Politics

[mdwest]

You might want to relay this message to the Democrats and their constituents.....Trump IS a victim of the political warfare they brought to his door step, to try and take him out.
IMO- The day of nice guy politics are over. To defeat the enemy, you have to use their own tactics against them. Eye for an eye.....and some scorched earth politics.
Many entities in this world that deserve a great big middle finger salute.

You used the term warfare.. In that context trump is no victim.. to be a victim he would have to be an innocent bystander.. the fact of the matter is he engaged in a fight.. and he has gotten his ass handed to him over and over and over again in that fight...

Maybe its because he picked the wrong people to be on his team.. maybe its because he underestimated his enemy.. maybe he just sucks as a fighter... doesnt really matter does it.. the fact is he has lost many fights.. and doubling (even tripling) down on the same tactics and the same techniques isnt going to do him or the country any favors.. He's been chanting "lock her up" since before Clinton left the race the last time around.. making waves about putting political opponents in prison hasnt worked for him in the past.. but I suppose continuing down the same path is going to get him somewhere this time? The democrats are certainly getting a whole lot closer to putting him and his entourage in prison than he ever got to putting Clinton or anyone else on the other side in prison.. I dont suspect anything will change on that front whether he wins the next election or not.. the rest of the government simply wont support him.. not congress, not the judicial branch, not the federal law enforcement agencies, etc.. its all just silly banter that does nothing more than waste tax payer resources and time.. bread and circuses..

If he wants to actually do something.. the tactics and techniques need to change.. otherwise its just more of the same old shit just turned up on a louder volume..

as @PHOENIX PHIL pointed out earlier.. no one is saying that whats going on is right..

but when you engage in a fight and get kicked in the junk by a guy willing to fight dirty.. youre not a victim.. youre just a fight loser to a guy that plays dirty..

you also fail to address what was stated earlier by @PHOENIX PHIL about rising above.. at some point (hopefully an early one) you have to put the needs of the nation above personal agenda and vengeance...

No one is saying there shouldnt be accountability..

but biting off ones own nose to spite ones own face is not only self depreciating.. its frankly stupid..

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Like it or lump it, Trump will be the nominee. So then the next question is do you help to get him elected, or accept another four years of Democrat disaster? It really is as simple as that.

To pull out of the international stage nosedive that Biden created America will need a very strong president, someone who will immediately get attention and command respect. Trump will certainly get immediate attention, but the respect part will take work, a lot of work. If it were possible to inject him with wisdom it would be great, but swallow hard, he is who he is.

 

[Brent in Az]

I love it when the establishment gangs up on me.....LOL.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Like it or lump it, Trump will be the nominee. So then the next question is do you help to get him elected, or accept another four years of Democrat disaster? It really is as simple as that.

To pull out of the international stage nosedive that Biden created America will need a very strong president, someone who will immediately get attention and command respect. Trump will certainly get immediate attention, but the respect part will take work, a lot of work. If it were possible to inject him with wisdom it would be great, but swallow hard, he is who he is.

I personally believe that Donald will actually rise to the occasion. I know that statement is at odds with what a lot of you feel, but I am seeing some mellowing. Bear in mind that this is election season sort of, it is when candidates are daft anyway, but you compare his demeanor with what it was pre 2016 and pre 2020.

 

[mdwest]

I love it when the establishment gangs up on me.....LOL.

I suppose ignorance is bliss...

easy to love something when you purposefully choose to not actually know who or what youre talking about..

sounds a whole lot like how emotionally driven leftists think to me.. (ignore facts, just keep repeating the same unsubstantiated nonsense about the other side as often as you possibly can, convince yourself its truth, and continue to ignore facts..)...

 

[mdwest]

I personally believe that Donald will actually rise to the occasion. I know that statement is at odds with what a lot of you feel, but I am seeing some mellowing. Bear in mind that this is election season sort of, it is when candidates are daft anyway, but you compare his demeanor with what it was pre 2016 and pre 2020.

I dont doubt he has some measure of a chance of getting elected in 2024 (I think its small.. but there is a chance.. I also thought Bidens chances were small in 2020.. and was proven wrong..)...

I think the issue is getting elected again becomes vindication and validation for him.. and therefore he goes back to the same old TTP...

which means once again nothing really changes...

Obamacare/ACA will still stand.. federal law enforcement will still be running amok.. congress will remain in stalemate.. etc etc etc..

At the end of the day, the left absolutely hates him and will not negotiate on anything they perceive as a trump initiative.. and a significant number of elected and senior appointed (career) officials on the right wont support him either..

even if "the people" put him in office.. does anyone really believe that the legislative branch is actually going to fall in line and support him this time around any better than the last time?

does anyone really believe without the legislative branch and with the senior leadership in the military and federal law enforcement thats in place (Im not talking about the most senior appointed officials.. Im talking about the thousands upon thousands of GS15's, SES, senior field grade officers, etc) are just going to fall in line and change after 10-15 years of working in an entirely different manner?

