Parker Hale 404 Jeffrey Has Arrived

BeeMaa

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Nice addition to the TGE (Toby Gun Exchange).
I thought for sure this one would end up on a bakkie for your next safari.
 

John Camp

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Is it for sale yet?
 

TOBY458

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Is it for sale yet?
Of course! If the money is right....
Knowing myself, I'll probably sell it to help fund another hunt. If I were to keep it, I'd want to put a 3 position safety on it like a Winchester 70. But since I already have a safe full of Winchester 70s in appropriate calibers, I doubt I'll ever bother with customizing this rifle. I do love the looks of the 404 Jeffrey cartridge though! I bought 3 boxes of Hornady factory loads, but haven't fired the rifle yet. If I decide to sell it, I probably won't fire it.
 
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John Camp

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Of course! If the money is right....
Knowing myself, I'll probably sell it to help fund another hunt. If I were to keep it, I'd want to put a 3 position safety on it like a Winchester 70. But since I already have a safe full of Winchester 70s in appropriate calibers, I doubt I'll ever bother with customizing this rifle. I do love the looks of the 404 Jeffrey cartridge though! I bought 3 boxes of Hornady factory loads, but haven't fired the rifle yet. If I decide to sell it, I probably won't fire it.
Dude that would kill me. If I bought it, I would have to shoot it. Then I would never sell it.
 

TOBY458

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Dude that would kill me. If I bought it, I would have to shoot it. Then I would never sell it.
Well, seeing that I have a Winchester 70 in both 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag, in the safe that I've not fired yet, I'd say I'm behind! The 404 was kind of an impulse buy, so if I get the right offer I'd sell it. But I have no doubt I can get my money back out of it, even if I do decide to shoot it.
 

TOBY458

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I shot the 404 this evening. Ran three rounds of Hornady through it with iron sights only. All three shots were center black at 25 yards. Feeds and ejects very smoothly. Recoil is stout but very manageable. I think this might be a keeper!
 

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Ha, I knew it!

Good for you.
 

One Day...

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Congratulations TOBY458!

Just one thought: Parker Hale rifles were notorious for splitting their stock at the rear of the tang in the 70's and 80's because the inletting was not relieved there. If the rifle front recoil lug is glass bedded, the risk diminishes considerably, but it is worth checking that the tang does not dig into the wood at the top of the wrist :)

I agree re. putting a bolt-mounted firing pin-blocking safety on it (y)

Maybe a new recoil pad too, Decelerators are way better than the old rubber ones, and the rubber may be half way cocked by age anyway ;)

By the way, I agree with sestoppelman, it is most likely a Santa Barbara action, and they are every bit as good as the Zastava or Brno actions, forged steel and so on... Santa Barbara are actually "truer" Mauser actions than Zastava because they retain the C-collar in the front bridge. This deflects gases better in case of a rupture case than the Zastava internal collar cut on both sides. A lot of top European custom shops used the Santa Barbara actions: Dumoulin, Francotte, etc.
 
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TOBY458

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Congratulations TOBY458!

Just one thought: Parker Hale rifles were notorious for splitting their stock at the rear of the tang in the 70's and 80's because the inletting was not relieved there. If the rifle front recoil lug is glass bedded, the risk diminishes considerably, but it is worth checking that the tang does not dig into the wood at the top of the wrist :)

I agree re. putting a bolt-mounted firing pin-blocking safety on it (y)

Maybe a new recoil pad too, Decelerators are way better than the old rubber ones, and the rubber may be half way cocked by age anyway ;)

By the way, I agree with sestoppelman, it is most likely a Santa Barbara action, and they are every bit as good as the Zastava or Brno actions. A lot of top European custom shops used the Santa Barbara actions: Dumoulin, Francotte, etc.
Yes I looked at this when I first got the rifle in. There is a small amount of space behind the tang where the wood does not make contact. The recoil lug is glass bedded with a steel block bedded into the stock. Also there is a front recoil lug on the barrel. The recoil pad is indeed hard rubber, and could stand to be replaced, even though it's in perfect shape.
Overall a very well put together rifle.
 

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Nice rifle do you know how many rounds the magazine will hold? My old Jefferies and my old Rigby will both only hold three. Wish they held 4 or even 5! The extractors will not snap over a round up the spout.
 

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Nice rifle do you know how many rounds the magazine will hold? My old Jefferies and my old Rigby will both only hold three. Wish they held 4 or even 5! The extractors will not snap over a round up the spout.
It holds three in the magazine. To load a 4th round, I push it down in the magazine just far enough until the extractor will pick it up, then push it on into the chamber. I may modify the extractor to snap over the rim though. If a cartridge ever gets ahead of the extractor when chambering a round, and it won't snap over it, you're screwed.
 

