Post 2: Mystery .416

[KPinOKC]

I mentioned in my First Post that I had a story about acquiring my 416 Taylor. It’s not much of story l, but I’ll share it with you as it’s part of a dilemma I now have. Keep it and modify it for my needs or sell it and start over. Forgive me for the long post. I’ll try to be brief.

After lurking on AfricaHunting.com for a several weeks and getting the bug to restart my hunting pastime with an ultimate goal of a trip to Africa, I mentioned to my cousin that I wanted either a .375 or a .416. He contacted me a week or so later and told me of the widow of a good friend of his who was trying to sell her late husband’s guns and reloading equipment. It included a 416 Rigby. He mentioned BRNO but I mistakenly conflated that with CZ, and I had been looking for a CZ .375 or .416. I sped over there with cash in hand but found out after arriving it was a VZ-24, YZ series. It had been ‘sporterized’ with a newer stock and barrel. It was stamped 416, but that was it, and she wasn’t sure about the exact caliber except she thought it was a Rigby. She knew that it was her husband’s Africa rifle, and there were trophy mounts of Eland, Gemsbok, Kudu etc. to prove it. She said he made two trips over 4 years and never used the rifle again.

I knew it probably wasn’t a Rigby because the VZ-24 had a standard length action, but I made a second mistake of thinking it was a .416 Rem Mag, which would have been preferable to me over the Rigby anyway. She had no cartridges or anything that would help me, and she really looked like she needed to sell the gun, so I took it.

A few days later my cousin called with a new story. The gentleman and three friends had been told about four BRNO VZ-24s that were available. They bought them and had a local (Ft. Worth) gunsmith re-barrel all four to .416 TAYLOR!!! I don’t reload, hence my current quandary. The rifle is currently at a gunsmith who is making a lead cast of the action and will determine with 100% certainty what caliber it is. If the rifle is a Rem Mag, which I doubt, I’ll keep it. But if it’s Taylor, I’m not sure if I should sell it and start over or just go with it. Hendershot makes some good ammo and I could buy enough now to last me until I don’t hunt anymore.

I’m going to start a 3rd post to discuss what I’m planning on doing to this .416, or whatever DG rifle I end up with.

 

[86thecat]

Have you considered rechambering to 416 Ruger if it's a Taylor?

 

[ve7poi]

Should be easy to rechamber to 416 rem mag longer on 2.8” case
Tylor based on 2.5” 458 necked down

 

[KPinOKC]

Should be easy to rechamber to 416 rem mag longer on 2.8” case
Tylor based on 2.5” 458 necked dow

Have you considered rechambering to 416 Ruger if it's a Taylor?

416 Ruger ammo seems to be as rare as Taylor. Taylor essentially thé same ballistics with less recoil.

416 REM Mag would require some gunsmithing. I’ll need to get some quotes before I can answer that.

I’m going to contact some brokers to see what I could sell it for, then explore rechambering per above.

So my choses are 1) sell, 2) rechamber, or 3) buy a large supply of Hendershot ammo and keep it.

 

[BJH65]

If you can obtain ammunition from Hendershot’s I would keep the 416 Taylor if that’s what it’s determined to be and you like the rifle. I think the 416 Taylor is a wonderful round, similar in power to the 416 Rigby but housed in a standard mauser action with not much more recoil than a 375 H&H. Over the years, I’ve seen some nice custom rifles in this chambering. If you desire a different cartridge, sell it and buy another rifle.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Well.....that's a dilemma.....

Questions: (rethorically speaking)

1. What .416 caliber are you wanting?
2. How money do you have invested in this rifle?
3. Would you not be better off selling this rifle and purchasing the .416 caliber you are wanting?
4. Do you really want to spend the money to rechamber the rifle to your desired .416 caliber?
5. IF the rifle fits you and you like it; Why not keep it as is?

6. Why not wait for the gunsmith's results then decide on what you want to do before deciding?

Big bores pretty much require a big bore shooter to get into reloading...it's simple economics. The question is:

Are you wanting and willing to go down the reloading "rabbit hole"?

