tech barrels. Here in USA you can get a decent barrel for 250-450. The average costs to thread, chamber and fit the barrel I have seen is 300-350. so for around $700 is a good estimate

Reboring and chambering of the barrel you currently have on your rifle is 350-500 as a rough estimate

I have never used reline-ing service so have no idea of those costs.

With Wildcats as a few have pointed out in the resale market you will almost never get back the costs you sunk into building the rifle. If I ever planned on selling any of my wildcat rifles I would just expect to get around what the stock and action are worth

 

[CoElkHunter]

You are correct on the barrel is chambered while on the lathe with the exacting measurments the smith takes to determine settings for the machine work.

The costs will vary a good bit depending on the work you have done, IE trueing the action to a complete blueprint of the action. You are into custom rifle costs when you have that kind of work done.

For a rebarrel you have the cost of the barrel with a $100 Green mountain barrel to $1000+ for the carbon wrapped super wiz bang high tech barrels. Here in USA you can get a decent barrel for 250-450. The average costs to thread, chamber and fit the barrel I have seen is 300-350. so for around $700 is a good estimate

Reboring and chambering of the barrel you currently have on your rifle is 350-500 as a rough estimate

I have never used reline-ing service so have no idea of those costs.

With Wildcats as a few have pointed out in the resale market you will almost never get back the costs you sunk into building the rifle. If I ever planned on selling any of my wildcat rifles I would just expect to get around what the stock and action are worth

I guess it would really depend on the wildcat cartridge one built their rifle around, as far as recouping their costs go? Some wildcats are more exotic than others when they’re not using readily available factory cases such as .308, .30-06, .300 WM, .338WM, .458 WM, etc. Some factory produced brass, such as the Remington Ultra Mag family and Winchester or Remington Super Short this or that is much more difficult to find and costly than formed brass from a traditional cartridge to create a wildcat. Try to find reasonably priced brass on Gun Broker for any of these cartridges. Good luck! How long will most of these super short, fat cased cartridges be around after the various Gun Magazines’ writers print fades? I suspect not long. We’ve been there before with the Remington 6.5mm and .350 RM cartridges, which are actually every bit as good as the media hyped new stuff. They were just marketed poorly and chambered initially in the wrong rifles, but the damage was done. But, as you said, one won’t recoup the costs of most wildcat chambered rifles compared to factory cartridge chambered rifles! But, then again, it wouldn’t be as much fun either!

 

[AZDAVE]

@CoElkHunter yes wildcats are fun and sometimes a challenge to get formed and loaded. I use to have a number of wildcats but just down to a few that I really like for example my 416 Express (350 RM necked up to 416), and some of the old rounds like a 40/60 Maynard or 40/50 straight Sharps have to be formed from 30/40 Krag or 7.62x54.
The 338 Edge I had years ago is an example of when I sold it I didn't get close to what I had in it. So I don't build any wildcats except for the ones I plan on keeping for a long time. It is good to see people experimenting with all combo's of wildcats just to see what it will do

 

[CoElkHunter]

@CoElkHunter yes wildcats are fun and sometimes a challenge to get formed and loaded. I use to have a number of wildcats but just down to a few that I really like for example my 416 Express (350 RM necked up to 416), and some of the old rounds like a 40/60 Maynard or 40/50 straight Sharps have to be formed from 30/40 Krag or 7.62x54.
The 338 Edge I had years ago is an example of when I sold it I didn't get close to what I had in it. So I don't build any wildcats except for the ones I plan on keeping for a long time. It is good to see people experimenting with all combo's of wildcats just to see what it will do

That .416 Express you have mentioned is very intriguing to me! On another thread I mentioned a .458 Lott necked down to .416 using .416 Taylor dies, to create a .416 Taylor Plus or Express or whatever. But as many people here said, “What’s the point, as we have the .416 Remington?”. Very true, but if one has a bunch of Lott cases, why not? What die set was used to neck up the .350RM to .416? .416 Ruger? Thanks!

 

[AZDAVE]

@CoElkHunter I ordered the correct dies for the round from CH4D 350/416 is how they are listed. I got the idea from "Ken Waters Pet Loads" He wanted to build a rifle that would meet or exceed a 405 win in a short action bolt gun. Mine shoots 300gr at 2490fpsand the 350s at 2225fps for the best accuracy. If you ever want to build one I have a reamer for it. Fun round

 

[bruce moulds]

getting poor prices for wildcat rifles translates into failure to convince the customer he needs it a lot.
do that and you can charge extra.
bruce.

 

[Nevada Mike]

There are some costs associated with converting a rifle to a different cartridge...

1.) cost of a new barrel
2.) installation of barrel, chambering, polishing, blueing, new sights, possibly new sling swivel fitted to the barrel.
3.) action and follower work to be sure that it feeds cartridges from the magazine. Plus possible modification of the magazine box. Possible opening of the bolt face.
4.) probable modifications to the stock to assure proper fitting to the stock’s barrel channel. Possible modification of the stock to fit new or modified magazine box.
5.) assembly and test firing.

I got a quote from a competent ‘Smith to do the work on one of my rifles ... about $1200 to $1500, all in. I did this years ago to convert one of my rifles from 7X61 to 7mm Rem. Mag. I forget what it cost then, but today’s price would be much more.

 

[nztimb]

There are some costs associated with converting a rifle to a different cartridge...

1.) cost of a new barrel
2.) installation of barrel, chambering, polishing, blueing, new sights, possibly new sling swivel fitted to the barrel.
3.) action and follower work to be sure that it feeds cartridges from the magazine. Plus possible modification of the magazine box. Possible opening of the bolt face.
4.) probable modifications to the stock to assure proper fitting to the stock’s barrel channel. Possible modification of the stock to fit new or modified magazine box.
5.) assembly and test firing.

I got a quote from a competent ‘Smith to do the work on one of my rifles ... about $1200 to $1500, all in. I did this years ago to convert one of my rifles from 7X61 to 7mm Rem. Mag. I forget what it cost then, but today’s price would be much more.

Would the 7x61 to 7mm RM just be a rechamber or at most a thread off the barrel and rechamber unless your 7x61 barrel was shot out that is (or not a good shooter)

 

[Nevada Mike]

Von Gruff - - The 7X61 had a 1-12" twist. Too slow for a 7mm RM... I had it rebarreled with a Hobaugh barrel with 1-9-1/2" twist. Needed magazine slightly lengthened, so that was done, stock needed some fitting with the longer magazine. Had the feeding made better. I still have the rifle and it has taken deer and elk.