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Very nice .404 Jeffery.
 

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Nice rifle, The 9.3x62 that I took on our last safari was built on a parker hale 30/06. Nice action that is solid and yours sounds like a keeper.
 

One Day...

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It holds three in the magazine. To load a 4th round, I push it down in the magazine just far enough until the extractor will pick it up, then push it on into the chamber. I may modify the extractor to snap over the rim though. If a cartridge ever gets ahead of the extractor when chambering a round, and it won't snap over it, you're screwed.
That is true, but the other side of the argument is that if the extractor can snap over a cartridge head on the way in, it can also snap over the cartridge head on the way out and fail to extract a stuck case...

This is why Paul Mauser designed his extractor that way: truly foolproof extraction. In the 1890's, when he designed the action that culminated in the Mauser 98 (for 1898), stuck cases had been a bad issue for years with soft copper cases loaded with black powder. Strong extraction was critical. Also notable, is the fact that military rifles in those days (and for much longer after that) had a full length rod in the forearm under the barrel, so a case pushed into the chamber accidentally ahead of the extractor could be easily pushed out...

So, today, which is best? Bevel the extractor so it can snap over a cartridge head if one gets ahead of the extractor, but admittedly loose virtually infallible extraction? Or, keep the extractor as designed and never worry about extraction, but be careful not to mistakenly push a cartridge in the chamber ahead of the extractor and get it stuck in the chamber?

To each their own poison, but, admittedly, with a clean chamber and good quality brass nowadays there is little chance to get a hard extraction, therefore, many argue that the need for the Mauser foolproof extraction is obsolete. That is until they reload a little too hot and they get a stuck case in the field...

My own experience with factory ammo and hunting rifles is that just tilting the rifle barrel up and tapping/slamming the stock butt on the ground will make a cartridge pushed in the chamber ahead of the extractor fall out, but I certainly believe that a tight or "competition" chamber and fire-formed cases only neck-sized during reloading could result in the need for a rod to get them out. One option could be to have a 6" section of rod in the backpack and drop it in the barrel. I would think that it would hit the cartridge with enough momentum to pop it out...

Ah, decisions, decisions... :)

PS: by the way I have never seen a correctly built CRF push a cartridge in the chamber without grabbing it, because the bolt itself, not the extractor, pushes the cartridge out of the magazine, and the extractor is already ahead of the cartridge head at that time, but I am pretty sure that one could make it happen if intent on it, or if panicking during the reload. The more classic cases are: poor rechambering jobs where feeding rails are not profiled correctly for the new cartridge and cartridges popping out of the magazine ahead of the bolt during reload; or people reloading a single round and forgetting to put it down in the magazine before closing the bolt...
 
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TOBY458

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That is true, but the other side of the argument is that if the extractor can snap over a cartridge head on the way in, it can also snap over the cartridge head on the way out and fail to extract a stuck case...

This is why Paul Mauser designed his extractor that way: truly foolproof extraction. In the 1890's, when he designed the action that culminated in the Mauser 98 (for 1898), stuck cases had been a bad issue for years with soft copper cases loaded with black powder. Strong extraction was critical. Also notable, is the fact that military rifles in those days (and for much longer after that) had a full length rod in the forearm under the barrel, so a case pushed into the chamber accidentally ahead of the extractor could be easily pushed out...

So, today, which is best? Bevel the extractor so it can snap over a cartridge head if one gets ahead of the extractor, but admittedly loose virtually infallible extraction? Or, keep the extractor as designed and never worry about extraction, but be careful not to mistakenly push a cartridge in the chamber ahead of the extractor and get it stuck in the chamber?

To each their own poison, but, admittedly, with a clean chamber and good quality brass nowadays there is little chance to get a hard extraction, therefore, many argue that the need for the Mauser foolproof extraction is obsolete. That is until they reload a little too hot and they get a stuck case in the field...

My own experience with factory ammo and hunting rifles is that just tilting the rifle barrel up and tapping/slamming the stock butt on the ground will make a cartridge pushed in the chamber ahead of the extractor fall out, but I certainly believe that a tight or "competition" chamber and fire-formed cases only neck-sized during reloading could result in the need for a rod to get them out. One option could be to have a 6" section of rod in the backpack and drop it in the barrel. I would think that it would hit the cartridge with enough momentum to pop it out...