Personal Note:

As one of the all AH forum enablers.... and realizing you would become another competitor for reloading components......I hate competition/competitors for reloading components that are already in short supply....but I must do my due diligence....as an enabler.........you should become a dedicated reloader for no other reason but to develop the most accurate ammunition for your firearms.

IF you like the rifle; IF the rifle fits you; IF you can shoot the rifle with a 5 shot group under an inch;..
...Why not just enjoy and hunt with the rifle as is?

 

[86thecat]

Does Hendershot use properly headstamped brass? I know that can possibly be an issue traveling to some countries to hunt. (edit-Looked at Hendershot website and they do use proper headstamped Norma brass)
My understanding is that 416Ruger Hornady DG ammo has good availability now and even brass is back at most of the larger distributors for the 416 Ruger.
I had a 7mmRM rebarreled to 375Ruger, was interested in 416Ruger but testing feeding with dummy rounds the 375 fed pretty well but 416 seemed like it would take more work to feed properly. So I went with the 375 for a walking around rifle.
The Taylor seems to have a loyal following, but I would personally prefer the Ruger as it is nipping at the heels of the RM velocity wise and the Taylor is a noticeable bit slower.

 

[KPinOKC]

To all the above…

If I knew Hendershot would continue producing Taylor ammo, I would keep it for sure. I got into the gun for a descent price, and I would be losing money to re-caliber or buy another caliber.

I don’t shoot enough to reload; I shoot enough to be sharp with whatever gun I’m planning on using.

My son pointed out the 416 is really for one species, Cape Buffalo. Anything else in Africa or North America would be handled by the 30.06 or 300 Weatherby. But I really wanted a bigger bore rifle so when I get confirmation, I’ll probably be leaning towards keeping it and buying a large supply from Hendershot.

Thanks for all the feedback

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I would keep the Taylor, in reality there is very little it won’t work on effortlessly, and you may reload in the future, or get your son into reloading
Gumpy

 

[Certus]

.416 Taylor - under appreciated little beasty.

 

[KPinOKC]

.416 Taylor - under appreciated little beasty.

I’ve read that some consider it the best all around .400+ caliber, and some think Ruger missed out by developing the 416 Ruger rather than going the way of the Taylor.

 

[One Day...]

A few thoughts, KPinOKC...

The .416 Taylor is an excellent caliber. It delivers close enough performances to .416 Rigby and .416 Rem with the advantage, for some, of doing so in a shorter cartridge with a shorter bolt throw. I always wondered why Winchester did not chamber it. Maybe they thought that it would cannibalize the .458 Win market, which would have been very rational thinking.

The VZ-24 action is an excellent action. Many consider it every bit as good as the original Mauser action.

.416 Taylor head-stamped brass is currently produced by Norma and available in stock at Raven Rock Precision. This is excellent brass. You can buy some and sent them to Hendershot, or you can specify that they procure them.

What to do?

1 -- One can probably shoehorn the .416 Rem in a VZ-24 action but this likely involves precision and expensive gunsmithing such as shortening and modifying the feeding ramp, modifying the feeding rails (always a risky business unless done by a real pro), etc. Each will have their own opinion, but why go through the expense when the Taylor does everything the Rem does...

2 -- the ammo "problem" is simple - Part 1. One can go the route I went to get exactly the load I wanted for the 9.3x62 solid: get into handloading. The Taylor by all accounts is easy to reload for and plenty of loads exist in most reloading manuals.

3 -- the ammo "problem" is simple - Part 2. Order 500 rounds from Hendershot (in several successive batches if budget imposes it), and store them. This will give you a lifelong DG ammo supply. Buy a few more boxes every year for practice with cheap bullets as you go.

Decision factor

To me, the principal decision factor would be cost. If you got a great deal on a .416 Taylor VZ-24, and if the rifle is in good condition (i.e. reliable), you have all you need for anything that walks the earth. With solids it will whiz through an elephant skull and perforate lengthwise a hippo on land.

Alternatively, if the .416 Taylor VZ-24 cost as much as a CZ 550 or a Win 70 .375 H&H or .416 Rem (and presumably can be resold for that much?), it is likely simpler from an ammo perspective to go for a CZ 550 or a Win 70 .375 H&H or .416 Rem.

