Pick my broadhead - Cape Buffalo

[206moose]

Which heads are you referring to or is it all Grizzly stick heads including the Ashby?

The “forged” heads

 

[206moose]

For what it's worth, according to the owners, this issue was resolved by Grizzlystik last year.... There was a problem that they acknowledged and they changed the temper and the forging process to make the heads less brittle. I am not endorsing them one way or the other, and they were not my broadhead of choice when I did my Cape buffalo hunt in 2017 specifically because of these concerns. However, several of our clients have taken Cape buffalo with them this and last season with very good results.

I would certainly hope they addressed the issue. I used one of their forged heads on a moose hunt and the head broke. I still got enough penetration to get both lungs thanks to a 650 grain arrow with a high FOC. My picture is on their website.

 

[firehuntfish]

I would certainly hope they addressed the issue. I used one of their forged heads on a moose hunt and the head broke. I still got enough penetration to get both lungs thanks to a 650 grain arrow with a high FOC. My picture is on their website.

Awesome moose!

 

[Fritz Rabe]

Not wanting to blow my own pipe here but I have done more guiding for Cape Buffalo than most over 30 years and for me there are only two broadheads to choose from. The 180-210gr ORIGINAL German K or the 180-250gr Iron Will. I have seen them both do wonders and many others fail.

 

[BSO Dave]

Not wanting to blow my own pipe here but I have done more guiding for Cape Buffalo than most over 30 years and for me there are only two broadheads to choose from. The 180-210gr ORIGINAL German K or the 180-250gr Iron Will. I have seen them both do wonders and many others fail.

Interesting... I am very familiar with the original German Kinetics, but the Iron Will is a relatively new design and new company no....? What other designs have your hunters been using with success besides the two you mentioned? They could not all have been hunting with GK over 30 years. Which designs have failed and why?

 

[Fritz Rabe]

We did a lot of Buff years back with the 210gr Steelforce and it worked very well then.
The more recent Massaai, Ashby and a few others did have some success but also many failures. That ended with me putting many buffalo down with a rifle. I wont recommend them at all.

 

[firehuntfish]

The more recent Massaai, Ashby and a few others did have some success but also many failures.

I would also be very interested to know what exactly went wrong with all those many failures...? Were the broadheads breaking, or just not penetrating well? Poor penetration, as I am sure you would agree with your many years of experience, is due to a combination of many factors that are not necessarily the fault of the broadhead choice.

We had a client a couple of years back have poor results shooting the 315 gr. Ashby head, but the arrow shaft shattered where the ferrule met the broadhead. Turns out the client's arrow was a home-made build and nowhere nearly heavy enough, enough FOC, or strong enough to support the energy and momentum generated from a 315gr. broadhead up front... It was a perfect example that an arrow for this kind of game is only as strong as its weakest component, and precisely why we recommend an entire arrow blueprint rather than just any one particular component.

 

[206moose]

We did a lot of Buff years back with the 210gr Steelforce and it worked very well then.
The more recent Massaai, Ashby and a few others did have some success but also many failures. That ended with me putting many buffalo down with a rifle. I wont recommend them at all.

Any experience with cutthroat broad heads?

 

[Fritz Rabe]

The reason why so many broadheads fail is not because of bad materials used. It is because the broadhead is to long. Therefore, if it is used and shot at large African game with hard bone structures and there is any lateral movement of the arrow or if the arrow hits a bone at an angle, then it will break at the insert or if a collar or sleeve is used at the insert the blades will break.
to many people like to quote Ed Ashby on all buffalo experiments but they dont realize that he did all his testing with Trad equipment. What works for a slow and heavy trad arrow will not work out of a very heavy and relative fast compound setup.

 

[BSO Dave]

The reason why so many broadheads fail is not because of bad materials used. It is because the broadhead is to long. Therefore, if it is used and shot at large African game with hard bone structures and there is any lateral movement of the arrow or if the arrow hits a bone at an angle, then it will break at the insert or if a collar or sleeve is used at the insert the blades will break.
to many people like to quote Ed Ashby on all buffalo experiments but they dont realize that he did all his testing with Trad equipment. What works for a slow and heavy trad arrow will not work out of a very heavy and relative fast compound setup.