The one hope I have is the impact another trump term could have on the judiciary... which has the ability to have decades long impact on the American way of life at large if the cards are played correctly..

But without the large bodies of government (State Dept, DOJ, DHS, etc willing to get in line).. and without congress backing him.. we're right back at 2018.. where nothing substantial gets accomplished..

Its going to take another "Reagan" to make that happen.. not just someone with the right ideas.. but someone with the ability to convince the other side that those ideas are right as well..

threats of prison terms and weaponizing the administration arent going to convince the other side of anything other than to dig into deep defensive positions, and to strike hard at every offensive opportunity they are given..

 

[Red Leg]

I dont doubt he has some measure of a chance of getting elected in 2024 (I think its small.. but there is a chance.. I also thought Bidens chances were small in 2020.. and was proven wrong..)...

I think the issue is getting elected again becomes vindication and validation for him.. and therefore he goes back to the same old TTP...

which means once again nothing really changes...

Obamacare/ACA will still stand.. federal law enforcement will still be running amok.. congress will remain in stalemate.. etc etc etc..

At the end of the day, the left absolutely hates him and will not negotiate on anything they perceive as a trump initiative.. and a significant number of elected and senior appointed (career) officials on the right wont support him either..

even if "the people" put him in office.. does anyone really believe that the legislative branch is actually going to fall in line and support him this time around any better than the last time?

does anyone really believe without the legislative branch and with the senior leadership in the military and federal law enforcement thats in place (Im not talking about the most senior appointed officials.. Im talking about the thousands upon thousands of GS15's, SES, senior field grade officers, etc) are just going to fall in line and change after 10-15 years of working in an entirely different manner?

The one hope I have is the impact another trump term could have on the judiciary... which has the ability to have decades long impact on the American way of life at large if the cards are played correctly..

But without the large bodies of government (State Dept, DOJ, DHS, etc willing to get in line).. and without congress backing him.. we're right back at 2018.. where nothing substantial gets accomplished..

Its going to take another "Reagan" to make that happen.. not just someone with the right ideas.. but someone with the ability to convince the other side that those ideas are right as well..

threats of prison terms and weaponizing the administration arent going to convince the other side of anything other than to dig into deep defensive positions, and to strike hard at every offensive opportunity they are given..

Your last paragraph is, I am convinced, exactly correct.

But let's say he does win, and and let's say he actually has coattails. Even if both houses were to become republican, he would still have to deal with that portion of the republican party that has no interest in playing along with his personal revenge games. Neither Barr nor Milley will or should be investigated. No one is going to be charged. Moreover, if either house reverts or remains democrat, then nothing meaningful will get done legislatively.

 

[Brent in Az]

I suppose ignorance is bliss...

easy to love something when you purposefully choose to not actually know who or what youre talking about..

sounds a whole lot like how emotionally driven leftists think to me.. (ignore facts, just keep repeating the same unsubstantiated nonsense about the other side as often as you possibly can, convince yourself its truth, and continue to ignore facts..)...

Your ignorance, is the fact that other people can have different opinions and ideologies that don't align with your own, or others around here, and then you label it as ignorance.....LOL. Nice try!
I'm not a member of the establishment hive mind.
I know exactly who and what I'm talking about, and I dont ignore so called facts. My interpretation of them may differ.

That's the typical behavior from people like you. Slinging mud at people from up on top of the soap box because they don't toe the line..LOL.

How's the view from up there?

 

[Brent in Az]

Hell...the Toadvine troll should be arriving any moment now....LOL

 

[mdwest]

Your ignorance, is the fact that other people can have different opinions and ideologies that don't align with your own, or others around here, and then you label it as ignorance.....LOL. Nice try!
I'm not a member of the establishment hive mind.
I know exactly who and what I'm talking about, and I dont ignore so called facts. My interpretation of them may differ.

That's the typical behavior from people like you. Slinging mud at people from up on top of the soap box because they don't toe the line..LOL.

How's the view from up there?

Actually (once again) you are completely wrong... and either unwilling to acknowledge facts.. or incapable of understanding them..