Recommendation

In both cases, allow me to give the same recommendation I give to all newcomers to the safari dream. Unless you have the financial means to do both, spend your money on going to Africa, not on stacking DG rifles in the safe waiting for a hypothetical safari that you cannot afford because you put your money on rifles.

• Take your existing deer gun on a small PG safari.
• Take your existing elk rifle on a large PG safari.
• And -- this is yet another variable in your equation -- take a .375 H&H on a DG safari. There is a considerable threshold in recoil between .375 and .416, and do not think for a moment that being proficient with a .270 translates automatically in being proficient with a .416.

A well-tuned CZ550 or Win 70 .375 H&H is head and shoulder, and even head and shoulder and waist, a better choice for a first safari, and will likely remain so for many safaris to come, unless you commit to become proficient with a .40+ or .45+ caliber rifle, which in itself is an expensive proposition because you will need to fire hundreds of rounds.

 

[KPinOKC]

A few thoughts, KPinOKC...

The .416 Taylor is an excellent caliber. It delivers close enough performances to .416 Rigby and .416 Rem with the advantage, for some, of doing so in a shorter cartridge with a shorter bolt throw. I always wondered why Winchester did not chamber it. Maybe they thought that it would cannibalize the .458 Win market, which would have been very rational thinking.

The VZ-24 action is an excellent action. Many consider it every bit as good as the original Mauser action.

.416 Taylor head-stamped brass is currently produced by Norma and available in stock at Raven Rock Precision. This is excellent brass. You can buy some and sent them to Hendershot, or you can specify that they procure them.

What to do?

1 -- One can probably shoehorn the .416 Rem in a VZ-24 action but this likely involves precision gunsmithing such as shortening and modifying the feeding ramp etc. Each will have their own opinion, but why go through the expense when the Taylor does everything the Rem does...

2 -- the ammo "problem" is simple - Part 1. One can go the route I went to get exactly the load I wanted for the 9.3x62 solid: get into handloading. The Taylor by all accounts is easy to reload for and plenty of loads exist in most reloading manuals.

3 -- the ammo "problem" is simple - Part 2. Order 500 rounds from Hendershot (in several successive batches if budget imposes it), and store them. This will give you a lifelong DG ammo supply. Buy a few more boxes every year for practice with cheap bullets as you go.

Decision factor

To me, the principal decision factor would be cost. If you got a great deal on a .416 Taylor VZ-24, and if the rifle is in good condition (i.e. reliable), you have all you need for anything that walks the earth.

Alternatively, if the .416 Taylor VZ-24 cost as much as a CZ 550 .375 H&H or a Win 70 .416 Rem (and presumably can be resold for that much ?), it is likely simpler to go for a CZ 550 .375 H&H or Win 70 .416 Rem.

Recommendation

In both cases, allow me to give the same recommendation I give to all newcomers to the safari dream. Unless you have the financial means to do both, spend your money on going to Africa, not on stacking DG rifles in the safe waiting for a hypothetical safari that you cannot afford because you put your money on rifles.

• Take your existing deer gun on a small PG safari.
• Take your existing elk rifle on a large PG safari.
• And -- this is yet another variable in your equation -- take a .375 H&H on a DG safari. There is a considerable threshold in recoil between .375 and .416, and do not think for a moment that being proficient with a .270 translates automatically in being proficient with a .416.

A well-tuned CZ550 .375 H&H or Win 70 .375 H&H is head and shoulder, and even head and shoulder and waist, a better choice for a first safari, and will likely remain so for many safaris to come, unless you commit to become proficient with a .40+ or .45+ caliber rifle, which in itself is an expensive proposition because you will need to fire hundreds of rounds.

Thank you for a very well thought out and detailed response. I agree 100% with everything you’ve written. As I mentioned in my initial post I was in the market for a .375 or .416 when this deal fell in my lap. Since I plan to add a suppressor and possibly a suppressor/brake combo, recoil won’t be an issue.

