Post 2: Mystery .416

[deewayne2003]

Great idea. I have just communicated that to the gunsmith.

Well at least the mystery is solved and with you not reloading .416Rem is your best bet.

Would like to see a range report.

 

[KPinOKC]

Well at least the mystery is solved and with you not reloading .416Rem is your best bet.

Would like to see a range report.

Sure.

 

[BlueFlyer]

Any photos of the rifle?

 

[KPinOKC]

Any photos of the rifle?

No but I’ll take some when I pick it up next week.

 

[One Day...]

So…..

My gunsmith just contacted me and said the gun is in fact a .416 Rem Mag, and not a Taylor. Mixed emotions. I really like what I read about the .416 Taylor but since I’m not a reloader, the Rem Mag will be a better fit for me.

Do not worry about it, there is nothing any of the .416s does (except the Wby) that the other .416s don't. The .416 Rem will serve you well and indeed simplify the ammo sourcing

 

[KPinOKC]

Do not worry about it, there is nothing any of the .416s does (except the Wby) that the other .416s don't. The .416 Rem will serve you well and indeed simplify the ammo sourcing

I’m actually now a little nervous and a little pissed, pardon my French. I’m exchanging emails with the smith and I asked very pointedly, if he was 100% sure it was Remington because 1) the Remington requires a magnum action and the VZ24 has a standard, 30.06 action requiring significant reworking to accept the REM Mag cartridges and 2) everyone who knew the original owner, including one of the original four that had sourced their rifles together and had the same smith (not the one I’m using) rebarrel to 416, claim they are Taylor. My smith said he would double check to be double sure it is in fact Remington and not Taylor. I’m lacking confidence he actually did a cast. So the mystery continues, at least for me.

 

[One Day...]

I’m actually now a little nervous and a little pissed, pardon my French. I’m exchanging emails with the smith and I asked very pointedly, if he was 100% sure it was Remington because 1) the Remington requires a magnum action and the VZ24 has a standard, 30.06 action requiring significant reworking to accept the REM Mag cartridges and 2) everyone who knew the original owner, including one of the original four that had sourced their rifles together and had the same smith (not the one I’m using) rebarrel to 416, claim they are Taylor. My smith said he would double check to be double sure it is in fact Remington and not Taylor. I’m lacking confidence he actually did a cast. So the mystery continues, at least for me.

Hmmm... I cannot say anything re. you point 2) but contacting the original gunsmith (if he is still around) could be interesting. He would likely have a record of the caliber for the serial number.

Regarding your point 1), indeed standard length Mauser actions can be easily adapted to .375 H&H-length cartridges, which the .416 Rem is. Actually, they can even been made (more difficultly) to accept the .416 Rigby, which is significantly longer than the Rem. Maybe the most famous .416 Rigby of them all, Robert Ruark PH, Harry Selby's .416 Rigby was built (by Rigby) on a standard K98 action.

Both conversions (to Rem and to Rigby) require changing the magazine for a longer one (easy); lengthening the magazine well (easy); shortening and reshaping the feeding ramp (to a frightfully short one in the case of the Rigby, with very limited metal left to contain the bottom bolt head tenon); and reshaping the feeding rails (tricky).

The simple and obvious check is that a Taylor will NOT chamber a Rem, so that one is easy to check:
-- the Taylor's case is 2.5" with a shoulder at 2.125" and a diameter at shoulder of .490"
-- the Rem's case is 2.850" with a shoulder at 2.389" and a diameter at shoulder of .4868"


In any case, whether the rifle is a .416 Taylor or a .416 Rem, this means that someone "played" with the original 8x57 Mauser feeding geometry of the VZ-24.

My recommendation is that you buy a few boxes of the ammo with different bullet profiles and cycle rounds from a full magazine the fastest you can, then the slowest you can to check feeding. Feeding from a single round in the magazine does no imply that the rifle will feed from a full magazine. Feeding a TSX does not imply the rifle will feed AFrame. Feeding slow does not imply the rifle will feed fact. Etc. etc. Trust me, this one is important...

 

[KPinOKC]

Hmmm... I cannot say anything re. you point 2) but contacting the original gunsmith (if he is still around) could be interesting. He would likely have a record of the caliber for the serial number.

Regarding your point 1), indeed standard length Mauser actions can be easily adapted to .375 H&H-length cartridges, which the .416 Rem is. Actually, they can even been made (more difficultly) to accept the .416 Rigby, which is significantly longer than the Rem. Maybe the most famous .416 Rigby of them all, Robert Ruark PH, Harry Selby's .416 Rigby was built (by Rigby) on a standard K98 action.

Both conversions (to Rem and to Rigby) require changing the magazine for a longer one (easy); lengthening the magazine well (easy); shortening and reshaping the feeding ramp (to a frightfully short one in the case of the Rigby, with very limited metal left to contain the bottom bolt head tenon); and reshaping the feeding rails (tricky).

The simple and obvious check is that a Taylor will NOT chamber a Rem, so that one is easy to check:
-- the Taylor's case is 2.5" with a shoulder at 2.125" and a diameter at shoulder of .490"
-- the Rem's case is 2.850" with a shoulder at 2.389" and a diameter at shoulder of .4868"


In any case, whether the rifle is a .416 Taylor or a .416 Rem, this means that someone "played" with the original 8x57 Mauser feeding geometry of the VZ-24.