Hmmmm. I may have to disagree with some of your theories here especially in regard to arrow speed. While it is true that Ashby himself did most of his original testing back nearly 30 years ago with traditional equipment in his Natal Study, the bulk of his ongoing testing has included all sorts of bow and arrow combinations inclusive of long bows, recurves and compound bows.

You might be interested to read Ashby's latest published study from the link below. It contains lots of new, updated data and findings utilizing heavy draw modern compound bows. Although archery equipment has changed drastically, the physical findings don't stray far from the original results, and the current data shows arrow speed is not the critical component in overall penetration.

https://dangercloseoutdoors.com/12-factors

 

[Fritz Rabe]

Hmmmm. I may have to disagree with some of your theories here especially in regard to arrow speed. While it is true that Ashby himself did most of his original testing back nearly 30 years ago with traditional equipment in his Natal Study, the bulk of his ongoing testing has included all sorts of bow and arrow combinations inclusive of long bows, recurves and compound bows.

You might be interested to read Ashby's latest published study from the link below. It contains lots of new, updated data and findings utilizing heavy draw modern compound bows. Although archery equipment has changed drastically, the physical findings don't stray far from the original results, and the current data shows arrow speed is not the critical component in overall penetration.

https://dangercloseoutdoors.com/12-factors

No problem with disagreeing with me sir.
The fact that I tried to bring across was not the equipment used but the type of design and why it was designed in such a way for example the length of a broadhead that is used on heavy boned African animals.
No offence taken.

 

[BSO Dave]

No offence taken.

I am pleased you did not take offense, because certainly no offense was intended. Just a gentleman's disagreement based on different bowhunting experiences and observed results.

In regard to Ashby's theory of broadhead design, I certainly do not take Ashby's work as Gospel. However, the data he provides (especially his latest work) is a very credible resource because his testing is done utilizing widely recognized scientific methods and standards. His studies and experiments are based on basic physics and engineering principles which has revealed some compelling data that I have applied with great success in my own bow hunting experiences. Especially in recent years where I have come nearly full circle from shooting lighter, faster arrows back to slower, heavier arrow builds with above average FOCs. The drastic increase in penetration I have personally experienced with both mine and my wife's set-ups are really undeniable.

The reason why so many broadheads fail is not because of bad materials used. It is because the broadhead is to long. Therefore, if it is used and shot at large African game with hard bone structures and there is any lateral movement of the arrow or if the arrow hits a bone at an angle, then it will break at the insert or if a collar or sleeve is used at the insert the blades will break.

The pros & cons of a long, narrow versus a short, wider broadhead design applied on heavy-boned African game and Cape buffalo in particular, is certainly debatable. Ashby's claim is that a longer, narrower design has demonstrated to have less drag than a shorter, wider design. Less drag equals less momentum-robbing surface tension translating to better penetration. If I am understanding you correctly, the failures of these longer, narrower designs that you have witnessed are attributed to lateral movement of the arrow on impact which would be a tuning issue and not necessarily a broadhead design flaw. Failures or poor penetration due to improper tuning are no more a fault of the components than poor shot placement.

It's also important to consider the overall poundage draw of the bow into the equation. If the hunter is capable of drawing 80+ pounds, that makes up for a lot of KE that would neutralize any momentum loss generated from the friction of a wider broadhead design. Ashby's physical findings definitively suggest many more applicable mechanical advantages for those hunters who can only shoot lower poundage bows.

You also noted in an earlier post that you had good success with the Steelforce? Not sure which Steelforce design you liked, but all of the Steelforce designs that are solid, single bevel designs intended for big game are patterned as a long, narrow designs which are almost copycats of the Ashby design...? So, if it's the design and not the material, you have me a bit confused. Good discussion and debate in any case. I always find contrasting experiences beneficial as a learning tool assuming the data and methods used are consistent.

 

[Fritz Rabe]

I am pleased you did not take offense, because certainly no offense was intended. Just a gentleman's disagreement based on different bowhunting experiences and observed results.

In regard to Ashby's theory of broadhead design, I certainly do not take Ashby's work as Gospel. However, the data he provides (especially his latest work) is a very credible resource because his testing is done utilizing widely recognized scientific methods and standards. His studies and experiments are based on basic physics and engineering principles which has revealed some compelling data that I have applied with great success in my own bow hunting experiences. Especially in recent years where I have come nearly full circle from shooting lighter, faster arrows back to slower, heavier arrow builds with above average FOCs. The drastic increase in penetration I have personally experienced with both mine and my wife's set-ups are really undeniable.