I do have the financial means to purchase these guns and take trips to Africa, But I didn’t reach this position by wasting money. And, I grew up under marginal financial conditions and my father never let me forget he picked cotton in the Texas heat for 10 cents a day when he was a young boy/man during the depression. So I don’t like to waste money.

Buying several boxes of various cartridges from Hendershot is also very doable, and is something I am considering.

Also, my first trip to Africa will be with my son. We’ll carry a 30.06 and 300 Weatherby. If we decide to go after buffalo on a subsequent trip we’ll carry the .416.

Thanks again, your input is greatly appreciated.

 

[One Day...]

If you shoot the .300 Wby well, you are already a good deal of the way there to control recoil from a .416 Taylor

Another way to look at this too is that Lance can cook up for you some 300 gr TSX PG loads for the .416 Taylor, and if your outfitter makes you an offer you cannot refuse on a management buffalo, they will still do the trick

Of course, for a dedicated dagga boy hunt, 400 gr will obviously be better.

Ideally the VZ-24 action would be drilled & tapped for a (preferably but not necessarily detachable) 1-6x24 scope and it would be just a matter of a few vertical clicks to move it from a 400 gr load to a 300 gr load.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

This is an interesting discussion. I've never shot a .300 Wby but I own and shoot .416 Taylor, Remington, and Rigby. The Taylor has the most managable recoil of this family. Here are the numbers to compare.

I used A-Square data for the .300 Weatherby. Other loads used more powder which will increase recoil slightly. I have no idea the type or weight of powder charges used in factory ammunition.

When I started shooting dangerous game rifles, I cut my teeth on a .375 H&H. At first it seemed to have high recoil. Then I stepped up to .416's and .458's and a .450 Rigby. Now, a .375 H&H seems like a pussy cat! Practice goes a long way. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[KPinOKC]

This is an interesting discussion. I've never shot a .300 Wby but I own and shoot .416 Taylor, Remington, and Rigby. The Taylor has the most managable recoil of this family. Here are the numbers to compare.

I used A-Square data for the .300 Weatherby. Other loads used more powder which will increase recoil slightly. I have no idea the type or weight of powder charges used in factory ammunition.

When I started shooting dangerous game rifles, I cut my teeth on a .375 H&H. At first it seemed to have high recoil. Then I stepped up to .416's and .458's and a .450 Rigby. Now, a .375 H&H seems like a pussy cat! Practice goes a long way. It's all a matter of perspective.

View attachment 744458

Interesting. Thank you for the data. I’ve read and been told the Taylor was the more manageable of the 416s but I’m surprised by the difference between the Taylor and the 375 H&H. I’ve read several places where owners of both stated the Taylor and the 375 had similar felt recoil.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Interesting. Thank you for the data. I’ve read and been told the Taylor was the more manageable of the 416s but I’m surprised by the difference between the Taylor and the 375 H&H. I’ve read several places where owners of both stated the Taylor and the 375 had similar felt recoil.

Felt or perceived recoil is what the shooter thinks it is.

My .416 Taylor's felt recoil to me is closer to a similar weight .375 H&H than my .416 Remington. The .416 Taylor really is a high energy sweetheart of a cartridge! Now, don't ask me why I have a couple of .416 Remington’s and a .416 Rigby. My answer would be something like, "Because I can..."

 

[KPinOKC]

This is an interesting discussion. I've never shot a .300 Wby but I own and shoot .416 Taylor, Remington, and Rigby. The Taylor has the most managable recoil of this family. Here are the numbers to compare.

I used A-Square data for the .300 Weatherby. Other loads used more powder which will increase recoil slightly. I have no idea the type or weight of powder charges used in factory ammunition.

When I started shooting dangerous game rifles, I cut my teeth on a .375 H&H. At first it seemed to have high recoil. Then I stepped up to .416's and .458's and a .450 Rigby. Now, a .375 H&H seems like a pussy cat! Practice goes a long way. It's all a matter of perspective.

View attachment 744458

Interesting. Thank you for the data. I’ve read and been told the Taylor was the more manageable of the 416s but I’m surprised by the difference between the Taylor and the 375 H&H. I’ve read several places where owners of both stated the Taylor and the 375 had similar felt recoil.