Search a few of my posts.. I actually have a substantially different opinion and ideology than many (if not most) here when it comes to politics.. if the libertarian party could ever get its act in line and put forth a candidate worth more than 1/3 of a rat shit, I'd very likely vote for them.. I am much more of a "stay the hell out of my business, and I'll stay the hell out of yours" kind of guy.. I loathe big government, and I hate government telling me how to live.. you dont violate my civil rights while exercising yours, and we're going to get along fine.. and I'll do my best not to violate your civil rights while exercising mine... I am also on a personal level EXTREMELY fiscally conservative, but socially a bit moderate... (again, I want to live how I want to live and be left alone.. while also affording others the ability to live how they want to live and leave them alone..)... By that system I am far from either a democrat or a republican in ideology... and certainly as far from an "establishment" member on either side as just about anyone could get.. and while I certainly have managed to scrape my way to the upper end of "middle class" over a 5 decade period of time.. that didnt come from a trust fund or an "established" family that opened doors and pathways for me.. I grew up very much on the lowest possible point of the "middle".. and my parents and grandparents spent their lifetimes crawling out of the poverty class.. we arent old school political, business, or familial "established" in any way, shape, or form.. hell, I havent even stayed in 1 single career field long enough to be "established" or "establishment" in any way.. I spent a decade as a soldier.. a decade as a cop.. and now a bit more than a decade in business.. certainly "working class" for the majority of my adult life..

but I digress.. you tend to act like you know who youre talking to when you clearly have not a clue..

your self righteous position and desire to name call those who dont agree with you "establishment" rather than actually arguing facts is a clear indication that you are unwilling to consider any ideology or opinion than your own.. everyone that doesnt agree with you is obviously wrong, whether you can actually present any facts to base your opinion on or not.

who exactly slung mud Brent? was it not you playing the "I love it when the establishment gangs up on me, lol" martyr card? dont like that you got called out on it? thats what you think mud slinging is? I dont mind assigning a title to that.. that appears a bit frail to me..

Where exactly (again, feel free to search some posts and quote me) have I told you or anyone else to toe any party line? Again, read the above.. I genuinely dont care what your position is on anything.. I simply want to know WHY someone thinks what they think.. and understand the FACTS.. as opposed to listening to emotionally driven blather..

What has been said, and I maintain remains true, is... you do a lot of squawking and noise making.. but rarely present anything to actually substantiate your position..

want people to agree with you on something? present a well constructed argument for that position.. that doesnt mean people are automatically going to agree with you.. but you'd certainly have a better chance of convincing someone you are right about something rather than just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative (without actually making a case for your position in the first place)..

 

[mdwest]

Hell...the Toadvine troll should be arriving any moment now....LOL

wasnt it you just 2 posts ago bemoaning mud slinging?

hypocrisy one of your strong suits?

 

[Brent in Az]

wasnt it you just 2 posts ago bemoaning mud slinging?

hypocrisy one of your strong suits?

Unlike you, I'm not mudslinging at anyone here. Louis Toadvine has a way of appearing at peculiar times. He/She/It, is a troll.

 

[Brent in Az]

Actually (once again) you are completely wrong... and either unwilling to acknowledge facts.. or incapable of understanding them..

Search a few of my posts.. I actually have a substantially different opinion and ideology than many (if not most) here when it comes to politics.. if the libertarian party could ever get its act in line and put forth a candidate worth more than 1/3 of a rat shit, I'd very likely vote for them.. I am much more of a "stay the hell out of my business, and I'll stay the hell out of yours" kind of guy.. I loathe big government, and I hate government telling me how to live.. you dont violate my civil rights while exercising yours, and we're going to get along fine.. and I'll do my best not to violate your civil rights while exercising mine... I am also on a personal level EXTREMELY fiscally conservative, but socially a bit moderate... (again, I want to live how I want to live and be left alone.. while also affording others the ability to live how they want to live and leave them alone..)... By that system I am far from either a democrat or a republican in ideology... and certainly as far from an "establishment" member on either side as just about anyone could get.. and while I certainly have managed to scrape my way to the upper end of "middle class" over a 5 decade period of time.. that didnt come from a trust fund or an "established" family that opened doors and pathways for me.. I grew up very much on the lowest possible point of the "middle".. and my parents and grandparents spent their lifetimes crawling out of the poverty class.. we arent old school political, business, or familial "established" in any way, shape, or form.. hell, I havent even stayed in 1 single career field long enough to be "established" or "establishment" in any way.. I spent a decade as a soldier.. a decade as a cop.. and now a bit more than a decade in business.. certainly "working class" for the majority of my adult life..

but I digress.. you tend to act like you know who youre talking to when you clearly have not a clue..

your self righteous position and desire to name call those who dont agree with you "establishment" rather than actually arguing facts is a clear indication that you are unwilling to consider any ideology or opinion than your own.. everyone that doesnt agree with you is obviously wrong, whether you can actually present any facts to base your opinion on or not.

who exactly slung mud Brent? was it not you playing the "I love it when the establishment gangs up on me, lol" martyr card? dont like that you got called out on it? thats what you think mud slinging is? I dont mind assigning a title to that.. that appears a bit frail to me..