My recommendation is that you buy a few boxes of the ammo with different bullet profiles and cycle rounds from a full magazine the fastest you can, then the slowest you can to check feeding. Feeding from a single round in the magazine does no imply that the rifle will feed from a full magazine. Feeding a TSX does not imply the rifle will feed AFrame. Feeding slow does not imply the rifle will feed fact. Etc. etc. Trust me, this one is important...

Thank you for such detailed feedback. One question: since the Taylor’s shoulder diameter is .032” wider than the Remington, will a Taylor cartridge feed into a Remington?

 

[Nhoro]

One Day you left out the most difficult to feed bullet shape, the flat nosed solid. Especially the shorter lead core solids like Hornady DGS. I reckon if your gun feeds those, it will feed anything. But as you say, test, test and test again.

 

[One Day...]

One Day you left out the most difficult to feed bullet shape, the flat nosed solid. Especially the shorter lead core solids like Hornady DGS. I reckon if your gun feeds those, it will feed anything. But as you say, test, test and test again.

Did not leave it out, to me it goes under the "etc. etc." after pointing out "different bullet profiles"

We could go on almost forever when it comes to bullet-caused potential feeding issues e.g. longer cartridge length with long-for-weight bullets; conical bullets; truncated nose quasi wadcutter bullets; etc. etc.

Bottom line THERE WILL BE gremlins, and we all agree: best flush them out and sort them out at home rather than in camp

 

[One Day...]

Thank you for such detailed feedback. One question: since the Taylor’s shoulder diameter is .032” wider than the Remington, will a Taylor cartridge feed into a Remington?

The Taylor's shoulder is wider but the cartridge is shorter, so the wider Taylor shoulder may (?) just slide by where the Rem chamber is still tapering. I would not think so, but I just do not know for sure.
But I would say that from a chamber test perspective it does not really matter. Test with a Rem case. If it chambers you KNOW that it is not a Taylor

 

[KPinOKC]

I had a conversation with the gun smith and they did what I originally asked, made a lead cast. It is in fact a Taylor.

 

[One Day...]

I had a conversation with the gun smith and they did what I originally asked, made a lead cast. It is in fact a Taylor.

Great!

Three thoughts:

1 -- I would suggest that you have him stamp a "T" or "Taylor" on the barrel after .416

2 -- Regarding future business, I personally would have deep second thoughts about the fact that he first said REM which was clearly an uneducated, and wrong, answer provided without doing what you asked: a chamber cast. The fact that you had to challenge this answer for him to do the job correctly classifies him as "unprofessional/unreliable/potentially dangerous" to me...
Yet another example why I trust less and less people in general and gun shops or similar (e.g. car service shops) in particular. You would think that St Thomas was right in his thinking after all

3 -- First thing first, I would suggest that you order 200 Norma brass from Raven Rock just to make sure that you will not miss that critical component in the future, whether you reload or not, and store them. They will NOT be in stock at Raven Rock (or others) forever as they are only produced in rare occasional and long-in-between batches. You will get more when you order ammo from Lance, specified with the same brass, but there too, check with him that he has them in stock, and order another 200 for him to use if he does not have any on hand.

 

[KPinOKC]

Great!

Three thoughts:

1 -- Have him stamp a "T" or "Taylor" on the barrel after .416

2 -- Regarding future business, I personally would have deep second thoughts about the fact that he first said REM which was clearly an uneducated answer provided without doing what you asked: a chamber cast. The fact that you had to challenge this answer for him to do the job correctly classifies him as "unprofessional/unreliable" for me...
Yet another example why I trust less and less people in general and gun shops or similar (e.g. car service shops) in particular. You would think that St Thomas was right in his thinking after all

3 -- First thing first, order 200 Norma brass from Raven Rock just to make sure that you will not miss that critical component in the future, whether you reload or not, and store them. They will not be in stock forever as they are only produced in rare occasional and long-in-between batches. You will get more when you order ammo from Lance, specified with the same brass.

I agree with you 100%. Good point about the brass. Going to see my cousin this weekend who has been hand loading for decades. Even though I don’t reload now, it would be a good option if Hendershot stops producing Taylor ammo.

 

[BJH65]

Great!

Three thoughts:

1 -- Have him stamp a "T" or "Taylor" on the barrel after .416

2 -- Regarding future business, I personally would have deep second thoughts about the fact that he first said REM which was clearly an uneducated answer provided without doing what you asked: a chamber cast. The fact that you had to challenge this answer for him to do the job correctly classifies him as "unprofessional/unreliable" for me...
Yet another example why I trust less and less people in general and gun shops or similar (e.g. car service shops) in particular. You would think that St Thomas was right in his thinking after all

Agreed. I’m not aware of any gunsmith in the OKC region where I would take my rifles. J.J. Perodeau, who is semiretired, only works on doubles and unfortunately no longer works on bolt actions, recommended a gunsmith in Tulsa that he personally checked out for bolt action work. Formerly McKool Gunsmithing now 918 Guns, 6390 E 31st St, Suite B, Tulsa OK 74135. 918-663-3880.

 

[KPinOKC]

Agreed. I’m not aware of any gunsmith in the OKC region where I would take my rifles. J.J. Perodeau, who is semiretired, only works on doubles and unfortunately no longer works on bolt actions, recommended a gunsmith in Tulsa that he personally checked out for bolt action work. Formerly McKool Gunsmithing now 918 Guns, 6390 E 31st St, Suite B, Tulsa OK 74135. 918-663-3880.

I’m in Dallas and Houston with some regularity. Any recommendations for a good gunsmith in those areas?

 

[BJH65]

Tipton Burns, Canyon Lake, Texas 210-508-7961 comes highly recommended from fellow AH members.