If you shoot the .300 Wby well, you are already a good deal of the way there to control recoil from a .416 Taylor

Another way to look at this too is that Lance can cook up for you some 300 gr TSX PG loads for the .416 Taylor, and if your outfitter makes you an offer you cannot refuse on a management buffalo, they will still do the trick

Of course, for a dedicated dagga boy hunt, 400 gr will obviously be better.

Ideally the VZ-24 action would be drilled & tapped for a (preferably but not necessarily detachable) 1-6x24 scope and it would be just a matter of a few vertical clicks to move it from a 400 gr load to a 300 gr load.

Felt or perceived recoil is what the shooter thinks it is.

My .416 Taylor's felt recoil to me is closer to a similar weight .375 H&H than my .416 Remington. The .416 Taylor really is a high energy sweetheart of a cartridge! Now, don't ask me why I have a couple of .416 Remington’s and a .416 Rigby. My answer would be something like, "Because I can..."

I mentioned in my First Post that I had a story about acquiring my 416 Taylor. It’s not much of story l, but I’ll share it with you as it’s part of a dilemma I now have. Keep it and modify it for my needs or sell it and start over. Forgive me for the long post. I’ll try to be brief.

After lurking on AfricaHunting.com for a several weeks and getting the bug to restart my hunting pastime with an ultimate goal of a trip to Africa, I mentioned to my cousin that I wanted either a .375 or a .416. He contacted me a week or so later and told me of the widow of a good friend of his who was trying to sell her late husband’s guns and reloading equipment. It included a 416 Rigby. He mentioned BRNO but I mistakenly conflated that with CZ, and I had been looking for a CZ .375 or .416. I sped over there with cash in hand but found out after arriving it was a VZ-24, YZ series. It had been ‘sporterized’ with a newer stock and barrel. It was stamped 416, but that was it, and she wasn’t sure about the exact caliber except she thought it was a Rigby. She knew that it was her husband’s Africa rifle, and there were trophy mounts of Eland, Gemsbok, Kudu etc. to prove it. She said he made two trips over 4 years and never used the rifle again.

I knew it probably wasn’t a Rigby because the VZ-24 had a standard length action, but I made a second mistake of thinking it was a .416 Rem Mag, which would have been preferable to me over the Rigby anyway. She had no cartridges or anything that would help me, and she really looked like she needed to sell the gun, so I took it.

A few days later my cousin called with a new story. The gentleman and three friends had been told about four BRNO VZ-24s that were available. They bought them and had a local (Ft. Worth) gunsmith re-barrel all four to .416 TAYLOR!!! I don’t reload, hence my current quandary. The rifle is currently at a gunsmith who is making a lead cast of the action and will determine with 100% certainty what caliber it is. If the rifle is a Rem Mag, which I doubt, I’ll keep it. But if it’s Taylor, I’m not sure if I should sell it and start over or just go with it. Hendershot makes some good ammo and I could buy enough now to last me until I don’t hunt anymore.

I’m going to start a 3rd post to discuss what I’m planning on doing to this .416, or whatever DG rifle I end up with.

So…..

My gunsmith just contacted me and said the gun is in fact a .416 Rem Mag, and not a Taylor. Mixed emotions. I really like what I read about the .416 Taylor but since I’m not a reloader, the Rem Mag will be a better fit for me.

 

[deewayne2003]

Interesting. Thank you for the data. I’ve read and been told the Taylor was the more manageable of the 416s but I’m surprised by the difference between the Taylor and the 375 H&H. I’ve read several places where owners of both stated the Taylor and the 375 had similar felt recoil.





So…..

My gunsmith just contacted me and said the gun is in fact a .416 Rem Mag, and not a Taylor. Mixed emotions. I really like what I read about the .416 Taylor but since I’m not a reloader, the Rem Mag will be a better fit for me.

I would make sure and have the smith complete that .416 to include REM.

 

[KPinOKC]

I would make sure and have the smith complete that .416 to include REM.

Great idea. I have just communicated that to the gunsmith.