Ah, decisions, decisions... :)

PS: by the way I have never seen a correctly built CRF push a cartridge in the chamber without grabbing it, because the bolt itself, not the extractor, pushes the cartridge out of the magazine, and the extractor is already ahead of the cartridge head at that time, but I am pretty sure that one could make it happen if intent on it, or if panicking during the reload. The more classic cases are: poor rechambering jobs where feeding rails are not profiled correctly for the new cartridge and cartridges popping out of the magazine ahead of the bolt during reload; or people reloading a single round and forgetting to put it down in the magazine before closing the bolt...
I had a Kimber 8400 30/06 do it once while I was deer hunting. Had to walk back to the truck and find something to drop down the barrel to knock the stuck case out. If this had happened in a critical situation, it could've been catastrophic.
If the extractor is tensioned correctly, it would seem you could have the best of both worlds. All my other rifles have extractors that will snap over the rim, and if you pull hard on the cartridge while it's under the extractor, it won't budge.
 

One Day...

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If the extractor is tensioned correctly, it would seem you could have the best of both worlds. All my other rifles have extractors that will snap over the rim, and if you pull hard on the cartridge while it's under the extractor, it won't budge.

That is likely a good compromise (ah, this word again!), especially if you use the correct way to load an additional round in the barrel over a full magazine, which is indeed as you describe:
To load a 4th round, I push it down in the magazine just far enough until the extractor will pick it up, then push it on into the chamber.

That way you eliminate the risk of breaking the extractor, which is the unavoidable consequence, sooner or later, of snapping it over a cartridge head every time you start a hunt...

Did you ever elucidate why the problem with the Kimber happened? That is rather uncommon for a correct size and correctly tensioned extractor to have this issue... Did you push feed a round expecting the extractor to snap over it only to discover it would not? That is how I discovered this characteristic of the Mauser extractor. It was in the 1970's during my mid teens, in the French Alps, shooting a Mauser 98K liberated from German occupation troops 25 years earlier when the village men started local fights in 1944 after D Day... I also shot a Lee-Enfield .303 SMLE parachuted by the Brits to arm said village men. Love both rifles to this day. The 10 round detachable magazine on the SMLE was really nice, but the Mauser was way more accurate. But I digress...
 
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TOBY458

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That is likely a good compromise (ah, this word again!), especially if you use the correct way to load an additional round in the barrel over a full magazine, which is indeed as you describe:


That way you eliminate the risk of breaking the extractor, which is the unavoidable consequence, sooner or later, of snapping it over a cartridge head every time you start a hunt...

Did you ever elucidate why the problem with the Kimber happened? That is rather uncommon for a correct size and correctly tensioned extractor to have this issue... Did you push feed a round expecting the extractor to snap over it only to discover it would not? That is how I discovered this characteristic of the Mauser extractor. It was in the 1970's during my mid teens, in the French Alps, shooting a Mauser 98K liberated from German occupation troops 25 years earlier when the village men started local fights in 1944 after D Day... I also shot a .303 SMLE parachuted by the Brits to arm said village men. Love both rifles to this day. The 10 round detachable magazine on the SMLE was really nice, but the Mauser was way more accurate. But I digress...
That particular Kimber had a bad tendency to not grab the round out of the magazine when you pushed the bolt forward. The 8400 action is best suited for magnum cartridges, that sit up higher in the raceway. They changed this later on when they went to the 84L action for 30/06 based cartridges. If I recall correctly, I didn't try to single load a cartridge. I think the cartridge popped up in front of the extractor when I tried to chamber a round. I sold the rifle soon after, so not sure if it ever happened again.
 

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Classic issue: wrong cartridge for the feeding rails geometry (n)

That is especially true when feeding rails designed to handle a belted case (.300/.375 H&H parent case) are used with smaller diameter, non-belted cartridges. The narrower unbelted standard cartridge pops out of the magazine where the wider belted cartridge would have still been retained by the rails. The entire timing of the controlled round feeding sequence is voided... :(

There is a pretty good reason why Paul Mauser designed different feeding rails geometries, and different magazine geometries for different cartridges... ;)

It is endlessly interesting to me how engineering issues that were understood and resolved 120 years ago get ignored by modern gun makers... Different machining of the feeding rails for different cartridges? Nah, not needed! Too expensive to machine one action for one cartridge! And this is assuming that they even know that Mauser had different feeding rails for different cartridges... Then we wonder why the same action never feeds well anything, from unbelted standard cases, through belted H&H parent cases, to Rigby, Jeffery, Gibbs etc. cases :whistle:
 

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98 extractors also cam out away from the rim as the bolt is closed and cam back in towards the rim as it is opened, a few thou" would greatly assist the extractor to ride over the rim while preventing it from somehow failing to grab the rim on extraction
 

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