The pros & cons of a long, narrow versus a short, wider broadhead design applied on heavy-boned African game and Cape buffalo in particular, is certainly debatable. Ashby's claim is that a longer, narrower design has demonstrated to have less drag than a shorter, wider design. Less drag equals less momentum-robbing surface tension translating to better penetration. If I am understanding you correctly, the failures of these longer, narrower designs that you have witnessed are attributed to lateral movement of the arrow on impact which would be a tuning issue and not necessarily a broadhead design flaw. Failures or poor penetration due to improper tuning are no more a fault of the components than poor shot placement.

It's also important to consider the overall poundage draw of the bow into the equation. If the hunter is capable of drawing 80+ pounds, that makes up for a lot of KE that would neutralize any momentum loss generated from the friction of a wider broadhead design. Ashby's physical findings definitively suggest many more applicable mechanical advantages for those hunters who can only shoot lower poundage bows.

You also noted in an earlier post that you had good success with the Steelforce? Not sure which Steelforce design you liked, but all of the Steelforce designs that are solid, single bevel designs intended for big game are patterned as a long, narrow designs which are almost copycats of the Ashby design...? So, if it's the design and not the material, you have me a bit confused. Good discussion and debate in any case. I always find contrasting experiences beneficial as a learning tool assuming the data and methods used are consistent.

Two things, maybe three. The Steelforce 210gr heads we used in the late 90's and early 2000's were not very long and only had a 1 and 8th width. It was the best there were those days. All steel with a vented blade. They were not single bevel. (Personally I think that hunters put to much into single vs double bevel)
I changed to the ORIGINAL German K heads when they came out the first time and today they are still a favorite.
The length of a head is a big disadvantage if a bone is hit on an angle. Then it breaks at the insert - lateral forces. That was what I meant. a Fishtailing arrow is tuning or form, nothing to do with design.
The new Iron Will heads are super strong, short and not to wide. The perfect head for big bone African game.

 

[firehuntfish]

(Personally I think that hunters put to much into single vs double bevel)

Hi Fritz, I agree to this extent.... On many occasions, I have seen single-bevels provide an advantage when used from lower poundage set-ups. The single-bevel design causes a forced rotation that is very visibly apparent in the wound channel or bone contacted.... With that being said, If you are shooting enough draw weight combined with a heavy arrow built with 25% foc or better, you probably wouldn't need the mechanical advantage provided from the forced rotation created by a single-bevel. The extra momentum generated by the combination of the KE from a higher poundage bow and the weight of the arrow seems to penetrate well regardless of a single or double-bevel design.... As a side note, single-bevels also help to force immediate flight rotation of the arrow as soon as it leaves the string. The single-bevel broadhead acts much like a front set of fletches on the arrow. This definitely helps with accuracy and quicker flight stability of the arrow which can be beneficial regardless... I have seen this effect multiple times in slow-motion video of the shot...

My overall observation has been that with clients shooting a bow in the 80lb.+ draw range with a total arrow weight of 850 grains or higher, nearly any arrow & broadhead design will penetrate big game well assuming they are both built with the components and specs that can hold up to that amount of energy without failing upon impact. However, with hunters shooting lower poundages (which now can very reasonably be done with the right arrow & broadhead combo), you do need to pay specific attention to the components to assure that you have a heavy-duty arrow with enough weight paired with the most efficient broadhead design or penetration will certainly suffer.

 

[206moose]

Two things, maybe three. The Steelforce 210gr heads we used in the late 90's and early 2000's were not very long and only had a 1 and 8th width. It was the best there were those days. All steel with a vented blade. They were not single bevel. (Personally I think that hunters put to much into single vs double bevel)
I changed to the ORIGINAL German K heads when they came out the first time and today they are still a favorite.
The length of a head is a big disadvantage if a bone is hit on an angle. Then it breaks at the insert - lateral forces. That was what I meant. a Fishtailing arrow is tuning or form, nothing to do with design.
The new Iron Will heads are super strong, short and not to wide. The perfect head for big bone African game.

That issue can be fixed by using a footer.