Where exactly (again, feel free to search some posts and quote me) have I told you or anyone else to toe any party line? Again, read the above.. I genuinely dont care what your position is on anything.. I simply want to know WHY someone thinks what they think.. and understand the FACTS.. as opposed to listening to emotionally driven blather..

What has been said, and I maintain remains true, is... you do a lot of squawking and noise making.. but rarely present anything to actually substantiate your position..

want people to agree with you on something? present a well constructed argument for that position.. that doesnt mean people are automatically going to agree with you.. but you'd certainly have a better chance of convincing someone you are right about something rather than just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative (without actually making a case for your position in the first place)..

Sure thing, Princess. I'll get right on that!

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I don't know @Louis Toadvine at all, but I have found his contributions to be well thought out, whether I agree with his position or not. I haven't seen anything that makes me think "troll" at all. I rather hope he will chime in, if only for the above average writing skills he seems to possess.

Establishment hive mind? You mean the folks who frequently put together cogent arguments and see things through a realistic mind's eye? Do we have an 'establishment' on here? If so, can I join?

 

[AimSmall]

When dealing with politics, no matter who wins the Presidency - the good news/bad news is: that person will appoint literally thousands of his/her party members as the Cabinet, judges, military leaders, NASA, the Federal Reserve...a very long list of decision makers that will have a greater impact on your daily life than the President. In the case of Supreme Court justices, people who will affect the lives of your children and grandchildren.

Think long-term when you vote.

 

[NE 7x57]

Our apparent choices for President in 2024 make me wonder when we were sucked down the drain to the point where the only two apparent candidates are a loud mouthed, narcissistic, ass who apparently has never read a book or looked at a map and a doddering, corrupt, habitual liar, who struggles to combine words into a coherent sentence. This country has over 300 million people and this is the best we can do.

I long for and at the same time fear a 3rd option.

 

[Newboomer]

Hard to believe anyone would be surprised or dismayed by the latest high level appt in the DOI when, for the past 2 1/2 years, this has been going on with much publicity within in this admin.

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How disgustingly sick. Someone get me a bucket before i soil my carpet.

 

[WAB]

Zelensky probably knows his days could be numbered. If the Russians take total control of the Ukraine, Zelensky will only have a few options.

Die in battle.
Flee the country
End up being executed, or put in a Russian prison for life.

I don't think Putin's ego will allow anything but a complete victory

Are you kidding me???? At this point it looks much more
Likely that Putin will be facing those choices!

 

[mdwest]

Assume Trump wins the office in another year and immediately cuts off all aid to Ukraine…

That leaves Europe holding the bag to support Ukraine further…

Which they will certainly do… that is absolutely in their best interest…

It alienates the US from its European/NATO allies… which is not good for us…

But hey! We save a few bucks! (Sarcasm)

Either way, whether Trump is in office in January 2025, Biden is in office, or Marvin the Martian is in office… that’s a year and 3 months away… and another full fighting season will have passed…

I’d hardly call that numbered days or paint a picture of gloom and doom for Zelensky..

But another year of having to fund things on the Russian side.. and another year of combat losses for Russia.. that has the potential to have pretty significant consequences for Putin…

 

[Red Leg]

Zelensky probably knows his days could be numbered. If the Russians take total control of the Ukraine, Zelensky will only have a few options.

Die in battle.
Flee the country
End up being executed, or put in a Russian prison for life.

I don't think Putin's ego will allow anything but a complete victory

I would love to hear your considered analysis how Putin will achieve "complete victory." I obviously believe that is a uniquely uninformed assertion, but convince me. Show me how Putin or his military has the capability to "take control of Ukraine." And please, don't call me names or toss out a bunch of MAGA slogans. That will simply convince me I was correct with respect to your assertions. Even if Trump were totally complicit with helping Putin achieve his strategic goals, how does Putin actually do it?

In our arrogance, we forget it was Ukraine and its people that aspired to be part of Western Europe rather than be a cog in the Russian machine. It was Ukraine, using their own weapons and spending their own lives who brought the Russian Army to a bloody halt outside Kyiv and Karkiv. It was Zelensky, who on February 26, 2022, when offered escape from the country responded "I need ammunition, not a ride." It was his foreign minister who ended his diplomatic discussions in the US on the 24th to return to Ukraine to help Zelensky build a supportive Western coalition. It will be the Ukrainian people, not Donald J. Trump nor Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin who will have the final say in the fate of their country.

As @mdwest notes above, any meaningful decision by Trump to limit military support to Ukraine is at best 18 months away. He would then have to convince a lot of democrats to agree with him to overcome the majority of his own party who actually understand "America First" should mean jealously protecting our national interests wherever they are threatened - a Reaganesque concept the blindly loyal Trump crowd should mull over a bit before hopping on their candidate's revenge tour.

But I digress. Regardless to what heights Putin's ego may rise, explain to me how he achieves "complete victory."