 

[Matt_WY]

Interesting thread. I switched to Valkyrie Jaggers this year. Will be using them this weekend in elk woods, in TX for hog hunting in Feb, then at Limcroma in May. They have been flying well for me with a 200gr head plus a 25gr insert up front. Very interested to see how they do on actual game!

 

[MSJ]

Can't decide which head I should use. All fly great. Killed a bison with the valkyrie head, but no kills with the other two. The valkyrie was amazing on the bison. I have read all the posts I can find, but still can't decide. Some say single bevel, others say GK or Iron will. Tell me which I should use! Thanks

1. Iron will 250
2. Valkyrie Blood eagle 250
3. Cutthroat 250 single bevel

Setup: Hoyt carbon defiant 27.5, 77lbs, FMJ dg total arrow weight of 840 gr at 216 fps. All heads fly perfect to 50 yards.

I plan to take a cape buffalo with my Ravin crossbow this summer. To insure adequate penetration I've selected the 600 grain 2-bladed Bishop broadhead. Combined with the proprietary 300 grain Ravin bolt my total arrow weight will be 900 grains. The bolt speed leaving my bow is 290 fps, generating 168 ft/lbs of kinetic energy (162 ft/lbs @ 40 yards), 1.16 lbs/second of momentum (1.14 lbs/second at 40 yards), and a penetration co-efficient of 195 (185 at 40 yards). Based on my research, all measures appear to exceed minimum requirements for cape buffalo (KE minimum=100fps,M=1.0, Penetration=95). My FOC =38.8% and I'm shooting 1" patterns at 50 years. While I've hunted cape buffalo before, this is my first time with a crossbow. The proprietary Ravin bolts have limited my options and forced me to use a very heavy broadhead but it's performing well at the range. Proper shot placement will obviously be critical to a clean kill. Does anyone else have experience with a cape buffalo crossbow setup and have any feedback on my planned setup? Thanks!

 

[H50]

MSJ- I'm interested in cape buffalo crossbow hunting as well so I appreciate the question. Who are you hunting with this summer?

 

[MSJ]

MSJ- I'm interested in cape buffalo crossbow hunting as well so I appreciate the question. Who are you hunting with this summer?

I’m hunting with Wintershoek/Johnny Vivier Safaris. I’ve hunted with them a few times before and my brother has hunted with them for years-Great outfitters and guides. Johnny was awarded International PH of the year at last year’s SCI annual convention in Reno. I was supposed to hunt with them in Limpopo in August but had to postpone my trip to next summer due to a last minute work issue. Let me know what you think of my crossbow setup. Lots of information on traditional bow hunting set ups but with a 20” Ravin crossbow bolt that must be used to protect your warranty there is only 300 grains of weight. There are very few broadhead options out there above 300 grains and 600 grain total weight is too light according to Ashby and other experts. Thatbis why I jumped to the 600 grain Bishop broadhead for 900 grains of total weight. With the crossbow shooting the heavy arrow at 290 FPS I should have plenty of penetrations and potentially a total pass through. I was worried about accuracy with such a heavy broadhead but the Ravin is shooting extremely tight patterns.

 

[H50]

I’m hunting with Wintershoek/Johnny Vivier Safaris. I’ve hunted with them a few times before and my brother has hunted with them for years-Great outfitters and guides. Johnny was awarded International PH of the year at last year’s SCI annual convention in Reno. I was supposed to hunt with them in Limpopo in August but had to postpone my trip to next summer due to a last minute work issue. Let me know what you think of my crossbow setup. Lots of information on traditional bow hunting set ups but with a 20” Ravin crossbow bolt that must be used to protect your warranty there is only 300 grains of weight. There are very few broadhead options out there above 300 grains and 600 grain total weight is too light according to Ashby and other experts. Thatbis why I jumped to the 600 grain Bishop broadhead for 900 grains of total weight. With the crossbow shooting the heavy arrow at 290 FPS I should have plenty of penetrations and potentially a total pass through. I was worried about accuracy with such a heavy broadhead but the Ravin is shooting extremely tight patterns.

I know Jerry at South Shore Archery makes custom made bolts of heavy weight but they would probably nullify your warranty with Ravin if that is a concern. Which model of Ravin are you going to use? Also what kind of practice target are you using that can handle a 600g broadhead?